Doing research with profs

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>Currently I'm a freshmen in Canada, interested in MBB (Molecular Biology and Biochemistry) and Chemistry.
I'm thinking of doing research with profs when I start my second year on September, 2007. I also thought about starting structure research program like NSERC early, but in Canada, it requires at least full second year of undergrad study.
But after reading a thread, "Maybe I'm not meant to go to grad school" posted by dcb1001, I'm afraid I might end up just like him.</p>

<p>This especially worries me:

[quote]
I've been working at a fluids physics lab since my freshman year of college. It's been three years, and for the last two, the professors have been promising me my own publishable research "soon". But funding is scarce, and they have to support their grad students, so often I get pushed aside to help out by cleaning the lab or doing nothing at all. I've been waiting patiently for these grad students to graduate, only to find out that they've just accepted a new set of graduate students, most of whom will graduate well after I'm done with undergrad.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How likely is it that the profs at my university will also mislead me into believing that I'll get published someday "soon", even though they actually have no intent to ever allow me do so?
Until I came across dcb1001's thread, I guess I was too optimistic about finding success in doing research with profs.
What can I do to prevent ugly things similar to what happened to dcv1001 from happening to me?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

<p>very likely, thats the nature of undergrad research. you have to start from somewhere. it is very rare for undergrad to publish anyways. i would be more concerned if that is posted by a grad student. undergrad research is about learning basics and getting your foot in the door. just do science, publications will be there if you get results.</p>

<p>I'm a freshman and I just started doing research with a professor this year. I think one of the best things about where I'm working is that it's a relatively small lab. That means that the PI is working directly with me. In fact, he gave me my own project. He also found fellowships for me to apply to so that I can get paid for the work that I do. A lot of people have actually mistaken me for a grad student because my PI gives me the same work and responsibilities as the grad students get.</p>

<p>So, first of, my advice is to try and find a smaller lab where you're going to get more personal attention. If you find that all you're doing is cleaning the lab, contact other professors and see if you can work somewhere else. </p>

<p>The other point of that story was just that you shouldn't give up or get disillusioned. There are lots of professors just like mine that do want to help students and to teach. You might have to look around a while to find one, but it's possible.</p>

<p>everlasting13: Thanks for your input. Could you please answer my questions below?:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>How did you find the right prof? Did you email every single potential prof? Did you send all of them the same messages, by copying and pasting? In addition, did you have to visit all of them during their office hours, or did you visit only those who accepted you via email?</p></li>
<li><p>You advised me to find a smaller lab. But my question is, are all the smaller labs always better than the bigger labs? Also, what kinds of labs are considered small or big? When profs agree to do research with you, can you ask him/her if the lab you're going to work in will be small or big? If it's inappropriate to ask such things, what are the ways of finding out about the lab size yourself? </p></li>
<li><p>You also told me I might have to look around a while to find one, but how long would that be? I'm worried if I'll ever end up finding great ones like yours in a short period of time. How could you find the good ones efficiently and effectively, without wasting needless effort and time? Do you just need to keep labouriously looking around for weeks or even months until finding one?</p></li>
<li><p>I heard that it is good to ask profs whose classes you've taken. But I didn't have the chance to take classes with any profs doing research in my area (MBB), yet. When you asked your current research prof to do research with you, did s/he know you because you took his/her class before?</p></li>
<li><p>When you asked various profs about doing research, what did you say your reason was for wanting to do research? I heard that you should tell them what aspects of their research you're interested in after reading about their researches at their websites. I read about some researches and ongoing works of profs' in my field by visiting their websites, but I didn't really understand any of it, probably because I have yet to take all the appropriate second or third-year courses. How could you possibly try to show interest in their project when you don't understand it? What would be appropriate to tell them when they ask about your motivation for wanting to do research with them? Were you able to understand and show interest in profs' project when you asked to do research with them?</p></li>
</ol>

