Does this look like a LD to you? *Test Scores Included*

Parents Forum Learning Differences and Challenges - LD, ADHD
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<p>I have spastic diplegia type of CP. Both of my legs are spastic (tight) and there is slight spasticity in both arms as well (although less than in the legs). I walk on my own two feet without aids, however I do so with a limp and a characteristic gait. I also tire quickly from walking and standing. My brain MRI shows bilateral damage to posterior periventricular white matter, which is consistent with my physical presentation.</p>

<p>I have extreme difficulty landing a job because all the jobs seem above my head. In fact, just today, I had an interview for a state government job which involved answering a large volume of phone calls, sitting at a booth servicing customers and doing other clerical tasks. I felt like I can’t handle this job and behaved accordingly at the interview. They also asked me if I want to be considered for an “Investigator” job which would involve looking into complaints from people about local businesses and from their description I felt like again, I can’t handle it, and outright said that and refused the position. </p>

<p>Could you suggest, by any chance, a suitable job for someone like me.</p>

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<p>itsmethere-
Apologies, but vocational placement is not my area of expertise. It is extremely difficult to generate hypotheses with limited information about a person. I woudl suggest yo contact the vocational rehabilitation office in your state. They should have the staff to assist you. Good luck!</p>

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<p>jym–</p>

<p>The neuropsych did mention that his corpus callosum was not “doing its job” or something to that effect. An MRI or CAT was not mentioned. If he were to be tested and agenesis was diagnosed, how would that change the life of a 20-year old? Especially a young man who wants nothing to do with any diagnoses of disabilities or learning difficulties?</p>

<p>He was first tested for LDs in 6th grade. His WJs were 25 to 40 points higher than his WISC-III. School refused services and told me he was “just lazy.” They also claimed they were educating him far beyond his cognitive potential and that I should be glad they were able to do so much with a kid who was “such a slow learner.”</p>

<p>I don’t remember all of his specific scores from those years. I do remember that private testing showed his SCAN was in the 1st percentile and SSW was “severely disordered.” But his TAPS was mostly in the average range. His CELF was incredibly inconsistent. No rhyme or reason to the scores.</p>

<p>Because he tested “at grade level” on end-of-year proficiency tests and because his WJs were in the 110 to 125 range, the school concluded he did not have an LD. Or SLD. We finally got an IEP as SLI, but it was a joke. The SLP was much better at speech articulation impairments than higher-order language processing impairments. </p>

<p>He finally got an SLD IEP for reading comp and written expression by having private testing using the UNIT. But I had to get the state involved to prove to the LEA that the UNIT was a valid IQ test. The LEA even insisted on seeing my son’s UNIT protocols. </p>

<p>Looking back, there was a pattern. He began talking quite late. Still within normal, but barely. His preschool teacher nicknamed him “deep river” because she knew he was a very deep thinker but rarely expressed his thoughts. We had a literature-rich home. My son learned to read very quickly but still spells phonetically. Looking back, he had a lot of sensory sensitivities. Not exactly on the Spectrum. But hypersensitive to textures, sounds and tastes. I understand that’s pretty common in people who are multi-sensory learners, as opposed to linguistic-sequential learners.</p>

<p>His youth pastor said that, when my son speaks during a discussion, everyone pauses because they respect his incredible insight. He is able to perceive things in ways that others don’t. And while he usually uses simple vocabulary, he expresses very perceptive and deep thoughts atypical of someone his age. </p>

<p>First IQ test was in 2nd grade when his teacher nominated him for the gifted program. I never got the actual score but the school psych told me it was borderline mentally ■■■■■■■■. I was encouraged to have his IQ tested privately. The private child psych tried but could not administer the test. He said my 8-year old son had extreme anxiety and completely shut down.</p>

<p>That was so strange because I saw a happy, contented kid who loved sports, loved music, enjoyed books and was very even tempered. He was very, very NORMAL!!! And I didn’t give a hill of beans if he were in a Gifted classroom or not. So I didn’t pursue more IQ or educational testing. He attended reg-ed classes through elementary school and got great grades. His teachers even used loopholes to get him into writing programs for gifted kids. They were convinced he was gifted, regardless of the IQ tests.</p>

<p>But that was the tip of the iceburg. He was able to hold things together until middle school when he started failing classes, seriously talked about killing himself, and the school’s only answer was that he “was lazy.” The neuropych’s only answer was to repeatedly slam his forefinger into a paper with my son’s scores on it and say, “These scores are impossible. It’s impossible for anyone to get scores like this. Your son will never graduate from high school.”</p>

