Does this look like a LD to you? *Test Scores Included*

<p>I had a Weschler test done by a psychologist. </p>

<p>However, he was not very useful in the debriefing or in his report (e.g. I had to research online to even find out the name of the test). He acknowledged an imbalance but was pretty washy about what to do. I haven't been back.</p>

<p>But, reviewing some websites on this issue, I do believe there is a problem. Just recently, I reconsidered my memories and self-evaluations in light of the test results, and I have found that assessing my life through the lens of this cognitive imbalance has provided much explanation. I won't get into these new insights so that I don't bias your opinions.</p>

<p>So I'm here to ask for your interpretation of my test results, since I couldn't find any legit LD forum, and because I'd rather not go to another psychologist. </p>

<hr>

<p>Verbal Comprehension: Composite Score 126, Percentile Rank 96
Perceptual Reasoning: Composite Sore 119, Percentile Rank 90
Working Memory: Composite Score 132, Percentile Rank 98
Processing Speed: Composite Score 97, Percentile Rank 42</p>

<p>A 2 standard deviation disparity is significant, right? For someone in the median, this would be like having a completely normal, 100-IQ profile, except for a processing speed of someone in the bottom 2 percentile, right?</p>

<p>Oh, and my subscores:</p>

<p>Block Design: 11
Similarities: 15
Digit Span: 15
Coding: 9
Vocabulary: 14
Letter-Number Sequencing: 16
Matrix Reasoning: 15
Comprehension: 14
Symbol Search: 10
Picture Completion: 14
Information: 15
Arithmetic: 16</p>

<p>So for the subscores there are those that range from 14-16 and several that range from 9-11. </p>

<p>I know that, on the whole, my profile is high, and even my lowest scores are just a little below average. But LD's are characterized by imbalances, right? If so, these are pretty big?</p>

<p>Here is my take as someone who has been tested and has LD herself. You are EXTREMELY SMART! And even if you have a cognitive weakness, it is EXTREMELY MILD. It is hard to determine whether there is an LD just from WAIS, but judging from these scores, it is so mild that you don't even have to think about it. Your achieving dead average scores on Processing Speed (9 is still average) can be a result of perfectionism (checking-rechecking) since this index would be affected by such an attitude the most, motor problems, not caring so much for these less intellectual tasks, etc. You do not have glaring discrepancies in your scores.</p>

<p>Just to give you a comparison, I have a very severe LD caused by brain damage at birth (I have cerebral palsy) since I was premature. I have extreme discrepancies. My scores range from Similarities--19 to Picture Completion--2. And my indexes are:</p>

<p>Verbal Comprehension Index--145
Working Memory Index--109
Perceptual Organization Index--71
Processing Speed Index--79.</p>

<p>So know that there can be far more severe discrepancies than yours. And be proud about being so smart. Your Working Memory is simply phenomenal!</p>

<p>Anything more than 1.5 deviation is considered to be a possible learning disability. You need to have the pysch write up a report to explain and diagnose your results. If the psych you used will not do that, try to find someone who will. Good luck.</p>

<p>Both of your points are well taken. I recognize that even if I do have a LD, I'm blessed with a relatively mild one. However, I will pursue this issue with other mental health professionals. I just wanted some lay opinions (with experience, of course, as parents of those with LD's) first so I know what to expect.</p>

<p>I have a bright daughter with ADHD too. She received accomodations from the College Board for extended time on her SATs. This was her breakdown:
VCI:130 (98%)
PRI:131 (98%)
WMI: 126 (96%)
PSI :91 (27%)
FSIQ: 127 (96%)</p>

<p>Similarities<em>17
Vocab</em>17
Comprehension<em>11
Block Design</em>13
Picture Concepts_18
Matrix Reasoning _14</p>

<p>Digit Span<em>13
Letter Number Sequencing</em>16</p>

<p>Symbol Search <em>7
Coding</em>10</p>

<p>It has always been a struggle for her to do anything in a timely fashion! It affects, dressing, driving, tests, talking on the phone or answering interview questions and limitless other activities</p>

