<p>My S attends (and my older S, now in college, attended) a public HS that sends a substantial number of students to top schools, and where over 90% attend college immediately after HS. I have never heard that the students were particularly stressed out or over worked. I know my youngest S is not, and my oldest was not. Still, when taking courses at a top Ivy populated for the most part by pre-med students, S (older) said they were not unlike his high school classes. Though not nearly as theoretical nor as demanding in terms of going beyond the coursework, he felt his HS was good preparation for his study at UChicago, as well. I'm not sure high quality necessarily equals high pressure.</p>
<p>D went to public sub HS, which offers Honors and many AP courses. It is challenging if the kids want it to be. Lots of regulars classes offered, too. The high achievers really had to work. She was sal. However, that said, D is at LAC and although she scored 800 of SATII Writing, she feels that her writing skills aren't up to snuff. She is working harder on her papers than she ever had to before. And her teachers thought she was a great writer, expecially compared to others. But when I think about it, it is very difficult for a teacher with 180 kids (no exaggeration) to keep up with grading and correcting papers all the time. There is a necessity of sleeping and having a life once in a while. That said, she is doing fabulously. She has many friends at the highly rated and ranked state premier uni who are having to do a lot of work, too, but according to them, it is a lot of busy work. Another of her friends, who was a high achiever, dropped her major in the Honors program, because it was too easy and she felt she wasn't being challenged. She changed majors, and feels more challenged, yet still feels it is too easy. So, it depends on the school, the program, and the kid.</p>
<p>I should add to this thread the statement that for a student who is curious and likes a subject, high-level doesn't have to mean high pressure. As best I can recall my own high school experiences (and I kept some diaries and other writings from that day, as a reality check on my memories today), it was more frustrating and unpleasant for me to have a too easy curriculum than it is for my son to have a challenging curriculum. Minnesota had the first program in the country like WA state's Running Start program--here it is called PSEO--and participation is wholly voluntary and quite popular. Some young people really, truly like to do college-level academic work at high-school age. I'm glad that the article reports that there are more opportunities to do that now than there once were.</p>
<p>My daughter attended a public high school with academics that were dismal by comparison to the prep schools discussed in the article-- and only reasonably good for public high school standards. She finds academics at Barnard/Columbia to be challenging, but something that she can reasonably handle. She has a decent foundation for college work and she finds the time management issues easier in college than in high school, simply because there is not as much time wasted sitting in class on a daily basis -- that is, at least she doesn't have to attend classes from 8 am to 3 pm daily, nor sit around wasting time in a classroom while nothing is being learned -- so the use of class & study time at college is far more efficient. And she is <em>emotionally</em> well prepared for college -- that is, she spent her high school years being a normal teenager, with a good balance between school, EC's, & healthy social life. </p>
<p>So all-in-all, I would have liked to see academics at my daughter's high school strengthened somewhat, but given the choice between her "B" level high school and the academic powerhouses described in the article, I'm glad my kid spent her teen years faced with age-appropriate expectations. I am seeing her intellectually stretched at college, but it seems like a good stretch at the right time.</p>
<p>High school students in CC's High School Life Forum are discussing this article also. </p>
<p>Both my kids go to competitive entry programs. My DH went to Bronx Science in the late 70s -- that was the benchmark we sought for our kids' education. Happily, we were able to find it in our public school system.</p>
<p>DS1 is a junior in a program within a much larger, diverse school; the school offers ~25 APs and the magnet programs offers two years of post-AP Calc (he will take Complex Analysis second semester next year). DS1 will wind up with about 10 AP exams (spread over 10th-12th) by the time he graduates. My sense is that this is around the average, though with block scheduling, it is difficult to take more without going the self-study route (i.e., AP science courses are double period, meaning 90 minutes a day, five days a week -- or 25% of one's schedule). </p>
<p>DS1 has decided not to self-study APs and instead spends considerable free time doing comp sci competitions and independent study in math and CS. His ECs are, by CC standards, are academic and narrowly focused. On the other hand, they are deep, long-standing, and he loves doing them -- they broaden his mind and his social life. Who he is in real life and who he presents on college apps will be one and the same person.</p>
