Does taking 4 years of lforiegn anguage in HS really work?

Parent Cafe
1

<p>I know that taking a foriegn language is good. I am wodnering though, how effective the way that HS teach languages really is.</p>

<p>So here are my queries:</p>

<p>How many of your kids who took all four year in school, how many actually can speak the language fluently?</p>

<p>How many can read it well enough to say read a magazine or novel?</p>

<p>How many plan on continuing with that language in college"</p>

<p>WOuld your D have preferered a different language and which one?</p>

<p>Why did student pick the HS language?</p>

<p>And for those with kids in college:</p>

<p>Is the way the lanugage is taught in college better/worse than HS? Is it more/less effective?</p>

<p>I ask these because, after seeing so many kids at my Ds school quit a foriegn language after three years, mostly becaust they felt they really cou;dn't speak it well enough to warrant another year of learning grammar.</p>

<p>I always wondered in foriegn languages should be taught more like how a child learns it, words, then writing, and why can't there be a way to teach so you can actually really speak it after three years of a class everyday for nine months. I thought it was my girls teachers and the way it was taught in their school, but with all these kids taking a foriegn language for 3-4 years, you would think we would have a more bilingual population than we do. Sure some excel, for some its natural, but is our method of teaching lanuage really that good</p>

<p>how is english taught in other countries? Do they use our method or is it a more natural way or learning?</p>

2

<p>An addendum: I always thought for my D in particular, if they had started just talking the languages, french and spanish, and not having to be so concerned about writing, having perfect grammar, using more phrases, etc, that they would have probably stuck with the languages longer, as they would have actually been able to go to Mexico and have a simple conversation sooner than they ded. Well, for one did, that never actually happened.</p>

<p>She hated the way language was taught, for her speaking it, play acting for the first year, and then going into reading and writing would have been a much better system, just like little kids learn to speak a second language at home, its a verbal and aural, at least for the first few years.</p>

3

<p>Both of my kids took French in HS (D from Fr 1 all the way to AP French Lit and now as a minor in college; S is currently a junior and taking IB French) but that’s because I am French originally and so there was that incentive. But all of my S’s friends who started French with him dropped out after 3 years.<br>
I agree that there is too much emphasis on grammar and written French. I remember my D having to do written exercises using complicated, low frequency grammatical structures when she couldn’t master some simpler, more useful ones.
The new books and methods that have been adopted are fine, with more emphasis on spoken everyday French but the teachers seem to continue teaching the old fashionned way. And since language classes are packed with up to 30 students, there aren’t many opportunities with practicing speaking.
I was taught English the same way and I didn’t speak fluently until I made it my major in college and stayed in England for a year.</p>

4

<p>That is my sense. I think for a foreign language, having a two track system would have done wonders for my girls, neither of them took to their respective languages easily.</p>

<p>If she had been able to opt for a “remdial” (hate that phrase but can’t think of another) language as a freshman, say one that was all speaking, role playing, games, etc, I know she would have learned more useful words, phrases, to use her language for travel, simple translations, etc, than she got from three long years. She got Bs in the classes, but after three years, you would think she would have gotten at least as much as one of those berlitz classes. It was basically three wasted years. Culturely it was great, but practically, she and so many others didn’t really retain enough or learn enough the lanugage in any real sense to make it worth the time spent.</p>

5

<p>And lest anyone misunderstands, i think learning a second language is really important, useful and a lifelong skill. I am not saying don’t encourange it or anything like that. I just wonder if the methods used have the impact we want them to.</p>

6

<p>D started studying French in 8th grade and continued through AP French Language her senior year. She was the only one in her class to do so. She was very fortunate to take the AP course through Virtual Virginia and had an absolutely phenomenal teacher. They did recordings, had sessions where the students all conversed with the teacher, had individual phone calls with the teacher weekly and did a lot of writings. She did well enough to be placed in 300 level French in college and so far loves her class. There are 15 students and they are focusing intensely on the reading and analysis of texts- poetry, theater, and prose. There are five sections and they are all full. This is the “weed-out” course for majors. D hopes to minor in French. </p>

<p>D can definitely read any magazine; reads Figaro and Le Monde online; watches TV5 regularly; really happy she stuck with it. All in all, I feel the instruction she received was good as a “building block” but it wasn’t until that 5th year that it all came together. I studied French in college to go along with my history degree and so encouraged that language because if she ran into problems, it was something I could help her through. That never happened, but we spent a lot of time in casual conversation around the house which I think was really helpful. </p>

<p>I think more and more, schools emphasize Spanish as a second language. I agree that more time needs to be spent on the simpler, useful grammatical structures. But really, you need to get to that 5th year to really appreciate everything you’ve studied. Too many kids give up too early.</p>