<p>that processing speed defecit in comparison to the other strong scores immediately screams auditory processing disorder to me. Sometimes, disabilities will cause a person to appear to have “normal” scores in one area, but excellent in another. There’s not supposed to be a huge split between all the different speeds, and if there is one, it often indicates a disability, even if the one looks “normal”.</p>

<p>btw, I have auditory processing disorder and those are the differences in mine too.</p>

<p>I realize I’m jumping in long after the OP has gone.</p>

<p>Probably not an auditory processing disorder, at least auditory memory. His digit span is a 15. The PSI on the WISC involves more visual processing and fine motor/handwriting skills than it does auditory processing. Symbol Search is fine at a 10, but it’s on the low end compared with his other subtests. His Coding and Symbol Search tell me it’s more likely a visual problem than auditory, and may also involve some fine motor and copying issues. Also, his Block Design is four points lower than Matrix Reasoning. Another sign of likely inconsistencies with his visual processing and related reasoning.</p>

<p>It’s pretty clear that the OP is 2E or twice-exceptional. High IQ but something getting in the way of that pure intelligence…likely his processing speed. It’s like having a race car stuck in rush hour traffic. Lots of horsepower, but you can’t go very fast!</p>

<p>For many (but not all), low processing speed is a tell-tale sign of ADHD-inattentive type. Or a still-in-the-works type of ADHD diagnosis called “Sluggish Cognitive Tempo.” I hope SCT makes it into the official diagnostic manual during the next revision. SCT is a lot more common than you might think. Most parents and teachers assume it’s laziness.</p>

<p>So–is that an LD?</p>

<p>Yes and no. Slow processing speed compared with other IQ indices is not a true LD, at least by traditional measures. In the bad old days, a person’s IQ had to be 15 points higher (or more) than that person’s score on a normed reading or math test–for it to be classified as an LD. But thankfully, specialists now realize that comparing IQ to achievement is not the only or even the best way to determine if a person has a learning difference/learning disability. And federal law now reflects that change. “Signficant discrepancy” between IQ and achievement is no longer required for diagnosing a “specific learning disability.”</p>

<p>What really matters is: does his slower processing speed make it harder for him to learn and show mastery of what he’s learned? That’s the essence of an LD. </p>

<p>In this case, the OP’s full-scale IQ is not accurate. Too much scatter between his PSI and his other indices. Better to use the General Abilities Index, which uses only the VCI and PRI. Using the GAI, his IQ is 127.</p>

<p>His GAI is 33-points higher than his Processing Speed Index, or more than two standard deviations. So information processing is certain to be a problem.</p>

<p>What does slow information processing look like? He probably wears out faster while reading, writing, doing math, or taking notes while listening to a lecture. It means he makes more careless mistakes. It means that multi-tasking is usually very hard. It means he often just doesn’t feel like doing more homework, reading more of the text book, or revising that paper. He sometimes just goes through the motions.</p>

<p>Not because he’s lazy, but because getting his brain to process the information simply takes longer. And because other parts of his intelligence are so quick and so precise, the slower processing speed is even more frustrating for him!</p>

<p>In some cases ADHD meds help. Meds stimulate the brain’s neurotransmitters–the chemical messengers that take information from one brain cell to the next. In people with ADHD and some innate information processing problems, the neurotransmitters get lost or take the scenic route going from brain cell to brain cell. That means the information gets lost somewhere upstairs. Meds CAN help some people. But obviously, that decision can and should only be made by a physician who understands processing issues.</p>

<p>What works in addition to/other than meds? Extended time for tests and big assignments, summaries of the text/literature to be read, help with organization and executive function, sometimes separate setting for tests, and sometimes getting a copy of the teacher’s notes before the lecture so the person can highlight and doodle, not try to transcribe what they are hearing.</p>

<p>^ That is all very interesting - thanks for posting!</p>

<p>These are wonderfully informative posts! So often, after people go through testing, the analysis of results seems to be lacking. Why go through the testing if the analysis and possible remedies/work-arounds aren’t discussed?</p>