<p>We have talked a lot about stress and the pressure to get into college; he and I both read "The Overachievers" and that generated LOTS of fruitful conversation. He emphatically tells me he doesn't feel the stress that the kids in that book experience, though he knows kids who do. He thrives on challenge -- what's stressful to him is boredom. He doesn't just mumble the "right" words to me -- he posts them on his Facebook to all his friends. The program he attends has given him the opportunity to learn at his level and pace, which in turn gives him the freedom to develop socially and emotionally.</p>
<p>DS2 is a freshman in a full IB Diploma program. Loves the school, has made tons of friends, is doing debate, Model UN, stage crew and football. The workload is daunting (it's a heavier load than his brother's), grades are decent but definitely not straight As. Friends who have graduated from this IB program tell us that college is easier -- mainly because in order to survive, one must become disciplined and self-motivated. </p>
<p>I am already seeing DS2 getting more proactive in his education -- doing reading assignments ahead of time, double-checking assignments with classmates, going to get help from teachers -- and I am breathing a huge sigh of relief. </p>
<p>Both kids have told DH and me that one of the best parts of going to competitive programs is that they are with kids who also value school.</p>
<p>Is it possible stress comes not from work, but when someone has to juggle five things they have to complete same night and yet maintain their ECs and tough course load? So stress may come not from work but due to lack of time or a short time can be a contributing factor. </p>
<p>Think if someone of us, has to finish necessary work in office as the deadline is today and work is assigned two days which are needed to finish the assignemnets, and it needs to be done. Now suddenly the date work is due, one has a sick child home same day - would it induce stress. I think a possibility exist.</p>
<p>I don't go to a particularly challenging high school but I've found ways to challenge myself; when I became interested in physics, I started trying my hand at quite a few difficult problems on my own. I spent so much time reading & solving interesting (non-textbook) Physics & Calculus problems on my own that by the time I took AP Calculus, most of Calc I was second-nature to me.</p>
<p>I've heard of people taking advanced classes like Differential Equations in high school. I considered the option of skipping the AP Calculus class and going to a college for Calculus, which would have given me time to finish Differential Equations. However, I decided instead to spend a year in AP Calculus; this year (senior) I'm taking Calc II & III as well as freshman-level Physics at a college.</p>
<p>Even though AP Calculus was an "easy" course for me, I think that I made the right decision in waiting a year before going to the real college-level math courses. It gave me another year to just play around with various ideas; I think that this has been just as beneficial for me as actual coursework. Also, since I'm planning to major in Physics, I feel that it's best to try not to rush things too much - there will be plenty of time to study the truly advanced concepts (like relativity) over the coming years, but it will be hard to bring my knowledge to a professional level if the building blocks aren't solidly in place.</p>
<p>I think sometimes it's a good idea to slow down the pace a little. There's a point where increasing a high school student's load becomes more harmful than beneficial.</p>
<p>My son's school was one of those mentioned in the article and since he got there I've heard how after high school, college is a breeze -- and they mean Ivy League, Stanford and MIT. It's not just the AP classes, it's having teachers with doctorates and/or particular expertise who teach with real passion. It's not for everyone -- meeting such high standards takes not only innate intelligence but a lot of hard work. But students who do this are rewarded -- our school places at all the top schools because those schools know the quality of the education our school provides. Sure, it costs a small fortune, and it's not in our neighborhood, so my year old car already has 40K miles on it, but for smart, motivated kids such an "incredible" school is worth it.</p>
<p>I just wanted to throw this out there... I was an IB Diploma student and I took a couple classes first semester of college that were review. I went to class, but I never opened the text books and didn't do any problems or any of the homework (because it was "for our benefit" aka not graded). Then I got a C, in both of them. Guess I learned my lesson, but I was bummed that I didn't get the credits for the IB classes I deserved (as I could still help people with their first few weeks of organic chem homework 2nd semester), and I didn't put any effort into taking them the "second" time, and the results were less than desirable. I still feel that I was extremely well prepared, as do other IB kids. The idea of huge papers due soon doesn't worry us, because we wrote so many essays in high school. We feel college is easier because we have fine tuned the skills that are needed, like writing essays, and all the trivial work is gone, and in addition we are only in class half the time in college that we were in high school. So we have much more time.</p>
<p>In fact, I think it might work against me in that regard, because I cannot motivate myself to start papers until right before they are do, because I know that I can write it fairly quickly and do well on it.</p>