<p>He did graduate with a 3.1 GPA in college-prep courses with very few IEP accoms. Mostly extended time which he rarely used. He received many, many awards for musicianship–mostly oboe but also saxophone and guitar. He also won awards as a soccer goalkeeper. He loved creative writing as long as spelling and mechanics were not part of the grade. His chemistry teacher told me, “He is flawless in the lab but can’t score above a 40 on a test on the same material.” He is now majoring in Coastal/Marine Geology and minoring in music performance. He doesn’t struggle to learn but really struggles to pass any test. In any subject. No matter how much studying and tutoring. Words in a lecture, on a page, or on a test just don’t hold enough meaning for him.</p>

<p>The scatter and inconsistencies in his psychoeds and in his day-to-day performance are baffling, to say the least. Because school is so much work for such inconsistent reward, he’s built up a lot of emotional “scar tissue” over the years. He becomes defensive and pulls away from the source of the pain. </p>

<p>I pour all this out because I am still seeking…still searching for ways to enable him to use his abilities and find contentment. What every parent wants for their beloved kids. I welcome your insight and ideas.</p>

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<p>Apologies, but I am always hesitant to formulate opinions. While intervention might not change per se if a diagnosis of something like agenesis of the corpus callosum or other callosal disorders, it might help in the understanding frome educators and treating physicians.</p>

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<p>jym and mitdu, I can’t help myself from jumping in with my D’s scores… it’s your own fault for being so knowledgeable and generous</p>

<p>She’s 15, and has NVLD, we know-- on the WISC IV she scored:
Verbal comprehension: 99th percentile
Perceptual reasoning: 18th percentile
Working Memory: 81st percentile
Processing speed: 9th percentile</p>

<p>She has accommodations, is very focused, works very hard, and her social skills are excellent so she can usually make clear to a teacher that she is doing her best, and often can find her own peculiar way through a difficult topic. (Geometry, not so much, but thank heaven it’s over) But I live in fear of the SAT’s etc. There are holes in her understanding (geometry, physical science) that I doubt any kind of tutoring can fill. Any suggestions or thoughts you might have, I’d be very grateful for.</p>

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<p>Gwen F–</p>

<p>As the parent of an 18-year old NLDer (who also has severe CAPD and ADHD-inattentive), I understand. She’s now in college.</p>

<p>I strongly suggest that your dd take the ACT in addition to, or maybe even instead of the SAT. The SAT’s emphasis on reasoning can sabotage even the hardest-working, best-prepared NLDer. My dd had low SAT scores (R+M 910, R+M+W 1470) but decent ACT scores (22.)</p>

<p>SAT or not, it may be very beneficial for your dd to have private tutoring to strengthen her abstract and nonverbal reasoning skills. She will need those skills in high school, college, and in the workforce. My suggestion is not to go with Sylvan or a store-front type of tutoring chain. Look for a private tutor who is very knowledgeable about NLD and understands how to leverage your dd’s strengths.</p>

<p>I’m guessing that your dd’s NLD causes some difficulty with fine/graphomotor skills. If so, that may be why her Processing Speed Index is so low. We don’t have any good evals for how the brain processes information. Our evals measure what the brain/body <em>does</em> with the information once it is processed. The WISC PSI has a strong fine-motor component. A kid with visual-motor integration issues is more likely to have a low PSI, regardless of how quickly their brain processes information. Usually, more testing is needed to show where the information breakdown is occurring. The Processing Speed Index does not give a complete picture.</p>

<p>The fact that your dd is persistent and usually finds a way is HUGE!!! My dd’s determination is the single biggest factor in her academic success. She nearly failed Algebra II/Trig but worked her tail off to pull a D. She struggled through Physical Science (combination of Chemistry and Physics.) But she never, ever gave up or gave in. She was in National Honor Society, Tri-M Music Honor Society, and won numerous athletic awards. She is now using her work ethic and determination to be quite successful in college.</p>

<p>I say that not to brag about my own child, but to reassure you that your dd has what it takes. Willingness to work hard is #1. Private tutoring probably <em>won’t</em> fill all of the holes. But it can strengthen her overall understanding of subjects that are hard for her. It can help her find and use strategies that work for her. It can help her build upon her incredible language strengths.</p>

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<p>I don’t want to hijack this thread, but it’s been interesting since I have a dyslexic and no one has really given me the depth of explanation on the WISC tests. Anyway, my question is: Is IQ a constant? In other words if you receive an IQ score at age 6 is that a constant or does it move around signficantly during life?</p>