<ol>
<li><p>I honestly just got lucky. When I emailed professors, I had no idea what I was doing or what to expect. What I basically did was choose two professors whose area of research sounded interesting to me, and I emailed them. I sent two different emails, and I wouldn't advise just copy pasting. Chances are, you're going to be sending emails to professors in the same department, and it's not unlikely that they know each other. It would reflect poorly on you to send the exact same email, in that case. I also wouldn't recommend emailing very many professors. Choose one or two that seem the most interesting to you, and wait to see if they respond. When I was applying, someone told me that you don't want to spam your department with unsolicited requests for employment, and I completely agree. </p></li>
<li><p>All smaller labs are definitely not always better than the bigger labs. I advised to try and find a smaller lab because if your PI only has, let's say, 2 graduate students, he's going to be more able and more willing to spend time with you than if he had 10. Of course, there are professors with large labs who would do the same. Like I said, my lab is small. My PI has three postdocs, and one grad student. I'm the only undergrad. He also coordinates the work of some others. I also don't think you should ask about lab size. But most faculty have a webpage, so you can get some idea from that. When I was looking, I noticed that a lot of professors listed all the post docs, grad students, etc that worked for them.</p></li>
<li><p>I'm not sure how your school is, but at my school, there's introductory seminars for most of the majors that have faculty who speak about their research. Those professors would probably be good ones to contact. Some other schools have classes or programs that set you up with a lab. Try looking for one of those. If your school used to have one but doesn't now, the same professors who were a part of the old program would still be a good choice to contact. Another department here has a website where professors who are looking for undergraduates who want to do research post project descriptions and you can email them if you're interested. Look around at your school and see if there's anything like that. Also, don't just look at professors in the MBB department. There are going to be professors at the school of medicine or school of pharmacy (if your university has either one) that are doing MBB and would be open to working with undergraduates. However, I still know people who had to try out 3 or 4 labs before finding one that worked for them.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I might be wrong about this part, but I get the idea that funding for MBB and for physics are completely different. It seems like biology is much better funded than physics in general (someone correct me on this, if I'm wrong). More funding will mean that a professor can support you as well as the grad students. I'm not getting paid right now, but my PI said that even if I don't get any of the fellowships I applied for, he'll be able to give me money just out of his grant for the summer. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>I didn't have the chance to take classes with any professors doing research in my area (bioengineering) either. Both of the two professors who I emailed had no idea who I was. Since they don't know who you are, it's important to be concise and clear. When I sent the emails, I included a very short introduction (my name, my major, etc), and a very short explination of how I found them. Then I expressed my interest in a particular part of their research, and asked if they had any projects in that area that I could work on. </p></li>
<li><p>When I was looking for a professor to email, I had the same problem. I tried reading some of the papers that they published, but there was a lot of jargon and a lot of methods that I didn't understand. I decided to just look at their profiles rather than their actual papers. The profiles will talk about their general area of research, but won't be so indepth that it'll be over your head even if you look up the terms. In an email, you can show interest in that general area. Also, when I went to talk to my PI for the first time, he explained all the current projects that they're working on to me. I didn't understand some parts so I asked questions, which in itself shows interest. If a professor asks about your motivation, I would just tell the truth. Obviously, don't say "I want to publish papers so I can get into grad school." But if you're considering a career in research and want to try it out to see if it's a good fit for you, you can just say that. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Sorry, that was really long. I hope I answered all of your questions. If you have any more, feel free to ask.</p>

<p>everlasting's posts are great. I suspect his/her college is one of the top research colleges that have a well-established (and funded) undergrad research program. OP, your mileage may be different.</p>

<p>
[quote]
How likely is it that the profs at my university will also mislead me into believing that I'll get published someday "soon", even though they actually have no intent to ever allow me do so?

[/quote]

Usually no because it is a waste of time for both parties. But there are clear signs that one is on the right track. </p>

<p>First, you get started by helping in some aspect of an on-going research (cleaning doesn't count!). Then, as your understanding of the field improves, you learn reading papers (tons of them!). Later, you spend times doing those "little experiments" that your professor wants to try. Then, you learn to understand your results and perhaps formulate potential solutions together with your professor. Finally, as both of you go back and forth, you will achieve some non-trivial results and your professor sees them as publishable and you will be off to learn writing "your paper". You may never reach the "last step" given the unpredictable nature of research. But as you repeat these steps a couple of time, you should get smarter about what's worth trying and what's not. Also, your experience depends A LOT on the competency of your professor. A great one can really point you in the right direction and make the effort very rewarding. So don't just go with any professor. Check him/her out. Talk to his grad students/postdocs. Look at his pub history etc. On the other hand, as you are starting out, be humble, there are a lot of transferable skills, e.g. reading a paper, that you need to first pick up. </p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

<p>everlasting13: You are just awesome! :) Thank you so much for taking the time to answer all my questions thoroughly. </p>

<p>dallas808:
[quote]
...your experience depends A LOT on the competency of your professor. A great one can really point you in the right direction and make the effort very rewarding. So don't just go with any professor. Check him/her out. Talk to his grad students/postdocs. Look at his pub history etc.

[/quote]
Could you give me any tips on identifying a great prof? What do things like his/her profile, website, and pub history have to look like? How can you contact grad students/postdocs? Is it appropriate to email them and ask about how certain prof is like?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

<p>IMO, you want someone who is willing to make the commitment to "guide" you. </p>

<p>Tips worth considering:
1. See if a professor has a history of publishing with his undergrad students. Publication isn't easy in many fields; but a professor who has some positive experience with undergrad in the past will more likely see you as an potential asset than liability. It also means the professor actually has some clues on where the promosing areas lie. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>The grad students/postdocs of a professor will usually make every guarded comment about their "boss". What you want to dig more is the way a professor works and see that fits your style/personality. Also important is the general atmosphere in the lab/research center. Some are very rigid. Others are funs where everyday is TGIF. Because many of these grad students/postdocs are your future co-workers (and often time mentors), see if you can work with them. Don't do e-mail. Meet in person. Many graduate students hold office hours and won't mind you buying them a latte. Trust me on this one! ;)</p></li>
<li><p>Treat this process like a job hunting. </p></li>
<li><p>The greatest one is the someone you are comfortable enough to bring home to meet your parents or take out to lunch/dinner with your parents.</p></li>
</ol>