Does taking 4 years of lforiegn anguage in HS really work?

Parent Cafe
81

<p>bears and dogs - </p>

<p>I totally get what you have to say about wondering if the effort of teaching your child your first language is worth it if it is a minority language. Especially when reading Japanese is as tricky as it is! In my area the Japanese kids who are here temporarily spend their weekends at Japanese school so they are on track in all subjects when they return home. Some Japanese-American couples send their kids as well so they learn to read Japanese. Every Japanese mom I’ve talked with just hates it because they have twice as much homework to supervise each week, but there is no other good option for their kids.</p>

<p>There was no question for me in using English with Happykid while living in Spanish because I had always spoken English with her dad, my Spanish is decent but not as fluent as my Spanish, and I knew that perfect English would give her a competitive advantage living there. When we moved back here, I was able to find a Saturday morning Spanish school for her. Just language arts and social studies that followed the local school district curriculum. Nowhere near as demanding as the Japanese school would have been!</p>

<p>Kids who grow up in multi-lingual environments don’t confuse the languages for long. They will respond appropriately to each language well before they produce language. Often there is a speech delay because they are busy figuring out which language to use with which person. Sort of the way monolingual kids have to figure out what kind of language to use with different people. Happykid had no speech delay, but a playmate who lived in a three language household (English, French, Spanish) didn’t speak until she was three years old. It took a visit from the French-speaking grandma and aunt before the child sorted out that it was a real language used by more than just her mom.</p>

<p>I learned a lot of Spanish reading books to Happykid, and when the Harry Potter books came out, I read them to her in both languages. Lots of great vocabulary there in any language! I encourage all of my ESL students who don’t have library cards to get them and to read books from the children’s section on topics that they are interested in before tackling something in the adult’s section.</p>

82

<p>Re: owlice Post #75 - My son is a singer and taught himself IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) to make his pronunciation better in foreign language songs. Although having taken Latin, it drove him crazy that “Latin” is for reading Virgil but “Church Latin” (sometimes quite different pronunciation) was for singing Latin. He does have a good ear for dialect and inflection.</p>

<p>BTW - Bill Cosby has a short funny routine that he did probably in the 70’s where he says that he is convinced that Henry Kissinger is from Alabama.</p>

83

<p>my my what an insulting post 79. Remember, we aren’t talking about students that are certain they will need to use the language in their job, but rather students that want to add a layer of skills only to help them get a job. Saying that so many students are wrong about their idea that they won’t need a course in foreign language and so they only desire to meet grad requirements. Epiphany tells us those students are wrong. Not saying some student opinions vary, but that most are wrong. That seems so harsh to me. And, I’m not sure it is accurate. Referring to college grads here in America, I’m not sure how many accountants got their job because they took a class in Japanese.
How many theater majors got a job because they speak Latin well?
How many nursing grads lost a job because they didn’t speak Russian?</p>

<p>I absolutely agree that having more than the basic high school requirement of a foreign language is a plus later in the job market. I feel that’s true even if one doesn’t need that knowledge on the job. I agree it can show a level of meeting committments that can be appealing to an employer. I agree the more skills the better. I am not convinced that being well-versed in a foreign language that isn’t needed for a job is SO appealing to an employer that it causes him to “pull the trigger” and hire that individual, particularly if other applicants may have had additional training in a related class that the job might benefit from. I have to think with all other things equal, h.r. would rather hire a fellow as an accountant that majored in accounting rather that one that minored in accounting and minored in Russian. Realistically, a student doesn’t gradutate in 5 or 6 yrs with 10 majors. There is alimited time for additional study beyond one’s core requirements.
There are many other “layers” one can add instead of a foreign language that might “tip the scales” for employment.
A bus mgt. major might add additional Finance or Math; same for a theatre major. A potential employer might consider those additional layers more valuable than speaking German like a native. A nursing major might add Bus. mgmt if the student was thinking a more administrative aspect rather than adding Chinese.</p>

<p>If Epiphany had said “some students choose a foreign language as an extra…” instead of “other students correctly understand that it can add an extra” then I would have been in complete agreement. I think college bound students understand every extra layer of learning is a plus; some choose layers other than a foreign language and I do not consider that a wrong choice.</p>

84

<p>

</p>

<p>No, I did not say that, or anything close to it. (My, my, what an odd interpretation.)</p>