<p>My D has the added problem of low Working Memory:</p>

<p>Verbal Comprehension: 121
16 Similarities
13 Vocabulary
12 Comprehension</p>

<p>Perceptual Reasoning: 119
15 Block Design
13 Matrix Reasoning
11 Picture Completion</p>

<p>Working Memory: 97
9 Digit Span
10 Letter-Number Sequencing</p>

<p>Processing Speed: 100
9 Coding
11 Symbol Search</p>

<p>The school did the testing a year or so ago, at age 13. The emotional testing also showed she was highly depressed and suicidal (which I already knew - thankfully we’ve gotten passed that.) Our psychologist pointed out that depression also tends to “depress” other scores, so maybe they would have been higher. Anyway, we gave a copy of this to D’s psychologist and psychiatrist. Neither had any comments. The school report did have a sentence in their 15 page report saying work would take longer and be tiring. But there’s nothing else. I, too, have searched on the internet for help. I’m sure it’s buried in there somewhere in the thousands of hits.</p>

<p>ADHD meds sometimes help a little. Grades are either As or Fs. Been a problem since kindergarten. Anyone know how to “solve” the problem so working memory and processing speed improve? Don’t know what she can do in life.</p>

<p>bonnie–</p>

<p>Thanks for your post. I’m sorry the professionals don’t take the time to explain this. I’m just a mom but have learned <strong>a lot</strong> by immersing myself in eval scores for many years. My d also had an incredible neuropsych who helped me understand a lot of this.</p>

<p>Acronyms used below:
VCI: Verbal Comprehension Index or mostly verbal, sequentially-based intelligence
PRI: Perceptual Reasoning Index or mostly nonverbal, still sequentially-based intelligence
WMI: Working Memory Index - mostly auditory memory held for a few seconds and used with other information to create a new “product”
PSI: Processing Speed Index - measures how quickly the brain processes information, especially visual, but the subtests measure fine motor/graphomotor skills as well.</p>

<p>1) There are many types of intelligence. The Wechsler Intelligence Standard for Children or WISC (the IQ test you posted scores for) is not the best intelligence test for all people. However, the WISC measures four types of intelligence that are used most often in the classroom. So that test may not be telling us your dd’s true intelligence. But those results may yield very important clues about why some aspects of school are hard for her. </p>

<p>If a kid’s overall WISC score seems <strong>unexpectedly</strong> low (in three or all four indicies,) chances are it’s a bright kid who is having trouble learning or showing mastery in the traditional classroom. If a kid’s WISC score has a lot of scatter (some high scores and some relatively low scores), chances are the kid is frustrated with school, struggling more in school than his neurotypical classmates, and no one can really explain why. </p>

<p>2) For your dd, there is an interesting split. She fits the second example above: wide scatter with her VCI and PRI more than 15-points higher than her WMI and PSI. She is clearly a very bright young lady with a strong capacity for learning complicated, abstract and complex information in both verbal and nonverbal realms. However, it appears she has trouble with the basics. </p>

<p>For example, she might be able to learn algebra quickly but can’t remember her multiplication tables. Or she might be able to tell you a very creative story with complex vocabulary and interesting character development, but not be able to write out that same information. Her written version would be sparse, with few details and much simpler vocabulary.</p>

<p>I don’t know that those specific examples apply to her, but they may help you understand what’s happening. </p>

<p>3) There are no effective exercises or tutoring sessions that will boost someone’s Working Memory Index or Processing Speed Index. Yes, some strategies might help. But realize that if she starts putting brain energy into implementing those strategies, she will have less brain energy left for doing the actual classwork/homework. </p>

<p>4) I’d like to see an executive function assessment done on your dd. Schools usually don’t do them because there is no automatic 504 or IEP for a kid with weak executive function. Usually, those kids are just labeled as “lazy” or “not living up to potential” or maybe “slow learners.” GRRRRR. </p>