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<p>Scores measure a person’s performance at that time. Ther are statistical properties (standard error of the measurement/confidence intervals) that help to give a range that the score would likely fall in on repeated measures. Many factors affect IQ scores, includeing the tests themselves (which get revised/renormed, etc) and developmental issues that affect performance. Then factor in the static issues like how a person felt the day of testing, how much sleep they got, etc) and all this affects scores. Also, scores do not correlate 100% between measures, so if a person was tested on , say a WISC-R and then later tested on a WAIS IV, the tests dont completely correlate, so scores will differ. Just as SAT scores change, so do IQ scores. They arent as stable as people think, though ranges should be generally consistent.</p>

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<p>Mitdu, thank you SO much! I did not really get the ‘processing speed’ thing before, but it makes complete sense as a combination of fine motor/visual spatial abilities. Her general reasoning abilities are wonderful, but if you throw in anything visual it all goes to hell.
I am thrilled to hear your D is doing well-- it gives me hope! And yes, I think specialized tutoring makes sense (we live in an isolated area so that won’t be so easy). Thanks especially for the info on the ACT-- I’ve wondered which test would be better for her. It is interesting, as you know, having a child with such a schism in her learning abilities! You seem to understand it so well-- thank you for taking the time to explain!</p>

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<p>That makes sense on IQ. I was told years ago that “10” was average on the WISC for children and to look at the scores lower than 10. Is that an accurate way to look at a snapshot? For example, my son typically gets 3-5 on coding, everything else is close to 10 or much higher than 10. Processing speed is low. I was told coding and processing speed correlates closely to reading and that’s how they made the diagnosis (along with KTEA tests and others). It doesn’t seem to change much over time, although his KTEA’s have been trending upward and the reading is in low average now, but the WISC’s tend to stay relatively the same which is interesting. It’s all very fascinating and I haven’t really thought about it too much til I stumbled on this thread (I’m home with the flu or cold so surfing) and now that he’s in high school, I have to figure out what to do about ACT, PLAN, PSAT at his next IEP meeting. And of course the schools says “it’s totally up to me.”</p>

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<p>Subtest scores between 8-12 are all in the Average range.</p>

<p>Hopefully those of you who are reporting IQ scores had more testing done than just an IQ. These diagnoses cannot and should not be made based on IQ scores alone. I would not feel comfortable commenting on diagnoses and recommendations based solely on IQ scores. Thanks for understanding.</p>

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<p>Thanks, that does help the perspective alittle. I know in my case there is a battery of tests over a couple days every 3 years that are required for his IEP. I just never really understood the WISC IV, to me that is the most confusing because of how it is scored.</p>

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<p>jym, what other tests do you suggest? We saw a much recommended neuropsych and she did the WISC and no more.</p>

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<p>Gwen, does she have an IEP with her school? I’m guessing different states have different “rules”, but my son must go through testing every three years through the school’s psychologist office. The school switches up the tests as my son has grown older, but generally there are 3-4 different tests, plus interviews with the teachers, with my son and with my husband and I as part of the evaluation and then there is an annual eval that doesn’t include he testing.</p>

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<p>The neuropsych should have tests selected to address the question being asked. It should typcially include measures of memory (verbal and nonverbal) planning, problem-solving, visuospatial skills, verbal/language-based skills, attention, organization and also a measure of mood isues. Academic issues may or may not be part of the evaluation. Parent and teacher rating scales are also part of an evaluation. Testing rules out as well as rules in diagnostic issues. The specific tests vary by referral question, age of patient, etc. An IQ test is part of a neuropsych eval. It alone is not sufficient evaluate and diagnose learning or cognitive problems.</p>

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<p>Within the school system, an updated assessment may not need to be a complete updated evaluation (yes, this does seem to vary by state). A school psychologist can better speak to these rules/regulations</p>

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<p>momofthree–</p>

<p>Coding is an interesting test. I don’t know if I’d say it correlates closely to reading. More than anything, Coding measures visual-motor skills.</p>

<p>Coding is a timed, paper/pencil test. It’s kind of like translating a “code.” The person looks at a digit, translates it into a symbol and writes that symbol. If a person has labored handwriting ability, it usually means a lower Coding score. Handwriting, by itself, is not a sign of pure intelligence. </p>

<p>But Coding is not just a handwriting test. A person with weak visual memory, weak working memory, or difficulties with concentration may also have a lower Coding score. And definitely, a person who has slower visual processing skills will likely have a lower Coding score. Those skills are related to intelligence. It takes testing beyond the WISC to determine why a person has a low Processing Speed Index.</p>