7

<p>Need advice on HS curriculum for foreign language! My son has been a good A - B student to date and his average is a B+. However, he has a hard time with foreign language classes. Is it OK for him to do two years of a foreign language ( Spanish 1 and 2 ) in highschool OR does he need a third year?? I am worried about him taking Spanish 3 (very challenging at our HS) in his all important junior year. Advice???
Should he just do two years of foreign language or is that third year very important ( I’m afraid he’ll get a C in Spanish level 3). Lastly, could he take no language his junior year and then try Latin 1 his senior year?? Suggestions??? thanks</p>

8

<p>I think the key is immersion. My son got a 5 on the AP Spanish exam without being fluent. But then he sat in on AP Spanish a second time with a different teacher and became dramatically better reader, speaker, and writer.</p>

<p>The difference was the teachers’ styles. The first teacher was what I would call traditional; the kids spoke Spanish in class and did vocabulary-building exercises for homework. But the second teacher really immersed the kids in the language, requiring them to speak only Spanish with him both in and outside of class, and assigning both reading and listening from contemporary media, as opposed to standard textbook assignments.</p>

<p>Consider that, like most high school teachers, a typical foreign language teacher is not an expert in the subject. The rare gem who really knows the language can immerse your child in it, but most will only impart a cursory knowledge. In college they are much more likely to learn from a true expert, and then fluency should come relatively quickly as long as the student has the aptitude.</p>

9

<p>My son is in his fourth year of German and can speak it but does better at reading and listening, writing. His German teacher is German but has lived in the US for over 20 years. She really loves to show the German culture and get the kids involved in all things German related.</p>

<p>On the first day of his class this year; there are only 8 kids taking German IV. She tells all the students that she can tell this is an option year because all the “non serious” students dropped after German III was completed. My son decided not to tell her he is only taking it because, for him, this is an easy class and he will probably get a A with a minimum amount of study.</p>

<p>I too think it’s all about the way the teacher teaches the language. His German teacher speaks it in class but also does a little English to help things along (as needed) and more so in the beginning class.</p>

10

<p>That was were my daughter was. She struggled with Spanish for the third year and she and probably 60% did not take that 4th year. Why should it take 5 years to learn the basics of a language and if so many kids quit, doesnt that say something about the systems used?</p>

<p>My other D is taking French in College. She skipped French her senior year, and is kind of class in college where she said seems most of the kds in her class did the same, three years, and some even four, but are in a step just above french 1. After three or four years, you would think more kids could speak french. c’est la vie</p>

11

<p>Immersion does wonders. My S was in a language immersion elementary school, then carried forward with a class each year in Spanish in MS. As a HS freshman he took Spanish 3; as a sophomore he took AP Spanish Language and aced a 5. He decided not to take AP Spanish Lit since he’s tracking for a math/science major, so loaded up there instead.</p>

12

<p>I took four years of high school French. Ended up in AP mostly because I skipped French 3 to avoid a teacher I disliked, I really didn’t belong there. I could sort of read French, but I couldn’t produce anything that wasn’t riddled with grammatical mistakes. I was always a B student. I took a gap year and learned to speak French fluently. For me immersion was certainly the key, but I also felt like something got turned on in my brain.</p>

<p>When I got to college I took German - which certainly has almost no relation to French, but I found it much easier. I actually thought our German grammar book was pretty poor and we learned to say some really dumb things. There was one bit about some guy who “disappeared without a trace”. But boy did we whiz through grammar. By the end of the year we were reading a novel by Durrenmatt. I took a monthlong summer course at a Goethe Institute and another semester in college. Years later it all came back when dh decided to do a post-doc in Germany. I’d say that college course covered about the same amount of material as three years of high school. By the way all the French teachers at my school except one (the one I was avoiding) were native speakers, while my first German teacher in college was not. </p>

<p>While in Germany I took an Italian course. I could read magazines by the end of a semester due to the similarities with French. We did travel in Italy several times while in Germany, so I did get to practice what I’d learned.</p>

13

<p>If I could just go off track a bit, the minute Son had to take his college foreign language placement exam, it dawned on me that our schools’ way of handling foreign languages is more screwed up than I had even imagined. For the normal and distinguished diplomas, the state requires three years of the same foreign language. Most kids start this in 8th grade, meaning they are finished in 10th…meaning that when they take that college placement exam, they haven’t had the language in two solid years…so then they place out of little or none of the language. They should tell kids that if they have no intention of taking more than three years, they should take them in grades 10-12.</p>