<p>But the WISC only gives us a glimpse of what’s working/what’s not. Other evals give a lot more specifics. I’d like to know what types of information are harder or easier for her to store in her working memory and to manipulate from there. I’d like to know which types of cognitive processing are easier for her and what types are more difficult for her.</p>

<p>Good exec function tests include the Delis-Kaplan and the NEPSY. Any scatter or unusual scores on exec function evals should lead to more testing–to further pinpoint what’s going on. (But don’t burn her out by doing all the evals in the same day!)</p>

<p>5) I’d also like to tease out whether her low Coding score is mostly an eyes-to-brain issue, or a brain-to-hands issue. Eye-hand coordination can be really complicated! Also, the Coding subtest has some overlaps with short-term memory. Kids who have memory weaknesses tend to have lower Coding scores, even though Coding is considered a Processing Speed test, not a Working Memory test.</p>

<p>I think your dd may have some visual processing issues. In addition to her lower Coding and Symbol Search scores, her Picture Completion is at least two points lower than her other PRI subtest scores. Picture Completion requires strong visual processing in addition to nonverbal reasoning. Her nonverbal reasoning is great–as long as the visual processing is not complicated.</p>

<p>By visual processing, I don’t mean 20/20 vision. Visual processing is her brain’s ability to take information from the eyes, rapidly make sense of it, and use it effectively. It MAY be that her visual processing is a little weaker than some of her other cognitive skills. </p>

<p>Likewise, auditory processing is not about “hearing.” It’s about the brain being able to rapidly take information from the ears and then convert, compare, file or manipulate that information so it becomes meaningful. </p>

<p>As I said in an earlier post, the “signs” of slower WMI and/or PSI are often inconsistent performance in school, academic burnout, frustration, and can also show up as anxiety or depression. Or as the psych’s report said about your dd, “school work may be long and tiring.”</p>

<p>Solutions? Sorry, but I don’t know of quick fixes. Accommodations are probably best. Keyboarding can be much better than writing by hand–which often requires too much brainpower. Books on tape help some kids who fatigue while reading, but they don’t work for all kids. Spellcheck can be great for kids who can’t hold words in working memory. Dragon Naturally Speaking can be a huge asset for kids who can “tell” you a great essay but can’t seem to put it on paper.</p>

<p>When WMI is a problem, I recommend school-approved “cheat sheets.” For example, letting her use a multiplication chart when doing math, even on tests. If the goal is her learning pre-algebra or early geometry, focus on that. Don’t bog down her brain trying to remember what 6x7 is. Another approved cheat-sheet can be teacher-written notes before EVERY lecture. She can highlight, doodle or underline on the sheet–and not have to listen, write and remember all at the same time. </p>

<p>I don’t recommend that the student tape classroom lectures, then transcribe them at home. If the student is already taking longer than neurotypical peers to do homework, when will she have time and stamina to listen to the taped lecture and write notes on it? Nope, teacher-written notes are far better.</p>

<p>Students with weak WMI can improve their note-taking skills. Best to learn and practice those skills in a small group or 1:1 with a Speech-Language Pathologist and not “trial by fire” in the classroom setting.</p>

<p>When a person has weaker PSI, they often benefit from receiving additional time to take major tests, write papers or complete long assignments. They also may need help with prioritizing, organization, and time management.</p>

<p>These accommodations are not coddling. The goal should be to minimize the amount of effort she has to spend compensating for her weaker working memory and slower processing speed–so she can learn at the pace her brain is clearly capable of!</p>

<p>Finally, emotional health. 13 is a fragile, difficult age. Not only does she have to deal with hormones and the social landmines of middle school, but she’s facing invisible difficulties that make schoolwork so much harder for her. Yet it doesn’t appear to be classic ADHD-inattentive and is not really an LD. So she may not qualify for school-based assistance. My kids were not diagnosed with learning difficulties until 6th grade, and it took several years for the school to even agree on what to call it or how to help them. My kids needed several years of counseling to deal with the many struggles during that time.</p>