<p>The comment to which I responded was a sweeping generalization. The poster does not know how “most high school students” think, feel, or why they do or don’t take things – regardless of the fact that, yes, virtually all high schools require foreign language.</p>

<p>You will find a number of posts here with very different understandings of language than what either that poster said or what you said. (viewpoints of both students & parents)</p>

<p>For examples, posts 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 31, 32, 39, 41, and more.</p>

85

<p>

</p>

<p>He may end up trying to learn it as an adult (like I am)!</p>

86

<p>Here is how/why I interpreted what you said as I did: When you present this quote from a previous poster: “Most students take foreign language because it is a graduation requirement, not because they actually perceive a use for it in their lives”
and then post a contradictory statement that “others” are understanding it[the value of learning a foreign language] “correctly”-
then yes, you are saying since others (that see its layer value) that see it differently are understanding it correctly, then the first group of students must be seeing it incorrectly.</p>

<p>I’m not sure either, why most students would/would not want a foreign language(re: your post 84). I’ve seen no poll on the topic. Yes that was a sweeping generalization that you quoted and addressed. But you didn’t address the items there(in 79) that you address now in post 84. In 79 you only addressed one aspect; not how many students; not why; not if the statement was true; but only that others that understood it differently were understanding it correctly. That clearly indicates that since the ones different from “most students” are understanding it correctly then the “most students…” must be understanding it wrong.</p>

<p>That is why I questioned you about it and disagreed with your opinion. It just seemed so out of character for you based on other posts I have read by you. I hope that clarifies my interpretation. I understand now too, from your post 84 what you meant to disagree with about the statement. Thank you for clarifying.</p>

87

<p>As someone who works professionally across Spanish and English in a number of ways, it has been extremely interesting to read through the posts on this thread. I am not a “native speaker” although I regularly communicate in Spanish at a high level, including giving presentations and publishing in Spanish, both when I travel, and “at home.”</p>

<p>In the Eng Dept where I work, I’ve become the “go-to” person for three different groups of students with regard to Spanish. For all of these, some skill in Spanish is fairly important to post-college employment and to graduate study. </p>

<p>First, there are bright and motivated undergrad students who want to apply for Fulbright scholarships in Spanish speaking countries. If they can read, write, and communicate at a high level in Spanish and have some form of teaching experience and something else to offer and are willing to spend serious time crafting a good application, they can and do get opportunities to work abroad. With this group, it is pretty important to have some of the literary or more generally, cultural competency skills of the sort that poster here have described. It is especially important to be able to read newspapers and magazines and discern the underlying political agendas. It is also quite useful to be understand or be ready to understand different dialects, esp. those that are based on significant regional and differences of social class. </p>

<p>A second group of undergrads for whom a high degree of competency in Spanish is helpful are students who are getting nearer to graduation. Many are looking at Teach for America, for example. In this group, having a degree of bilingualism in the sort of Spanish creole that is spoken in many communities in the United States is very helpful, as is some background in linguistics. (A similar background in linguistics is also really quite helpful for anyone who is involved in teaching writing, and TOEFL, but I do not wish to digress…).</p>

<p>A third group of students are in MA programs or looking to enter them, and have had some of the desultory experiences with HS Spanish that so many of the posters here have described. This includes, unfortunately, Heritage speakers who may well have had a couple of semesters at the community college level. As getting a graduate degree in English usually involves demonstrating a basic knowledge of another language, I find myself working to convince these students that getting that basic knowledge will be worth their time.</p>

<p>For all of these groups, the ability to work in Spanish with some degree of competence really is crucial to that first good job. </p>

<p>I have found that a knowledge of English grammar is rudimentary (at best) for any students who’ve completed fewer than two years of Spanish in college. By rudimentary, I mean, unable to identify the parts of speech and unable to look at a sentence in English or Spanish and (for example) readily identify the verb.</p>

<p>To students who are struggling, I point out that I did not really begin to learn Spanish until I was an adult. My high school Spanish courses were just plain awful, and I learned almost nothing, even though I was very highly motivated. I just went to some pretty bad high schools and had really unprepared teachers and didn’t have the opportunity even to meet a native speaker until I was 19 years old. Immersion, practice, motivation, great teachers (I finally had some in college) all worked for me. </p>