14

<p>As a student, I can say that after three years of high school French and a few light years of middle school French I’m reasonably fluent. The college course I’m in now isn’t very hard at all, and while I enjoy it, I think high school is a much better place to begin and get generally fluent-ish with the language.</p>

15

<p>Both kids took four years of HS language.</p>

<p>1) I don’t know that any HS curriculum will result in “fluency”, even an AP course.</p>

<p>2) Well, if you call “reading” the AP paperbacks, novels, then I guess yes. </p>

<p>3) Yes, both did/are.</p>

<p>4) Huh? D vs. S? Different from what? Different than HS offerings? Different language in college?</p>

<p>5) Our public HS only offers two languages, one of which Spanish.</p>

<p>Both kids taking in college, and yes it’s different. The Rassias method includes Drill, sometimes at 7:45 am! :D</p>

16

<p>I took two years of FL…quit because it was a joke…</p>

17

<p>All 3 of my D’s took Spanish. D1 took 2 years after 2 years of Latin. Switched because Latin 3 conflicted with an AP that she wanted. We (her parents) never saw the point of Latin in the first place. Chose Spanish because she was looking at health care careers and thought it would be useful. Took same in college to meet language gen ed requirements. Tested out of Spanish 1 and took Spanish 2. Certainly not fluent. Can read some Spanish. D2 and D3 both had 4 years of high school Spanish. To me it did not appear that they were being challenged. My dim memories of 3 years of high school French included reading novels and more writing that my D’s were getting in their fourth year Spanish class. Both chose Spanish because it the language that they would most likely use later in life. Both are taking Spanish in college this year (different schools) .At the college level one tested into Spanish 3 and one into Spanish 4. Both felt that the placement tests focused heavily on grammar and verb tenses/conjugation which is what their high school teacher emphasized. He did not emphasize vocab as he said that is the easiest thing to pick up when immersed in a foreign language. Both were top students in high school but are far from fluent in Spanish. The D in Spanish 3 feels like she is average in ability compared to the rest of her college class. The D in Spanish 4 says everyone else is fluent and feels overwhelmed. They both feel the pace is very fast.</p>

18

<p>This past year, I took an education class called Fundamentals of Bilingual Education. I learned that for most children in the US learning English as a second language, it takes 5-7 years to achieve fluency. Considering that these children are often immersed in English for at least half of the school day and often have significant exposure to English outside of the classroom, it’s hardly surprising that our high school students don’t achieve fluency in a foreign language with less than 5 hours a week of instruction.</p>

<p>I have worked with high school foreign exchange students for many years. Most of those who arrived in the US with excellent English had begun learning the language in 4th or 5th grade. Not only had they had many years of instruction, they also began learning English when their brains were still “programmed” for language acquisition. Some of these students, by age 17, were fluent in 3 or 4 languages. Also, the trick to learning languages is to actually use them. If the US really wants children to learn other languages, then instruction must begin much sooner, and more opportunities to communicate in other languages must be fostered.</p>

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<p>My attitude is influenced by my own experience, and that of my kids:</p>

<p>Me: </p>

<p>In 7th grade, I started taking both Latin and Spanish. At the same time, I was taking Hebrew (and had been since 1st grade), three times a week, and I was studying Russian at home with a Linguaphone set. I dropped the Russian and Hebrew after that year, but continued with Latin and Spanish. I far, far preferred the systematic way Latin was taught, and found my Spanish class mostly inane and impossibly slow. By spring of 8th grade, we were reading Virgil in Latin, and were still doing stupid conversational exercises in Spanish.</p>

<p>My school didn’t offer Latin past 8th grade. I skipped two years of Spanish, and went into a literature-focused course (not AP) in 9th grade. I loved it. I spent 10th grade living in Spain, taking some courses in Spanish and some in English. It was Barcelona, though, and what language you spoke was political. Kids my age would refuse to talk to me in Spanish. I took half a year of Catalan, which helped a lot. By the end of the year, I was reasonably fluent in Spanish, had taken the Spanish Lit AP and Achievement Test.</p>

<p>In 11th grade, I took Golden Age Spanish Poetry at the local university, and started French. All my friends were in French IV, so I went into French IV. The deal was that no one would expect me to do anything until after Christmas. I continued with AP French Lit the next year, and got a 5 on that test. I started reading Proust in March, and finished the 8 volumes of A la recherche du temps perdus over the summer.</p>

<p>I never took a Spanish course in college. I took several French literature courses.</p>