<p>Mitdu, you really pegged her. Your examples in your second point were right on. And it’s funny you mentioned visual processing. Shortly after she took these tests at school, she started vision therapy, which has helped in some areas (after 8 years of me having to help her keep focused on each problem, each number, how I despised the painful process she had to go through for long division. I don’t have to point anymore!) </p>

<p>I’m looking into Brain Builder from Advanced Brain Technologies; I had a version from 5 or 6 years ago that focused on digit span for both visual and auditory (I was the only one that used it). Don’t know if that does nothing more than improve ones performance on a digit span test, and not translate into better working memory. </p>

<p>We’ll have to try your suggestions. It’s getting pretty hard now that’s she’s turned 15. So many years of frustration - motivation takes a real hit.</p>

<p>I so appreciate the comments and have started looking through the web site you suggested. Thank you so much!</p>

<p>Bonnie–</p>

<p>It’s funny that many schools and some psychs don’t know how to effectively interpret scores like your dd’s, but a layman can. I don’t have any training or specialized insight. It’s just that your dd’s profile is very, very common. Schools may act like it’s rare, but it’s not.</p>

<p>By ignoring her profile, the schools inadvertently increase the likelihood of anxiety, depression and lack of motivation. I know they don’t WANT her to hate school. But all to often, kids who struggle in school without effective solutions wind up detaching from school and sometimes from life itself. </p>

<p>(At that point, too many schools start claiming the student’s real problems are the anxiety or the lack of motivation. Nope, those are the EFFECTS, not the causes of that student’s troubles in school.)</p>

<p>My dd did vision therapy. The guy who oversaw it was largely a quack, but it did help her. No magic cures, but it was a small piece of a very big puzzle.</p>

<p>If a student is willing to try software programs or other interventions to help their auditory memory, working memory, or processing speed, it won’t hurt. But by the age of 15, many kids won’t. It’s just one more “gotta do” that makes them feel stupid or drains their mental energy. If she’s willing, do it. If not, you may not want to push it.</p>

<p>I wish to goodness I would never have forced my son to do Fast ForWord. It was very counterproductive. It didn’t really help his auditory memory or his auditory processing. But it was the straw that broke his fragile camel’s back. And I strongly regret attempting it. </p>

<p>You say ADHD meds help a little. Is she still taking the meds? Has she tried a different med or dosage to see if another is more effective? According to Dr. Ned Hallowell, 30% of people with ADHD get little or no benefit from meds. They definitely have ADHD, but the meds do not successfully stimulate the brain’s neurotransmitters to increase cognitive efficiency. It’s possible your dd is in that 30%. Or it’s possible the med she’s taking is not right for her.</p>

<p>And depression/anxiety can interfere with ADHD meds and their side effects. As always, it’s important to work with a doc who really, really understands ADHD, all of the pharmaceutical options and non-med options for ADHD, and who understands cognitive processing. Some docs don’t.</p>

<p>You’ll find plenty of other parents struggling with the “how do I movtivate my kid?” issue on this site: [Learning</a> Disabilities (LDs), ADHD and Education Support, The<em>SAFE</em>Site - Home](<a href=“http://millermom.proboards.com/index.cgi]Learning”>Home | Learning Disabilities (LDs), ADHD and Education Support, The*SAFE*Site). </p>

<p>Does your dd have an IEP or 504?</p>

<p>The processing speed measures used on the WAIS IV ( I am guessing this was a WAIS, not a WISC, but could be either) are not auditory processing tasks. They are graphomotor tasks. So one could not assume auditory processing from those tasks. And I agree with Mitdu- Dig. Span and L-N sequencing scores are quite high, not typical for an auditory processing issue.</p>

<p>Also, one doesn’t diagnose LD by just administering an IQ test. That provides insufficient data to answer that question.</p>

<p>Hey jym–</p>

<p>If she was 13 at the time of testing, they should have used the WISC. WAIS is for those 16 and older.</p>

<p>You are correct–LDs cannot be diagnosed by one test. You are very wise to point that out!</p>

<p>It’s also important to remember that there are LDs (generic term) and there are Specific Learning Disabilities as defined by IDEA. </p>