<p>Even though my own high school experience with language was nearly useless, I still think that languages should be taught in high school and yes, required for college admission. Of course they could and should be taught far better than they are. So could math, science, English… but no one ever claims that science and math shouldn’t be taught, because they are (routinely) taught badly. As for study beginning in K or elementary school, that would be for another post as I have ranted on long enough.</p>

88

<p>Hi Happymom
Yeah, I knew those schools. It is hard because there would be no little league, soccer game, birthday party without missing some school day! And you know what, inside of the wall is this totalitarian Japan with mommy politics and hierarchy. Drama! Soap opera! Aghhh.
My bible at the time was Judith Harris’ “ The Nurture Assumption” –what a struggle to read back then but was totally worth it, backed up my belief about assimilation and she was so right about everything she said as far as my kid and friends are concerned.
In other hand, the advantages of Asian cram schooling is described in “Outlier” though its information has bit of flaws, I do believe if my kid had gone to those Saturday school, his math skill was covered up to high school by the time he was twelve.</p>

<p>mousegray
Good luck! I am no way discouraging people trying to do impossible.
I even think my kid might wanted to know Japanese because he would show me his Chinese homework proudly but giggling–he knows how badly shaped his letters are- since Japanese and Chinese share some elements.</p>

<p>I used to read with him forty something volumes of Dragonball comics my friend from Japan sent for him simultaneously translating to English. Another friend sent him old, primitive but way more lovelier Miyazaki TV series recordings with dorky Japanese TV commercials and all in it. Yet another brought Taro Gomi (everyone poops) designed word game.
I can say now, it all helped his love of anything humanities and arts somewhere even he did not pick up Japanese.</p>

<p>If you are a parent, do not do it for your own ego, pressure from grandparents and neighbors.
If you are a student, not for honor graduation req, tests, grades, college apps.
Do it for your own sake because it’s fun, then maybe even if you don’t become fluent, you’d learn something else more important that will help lots of other things in your life.</p>

89

<p>D2 took 4 years of German in high school and took the placement test at college. She placed into beginning German 2 at her college (if she has trouble, she can move down to German 1). So I’d say that in our case, fluency didn’t happen.</p>

<p>I remember D1 took Latin in college, not having had any Latin in high school. Her roommate who had had 4 years of high school Latin was a big help for about the first half of the first semester. That’s about as far as 4 years of high school would have taken her.</p>

<p>I think the study of a foreign language is an important part of a high school curriculum. But I’ll bet that those students who become fluent (both hearing and speaking) solely from high school classes are pretty rare.</p>

90

<p>My son’s school started with minimal instruction in French or Spanish in 3rd grade. Singing songs, learning about cultural things and foods, some basic vocab and sentences. In grades 7 and 8, he did French I and in 9th grade he skipped to French III because his teacher thought he could handle it, so he was able to take III, IV, AP and V (which was mostly cultural, reading books, watching movies, making a film, etc.) in HS. In college he tested into the 300 level and took French History and French Lit. Then he started studying Arabic and is now studying in Morocco. The French is an enormous help to him as he negotiates that culture. I encouraged French rather than Spanish way back in 3rd grade because I thought it would be the harder to learn so he might as well start early, we live near French-speaking Canada and we have French relatives. S did take 1 year of HS Spanish, found it really easy and decided he could learn it later if he needed it. He is fascinated with Arabic because it’s the first thing he can remember learning that has no connection to anything else he knows.</p>

<p>bears and dogs</p>

<p>I am very much enjoying your comments!</p>

91

<p>I’ve never understood the appeal of studying Latin. Is it even considered a foreign language? It’s been dead many centuries. Wouldn’t it a better use of one’s time to learn a living language. I took Latin for 6 years in HS way back then and was good at it but I am not sure what I got out of it. And that was in France with 8 hour school days.
I laugh when people tell me it helps learning languages or understanding better how English works. A friend’s D took 3 years of Latin then decided to take French and quickly abandoned it. So she was left with no foreign language at all. I don’t get it.</p>

92

<p>Latin is helpful in learning medical terms.</p>

93

<p>So far the people who think being fluent in a language means being able to speak it like a native (or close to it) don’t like the system. We have many “fluent” native speakers in language who are illiterate. The courses that are taught are taught not merely for conversation, but for literacy. If all you want is conversation, then become active and have the school approve conversation courses. If not, then it statistically takes 7-10 years to be literate and fluent in a language. I have learned German through immersion only and am embarrassed with all the grammar errors I make. My Spanish, however, learned in a classroom and immersion (after a proper foundation) is quite literate, grammatically correct and fluent. I am proud of my ability in that language.</p>