<p>I agree on this part: a low Coding score might indicate visual processing problems that could interfere with reading fluency. But IQ tests, by themselves, do not show dyslexia or reading-related Specific Learning Disabilities. </p>

<p>Contrary to stereotypes, most dyslexics have solid visual processing and don’t reverse b/d’s. In fact, most dyslexics think in pictures, not in words. </p>

<p>fMRIs show that people <em>without</em> reading disabilities tend to process language in the left hemisphere, and process nonverbal images in the right hemisphere. However, dyslexics tend to process both verbal and nonverbal information in the right hemisphere–which leads to inefficient language processing. </p>

<p>Rapid Naming tests are often good predictors of reading-based disabilities. (And Rapid Naming scores are closely linked to the hemisphere the person uses to process words. People who process words in the left hemisphere tend to have higher Rapid Naming scores.) The Gray Oral Reading Test also is good for measuring all aspects of reading–from rate to accuracy to fluency to comprehension. KTEA, WIAT and WJ are more common for measuring reading achievement, but not as precise.</p>

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<p>Yes, my son has taken KTEA, WIAT and WJ along the lines. My son “learned” to read via Dr. Suess Hop on Pop, we figured it was the visual cues of the “shape” of the words that clicked with him. It’s fascinating “stuff.” He has never reversed letters. He is ambidrextrous. He couldn’t do jumping jacks for years. But he is a strong athlete in 3 sports. He is 99th percentile in Math testing and is no longer tested for Math except as part of the KTEA. Interesting on the “Coding” portion of the WISC, it is without a doubt the lowest score for him. Ironically Symbol Search is above average which I was told is visual/motor quickness and is a measure of patience and concentration. His comphrehension is high as is letter-number sequence and comphrehension. Matrix Reasoning is quite low (below average.) Processing speed is low (relative to everything else).I can’t remember all the tests that were given to diagnose his dyslexia, I just remember the psychologist telling us he was a “classic” dyslexic with no other issues. He’s getting all As in high school, but the heavier reading is starting to take it’s toll I fear. For this year the only accomodations that we’ve written into the IEP is additional time if he needs it. But we may have adjust for next year.</p>

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<p>Thanks everyone-- D is on a 504 (for accommodations) not an IEP. Seems the WISC is the only test necessary for this in MA. She does well in school and in life, (with an occasional black hole, like geometry), so for the moment at least my main worry is the standardized tests. She has extra time and is allowed to record responses in the booklet (test ‘bubbles’ are impossible for her)-- but geometry, mapping, anything visual are hopeless for her and I know this is really going to hurt the scores. She’s in 10th grade and will take the PSAT in a trial run next week-- that should give us a baseline to work from.</p>

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<p>GwenF–</p>

<p>Glad she’s doing well on a 504. Some schools let the tail wag the dog and only give IEPs to kids who neatly fit into one of the 13 IEP categories. Well, NLD is not an IEP category. (It’s not even in the Diagnostic & Statistical Manual…yet.) Most schools don’t know how to categorize NLD. </p>

<p>To be fair, Dyslexia and ADHD are also not IEP categories. Thankfully, some schools are more interested in providing services than arguing semantics.</p>

<p>Yes, my NLDer couldn’t tell time on an analog clock until about 8th grade. She still struggles to read maps and even timelines. Anything on graph paper gives her a headache. She can’t draw a stick person. Yet she has a photographic memory and an uncanny memory for faces. </p>

<p>See how your dd does on the PSAT but don’t panic. Make sure that she uses any classroom accoms such as extended time or keyboarding. The College Board and ACT are making it much tougher to get those accoms–unless the school provides proof that the student needs those accoms and is using those accoms regularly.</p>

<p>Even with accoms, her college entrance exam scores may not be exceptionally high. If not, colleges that put excessive weight on a student’s SAT/ACT scores may not be a good fit for your dd. My dd was able to get a decent merit scholarship to a small LAC. Her scholarship would have been higher if her SAT/ACT had been higher. But that’s life. Half-way through her first semester of college, she’s happy, thriving (even passing college math!) and blossoming. That’s worth it to us!!</p>

<p>momofthree–</p>

<p>If your “classic dyslexic” is getting all As, that’s fabulous!! As I told Gwen, make sure that he’s using Extended Time in class/for tests if and when he needs it. That’s the only way to get that accom on the SAT. (Both of my kids got extended time on both the SAT and ACT, and dd got keyboarding for her essay portions. Both kids said they really needed the extra time.)</p>