<p>LDs can include Aspergers, Nonverbal Learning Disability, Dysgraphia, Dyslexia, ADHD, and many other legitimate diagnoses that impede learning or showing mastery. However, the diagnoses listed above are not Specific Learning Disabilities as defined by IDEA. They usually fit into other IDEA categories. For example, ADHD is usually classified as Other Health Impaired. ADHD is still an LD, but it’s seen as OHI, not SLD.</p>

<p>Bonnie’s dd has apparently been diagnosed with ADHD. That medical diagnosis, combined with an analysis of the student’s entire eval battery (including the WISC) and a understanding of the student’s specific difficulties in the classroom and in life, can help with what Bonnie requested: “possible remedies/work arounds.”</p>

<p>It’s my opinion that too many schools spend too much time on the IDEA “eligibility” and “classification” parts of the eval–and give too little time and attention to providing the type of information that bonnie asked for: what would help her teenaged daughter be more successful in school?</p>

<p>Mitdu-
oops-- didn’t see an age of the OP student given, and assumed, since we are dealing with soon-to-be college kids, that this was a 17-ish yr old, since they said it was their scores. My response re: the WAIS/WISC was to the OP, who I didn’t think was only 13. I think you might be referring to the other poster. I was responding to peddle’s high dig. span and LN seq scores. Sorry to confuse.</p>

<p>A school eval is typically done to determine eligibility for services, and the report will commonly stay focused on that issue. </p>

<p>BTW, you are familiar with many of these issues , that is apparent. I happen to be a neuropsychologist!</p>

<p>jym–</p>

<p>It seems there are WISC (or WAIS) scores from three posters: Peddle, manyamile, and bonnie. Easy to get them confused. But it’s great to hear from a neuropsych!!! Do you do peds? Mostly LDs? Or do you see a range of stroke, TBI and other cases?</p>

<p>My dd was evaluated by a wonderful neuropsych. dd’s pretty darned complicated (CAPD, NLD and ADHD–but not “classic” for any of the three.) A few years before, my son saw a different neuropsych who was absolutely horrible. </p>

<p>When both my kids went from “gifted” to seriously struggling in school in a matter if a couple of years, I immersed myself in the world of psychoeducational evaluations, SpEd law, and finding solutions for my kids. Both are in college now. dd is working her tail off and seems to be holding her own. Son is refusing accoms and hitting many of the same roadblocks that he struggled against from about 6th grade on. He’s a hands-on learner and a terrible test taker. </p>

<p>My son also has a complicated profile. UNIT is 40 points higher than WISC-III. VIQ and PIQ were the same at 83. Yet most teachers thought he was gifted. No ADHD diagnosis but his Freedom From Distractibility was a 78. I’d bet the farm that if ADHD-SCT is added to the DSM-V, he’d qualify for SCT. The best description is that he has extremely strong nonverbal/multi-sensory skills but has very weak higher-order language processing skills and very weak sequential skills. His neuropsych said, “It’s impossible for anyone to get scores like your son did. His right hemisphere and his left hemisphere do not communicate with each other.” When my son was in 7th grade, the neuropsych predicted he would never graduate from high school.</p>

<p>I couldn’t accept that. So I became my kids’ advocate–and learned a lot along the way. I also do whatever I can, wherever I can, to provide other parents with suggestions or ideas. I always stress that I am a layman–but that I’ve learned from experience.</p>

<p>Jym626,</p>

<p>Although I’ve already gotten many responses, just for the heck of it, could you look at my scores too?</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/learning-differences-challenges-ld-adhd/662062-interpret-my-test-scores-please.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/learning-differences-challenges-ld-adhd/662062-interpret-my-test-scores-please.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Itsme-
Do you have motor involvement with your cp? If so, please describe.</p>

<p>mitdu-
does your s possibly have agenesis of the corpus callosum? The description you give of teh hemispheres not communicating would possibly fit this, and at is often not diagnosed until they happen to have a CT or MRI.</p>