<p>I am no longer truly fluent as a Spanish speaker or writer, although I was in Spain last year and got lots of compliments on my Spanish, and have occasionally done things like negotiate legal documents in Spanish. I can read fluently, though, and can understand conversation, movies, plays, songs pretty well (sometimes I have to listen a few times to get all of it). I was never really fluent as a speaker or writer of French, but I can do OK. My reading ability in French is as good as my Spanish, my listening ability a little less so. About half of my pleasure reading is either in French or Spanish. In Spanish, especially, I have read almost every contemporary novel you may have heard of. My French reading tends to split between contemporary and 19th century novels, and some history and theory (e.g., Levi-Strauss, Roland Barthes).</p>

<p>I loved loved loved every aspect of my language education other than the first couple of years of Spanish. </p>

<p>Kid 1:</p>

<p>Started French in 7th grade, Latin in 8th. In 10th grade, was taking a combined Latin/History course that used original materials in Latin. It was fabulous, she was learning a lot. French was inane – three months to read Le petit prince. She was reading Baudelaire and Camus on her own at home.</p>

<p>Then she switched schools, and she couldn’t take both Latin and French. She got bad vibes from the Latin teacher, and in French they were going to be reading Le petit prince, which made her want to vomit. She didn’t take any language in 11th grade, then took AP French Language in 12th. It was a terrible class, no one could speak worth a darn, lots of conflict between the class and the teacher. She and one other kid were the only ones who actually passed the course, although the teacher was convinced to award Cs for effort. She got a 3 on the AP, and was completely turned off.</p>

<p>In college she placed out of the language requirement on the placement test, but had to take a year of French for her major. She did, and hated every minute of it. It was the same grammar and vocabulary she had been studying since 9th grade. She will not speak in French, and no longer reads it.</p>

<p>Kid 2:</p>

<p>Started Spanish in 7th grade, added Latin in 8th. Loved Latin, so-so on Spanish. Switched schools in 9th, sat in on Spanish and Latin classes and knew that Spanish would be awful there. Took 4 years of Latin, ending with an IB SL course focused on literature. Was the best Latin student in the school, very close relationship with the Latin teacher.</p>

<p>For all that, placed out of only two quarters of college Latin, would have had to take a third to satisfy the college’s language competency requirement. (Latin placement test was very demanding, much more difficult than anything he had seen before.) Really wanted to learn a live language, so switched to Arabic, which he has taken one year of and liked a lot. Taught very systematically, much more like Latin than like his sister’s French.</p>

<p>Anyway – my point is that I HATE HATE HATE the way modern language was taught to my kids in high school, especially my daughter, who moved backwards in French from 10th grade until she was a senior in college. (And, remember, these kids were growing up in a house that was full of foreign-language books, movies, CDs, comic books, etc.) But my take is 180 degrees opposite to that of the OP. There was waaaaaay too much focus on inane conversation and vocabulary, and far too little on getting the kids the grammar and structure they needed to be able to encounter the stuff that made knowing the language cool – lit, movies, music, actual contact with primary speakers – and then making certain they had those opportunities. I never took ANYTHING “III”, and as far as I can tell if I had I would not love languages as much as I do.</p>

<p>My kids, and I, loved Latin because it was taught in a logical and systematic manner, and because at a relatively early stage we were engaged with real Latin texts. My daughter took six years of French, and never read an actual book in French for class. (Le petit prince doesn’t count, especially if you read a couple pages a week.) In college, I think she finally got some magazines, but that was second-year college French, and she was already completely allergic to it. (It took her four years of college to complete second-year French.)</p>

<p>College Arabic seems to agree with my son, but after a year’s worth he is nowhere near actual competence (although he has satisfied his college requirement). I made a deal with him that if he started Arabic he had to take at least two years of it, and I would like to see a third, so that he might actually be able to use it and to keep learning it. We’ll see.</p>

20

<p>Our older son took four years of Spanish in high school. He hated it, did not make good grades and did not appear to learn much. However, it may have provided a good base for the future. He took a language immersion program in Peru the summer after his freshman year in college. He returned from that program confident in his speaking ability and has used Spanish quite a bit since. He then took a language immersion program in Brazil (Portuguese) the following summer, followed by advanced second year Portuguese in college the next year where he made an easy A. His background in Spanish clearly helped with the Portuguese. He is back in Brazil this year and taking his engineering classes in Portuguese, plus another Portuguese language class (no idea what level). He seems comfortable with the language (reads novels, talks, writes, etc. with ease). He swears by the language immersion approach to learning a language and regrets his high school experience as a waste of time.</p>

<p>The younger one did three years of Latin and has no interest in traveling abroad or taking any language courses. His college does not require him to have a language (also an engineering major). The older one’s college doesn’t require the engineers to take a language either, but he opted for the language class as an excuse to live abroad, which he hopes to continue to do after graduation next spring.</p>