<p>The article doesn't mention what other posters here have - that the high school students are juggling intense sports, music and other e.c.s in their quest to land a spot at the competitive college. Many students will not continue the dedicated pursuit of these e.c.s in college, instead opting to do club sports, musical e.c.s that require less time, etc. It's a natural progression - the student who makes All State musician in high school but doesn't intend to major in music can participate in college but has nothing to 'prove' musically. Other factors come into it - the public high schools in our area do not have indoor tracks. All of them use the local community college's nice facilities, but it means that meets are scheduled until 10 on school nights and all day Sunday. College athletes (with the exception of those appearing on national t.v. in very competitive sports) don't usually have to deal with that and have to be in the classroom at 7:45 a.m. the next morning.</p>
<p>I'm glad that you started a thread on this article, tokenadult. I read it and was dismayed by it. My older S is an extremely able student who has been frustrated by our local HS/MS (he is in 8th grade but takes HS math and science classes). Most of the teachers are great, but most of the kids are not really interested in learning. Some of them are completely disaffected and don't care about school and some of them care very much about grades and getting into HYP (where the school regularly places top graduates), but not really about learning. We have made the difficult decision to send him to an independent HS (if he is accepted) and have almost finished the arduous process of applying to three schools, one of which was mentioned in the article. I am NOT looking for a stressful situation for him. As others have said, what we want is a higher level of academics, not a higher level of stress. I'm also looking for balance. In the public HS, playing on an athletic team or being in the musical require a tremendous time commitment. In the independent schools, at least according to them, these activities are kept in their place and it is possible to participate without completely giving up the rest of your life.</p>
<p>My S is ready for college-level work intellectually. He is NOT ready organizationally. He is not even ready for MS work organizationally. Sorry; I'm veering off topic here.</p>
<p>NYmom, an athletic team or musical will not be any less time-consuming at the independent schools your son is applying to (I am familiar with all 3 of them). The difference I've seen between the kids at our local public high school and the kids at my sons' private school is that the private school kids tend to take on far fewer EC's. I'm amazed by the list of EC's I've seen here on CC - there is no way my sons could have done all those activities and handled their academic workload. Instead the private school kids focus on just a couple of EC's - this is the norm at their school and colleges seem to be fine with this.</p>
<p>I agree with lefthandofdog above - I don't think my son would say that college is easier than his rigorous private high school. He does think that he has far more free time now that he isn't playing 3 varsity sports, and of course in college you spend far less time in the classroom than the 7 hours of high school each day, and he is taking 4 classes instead of 5 or 6 plus "extras" like art or music. So he has lots of extra hours in the day. But the academics are intellectually more demanding than a high school AP class.</p>
<p>While our son attended a very middle class suburban school district and did not have nearly the intensity of the hs's mentioned in the NYTimes article, I believe that it is very good in preparing its students for college.</p>
<p>The AP courses are very academically challenging and as a result limit them to only juniors and seniors and then only allow them to take three at one time. Yes soph can petition to take an AP class and upper classmen can petition to take more than 3 but this rarely happens. And there is little of that pesky grade inflation either. Our son's unweighted gpa of 3.304 resulted in a class ranking of top 5%. His APCalcAB grade was 83%(B- ?)but he got an AP grade of 5 and has recieved 2-A's and 1-B in his college math courses thus far.</p>
<p>The result is that the AP classes are not college "lite" but every bit as challenging as their college equivalent and they can be because the students are limited to three and the teachers are free to assign college level readings and problem sets. I do not see how hs's, whose students are in classes from 8am to 3pm, can then allow their students to take 5 or 6 AP courses at one time and then expect them to be assigned college level home works, participate in after class activities and then complete their assignments that evening. Their "workday would be a crushing 8am to midnite ordeal most days. And that is not something hs administrators should be bragging about.</p>
<p>The bottom line is this based on our experience. HS's should challenge its best students academically but adopt rigorous grading policies and sane AP course policies. It teaches them to work hard, take a limited number of AP courses which require college level workloads, and expect an A grade only for truely excellent work. His 3.304 uwgpa prepared him so well that his college gpa is 3.794, nearly .75 above the average gpa at RPI.</p>