94

<p>That’s what I’m hoping for ejr. I’m doing Rosetta Stone to get a foundation in Spanish, then plan to do an immersion program. Grammar and writing are definitely a challenge.</p>

95

<p>S started French with a once per week small group class taught by a friend. He was in third grade, IIRC. In 7th grade, when our system starts foreign language, he did 8th grade French to fill gaps. In 8th grade he went to the HS for French II. He did AP French Lang jr year, got a 5. He took AP French Lit as an independent study, got a 5. He can speak, read, and write well. How well, he will find out, because yesterday he arrived in Paris for a term abroad. :)</p>

<p>S added Spanish in 9th grade. With the encouragement of the HS language dept, he skipped Spanish I entirely. He did a little studying over the summer and met with a peer tutor a few times a week during August to speak it. He tested into Spanish II. Took Spanish through AP Lang, got a 5. He can speak/read/write it, although I assume not as well as French. I would say that, based on my experience with learning some Spanish as an adult, Spanish is comparatively easy to pick up if you already have French.</p>

<p>Placed 1st or 2nd in the state on the national exams for his level in both languages every year of HS. Clearly, he has a gift for Romance Languages. I can imagine that Italian would be a breeze for him.</p>

<p>In college he started Russian: much harder language. The Rassias method stresses speaking from day one, I gather: 4 or 5 drill sessions per week at 7:45 am plus regular classes. Seems to have grasped it well, though. He’ll frequently mention that the Russian word for X is Y, and often go on to compare it to French and/or Spanish.</p>

<p>I think that the major weakness of language teaching in the US is that not enough schools start teaching it early enough. I’d like to see them start in K. Why not? Usually money. It’s the one subject where it had been shown that the timeframe actually MATTERS, and generally we blow it.</p>

96

<p>Our city schools have world language magnets where the kids start either German, French, or Spanish in kindergarten. My H and I thought that it was a great idea. Although I don’t regret the magnet attendance, I have not been happy with the level of commitment to the language at the elementary level. With NCLB, the city schools don’t want to “waste time” on anything that is not on the standardized tests.</p>

97

<p>

</p>

<p>I think that sums it up in a nutshell. I’ve taken 4 & 1/2 years of middle/high school Spanish and I don’t consider myself fluent by any means. I’m feel that I’m able to read and understand spoken language well, but my aural skills are lacking because all of the courses I’ve taken focus more on grammar and mechanics (which go hand in hand with writing skills) than conversational skill. Obviously both areas are important but most of my classes neglect conversation and useful vocabulary entirely. Students often learn useless vocabulary instead of words that they use in daily conversation; it’s difficult to converse fluently when you have to constantly use circumlocution or avoid words entirely. </p>

<p>After the AP Spanish course, my school offers a conversation-based class; 60 students took the AP test yet only 11 are enrolled in the post-AP course because most feel that they weren’t adequately prepared for rapid-fire conversation. I can even tell you why this happens: beginning at Spanish/French 1, classes are geared toward prepping students for their respective AP tests to the exclusion of aural skills. For example, the environment and native rights are two topics that appear frequently on the AP Spanish Lang. test; as such, my school spends a disproportionate amount of time teaching this vocab. Great for the AP test, but not so great for the real world. I would imagine the same thing happens all over. The only way to really get around this problem is immersion, I suppose.</p>

98

<p>For me at 57, I think trying to learn a new language is good for my aging brain and I definitely know more than when I started. If I never become fluent, I might at least understand what someone says if we are ever fortunate enough to go to Cuba again. I noticed, when we visited Havana several years ago, that I understood almost nothing there. In Santiago de Cuba, I understood quite a bit more, even though I’d had no Spanish instruction. When I got back to Havana, I again understood nothing. I think people talked a lot faster there. I can’t see a downside to learning another language at whatever level. I think it is good to have broad exposure to most subjects in elem, middle school, high school and college because otherwise, how do we know what we want to pursue?</p>

99

<p>Spanish, like English, is spoken differently in different countries. I speak Spanish fluently and have problems understanding Cubans. I also speak English fluently and have trouble understanding people from England.</p>

100

<br>

<br>

<p>And you can read inscriptions on Roman ruins and figure out what some lyrics to Enya songs are all about. Well worth the effort…</p>