<p>I followed my heart and went into engineering. I love what I'd do and I'd do it if they paid me half of what they paid me. They originial poster is a moron.</p>
<p>I hope I never get stuck in management</p>
<p>I've been an engineer since the mid-1980s. I've worked a lot of hours and shipped a lot of products and it's pretty rewarding work. If you're in the right place at the right time, you can hit the jackpot. It's good, hard, honest work.</p>
<p>The opportunities for management are there if you take the time to learn about management and work to a level where you become the natural choice when management opportunities arise. Many engineers do not want to go into management though. We've been steadily hiring at my office and I ran into a new hire this past Friday.</p>
<p>It isn't for everyone and not everyone can do it but it isn't a bad life.</p>
<p>I work for a Dutch company in southwestern Ct. Over the last year, even though the company isn't doing that great, I see a ton of Chinese and Indian engineers working here who are not citizens. The company does this because they can hire them for a lot cheaper than they can hire citizens.</p>
<p>We hire non-citizens too, but usually after they go to schools and get advanced degrees over here. I don't think that they get paid less than citizens but, even if they do, their salaries will equalize with citizens over time.</p>
<p>There was a good commentary by Lou Dobbs on CNN regarding H1B visa for foreign employees and how US companies use it to get cheap labor, including Bill Gates who he had some really tough words for, at the expense of US workers. There is definitely something to what some here have been saying regarding this issue.</p>
<p>They are definitely paid less - that's why they're hired. We have no problems finding and hiring citizens who have the requisite credentials except they are more expensive.</p>
<p>coskat, maybe you're referring to the CNN episode that can be viewed at Programmers</a> Guild: Lou Dobbs challenges Bill Gates to debate H-1b visa The reference to Bill Gates in particular starts around time 3:45, but the whole clip is worth watching.
[quote]
The study shows that between 1985 and 2000 435,000 U.S. citizens and permanent residents a year graduated with Bachelors, Masters, and Doctoral degrees in Science and Engineering. That's three times the number of jobs in Science and Engineering added per year, 150,000 during that time.</p>
<p>Separately Michael Teitelbaum at the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation told Congress last week that neither he nor a separate study by the RAND Corporation can find any evidence of worker shortages. These studies are not anomalies.</p>
<p>VIVEK WADHWA, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Bottom line is that all of our research at Duke and now at Harvard shows the same thing. That there is no shortage of engineers; there's no shortage of scientists. Companies aren't going abroad because of skills. They're going abroad because it's cheaper.
[/quote]
BCEagile, who in post #43 claims about 20 years experience in engineering, writes in post #46
[quote]
I don't think that they get paid less than citizens but, even if they do, their salaries will equalize with citizens over time.
[/quote]
I think this shows BCEagle is misrepresenting himself (eg. not an engineer). Every working engineer knows that H1B visas are good for 3 years (extensible to a max of 6 years). How do their salaries equalize over time if they're forced to leave the country?</p>
<br>
<p>I think this shows BCEagle is a fraud (eg. not an engineer). Every working engineer knows that H1B visas are good for 3 years (extensible to a max of 6 years). How do their salaries equalize over time if they're forced to leave the country?</p>
<br>
<p>Is it your assertion that all H1B holders are forced to leave the country? You have 25 posts to your name. My posting history is a little longer. You can go through that history if you wish though it will take some time. I think that you'll find the knowledge of a professional software engineer in there.</p>
<p>I work with other engineers from asian countries. Some are citizens now and some are permanent residents. Some are still on H1B visas. Those that are citizens and permanent residents now have comparable salaries to those born here.</p>
<p>and is it safe to assume that none of these H1B workers/permanent residents turned citizens got their jobs at the expense of equally qualified native US citizens?? One has to wonder are our schools not turning out qualified American engineers thereby forcing the likes of Bill Gates & others to go elsewhere for their workforce. Is it truly a lack of American talent or lack of desire to pay for it?</p>
<p>"and is it safe to assume that none of these H1B workers/permanent residents turned citizens got their jobs at the expense of equally qualified native US citizens??"</p>
<p>The last three people we hired are native citizens. But we have several foreign-born Phds that certainly earned their slots. They did research work in the right area for us to pick them up and they did a good job in interviews. We typically do 8 to 16 hours of interviews. One of them has been a manager for a while, another a project leader and the third will eventually be a manager (my prediction as he's doing all of the right things to take a leadership position).</p>
<p>We live in a global marketplace and that includes labor. So you're competing with the very best from around the world.</p>
<p>"Are our schools not turning out qualified engineers?"</p>
<p>I'm sure that they are. But a lot of their students are foreign-born. I mentored a student from Stanford on a project this past summer and he just blew me away with his ability to pick things up. His forward plans are quite impressive too. But not all schools are Stanford, Berkeley and MIT.</p>
<p>depends on your son's goals</p>
<p>
[quote]
professor101 writes in post #28: US graduates between 1.2 to 1.3 millions undergraduate students per year and 60,000 to 70,000 are engineers, or 5% of the total. About 20% of Fortune 500 CEOs have undergraduate degrees in engineering. So, engineers have 4 times the chance of an average graduate to become a big CEO.
[/quote]
If this poster really IS a prof, that's frightening.! What he passes off as "reasoning" is little more than superstition! Here's a defn. of superstition: a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation</p>
<p>The average income in Bill Gate's zipcode is pretty high. Do I raise my chances of a huge income if I sublet a room somewhere in that zipcode? Do I raise my chances of playing championship golf if I mimic some of the characteristics of Tiger Woods -- use the clubs he uses, or drive the car he drives? </p>
<p>Correlation does not imply causality, a mantra drummed into the heads of everyone who's ever taken Stat 1 (but apparently unknown in professor101's field).</p>
<p>Seems to me like, in a way, you're saying don't go to an engineering college unless it's a really good College.</p>
<p>And what about an engineering degree in a liberal arts college :P (Harvey Mudd)</p>
<p>First of all, a lot of the complaints made about engineering could be made about other majors. Besides engineers, pre-med students, nursing students and natural sciences majors also spend lots of time in the library studying and have heavy courseloads that allow little time for major exploration. At many colleges engineering majors are still required to take core courses and ge requirements, which means they have the opportunity to explore other fields. There are quite a few fields that are limited geographically (consulting and finance are two lucrative, but geographically limited, positions) and there are other fields that have long hours (teachers, doctors, lawyers, graduate/professional school students, consultants, some managers, I can probably think of more)</p>
<p>I'm not sure what's wrong with having a lot of foreign co-workers, but that idea that liberal arts majors who stay with a bachelor's degree will surpass engineering majors with a BS is a little ridiculous. Degrees like psychology, philosophy, history, modern foreign languages, and political science -- while useful and interesting -- have average 10-years-in salaries much lower than the 10-years-in salary of engineers. The median salary for all engineers ranges from the high 60K to the high 90K, according to BLS.</p>
<p>In any event, the Bureau of Labor Statistics has predicted that for the decade 2006-2016, the outlook for engineers is good and that the field will grow about as fast as the average (7 to 13 percent). Certain types of engineering jobs -- biomedical, civil, environmental, industrial -- will grow faster than the average, whereas other types -- computer, electrical, materials, mechanical, and petroleum -- will have slower growth than the average. There are, however, some caveats. For example, materials engineers who learn biomaterials and nanotechnology have more quickly-growing prospects, and petroleum engineers who become engaged in learning to use alternative fuels have a better outlook.</p>
<p>All in all, it looks mixed.</p>
<p>The problem here is obviously that MarlysGhost is more than willing to point out the flaws in engineering, but he doesn't realize that EVERY field has flaws. If you want to go to law school or medical school, there is the risk that you won't get in, and there is the cost of the extra years of schooling. </p>
<p>If you want to be a liberal arts major, there is the risk that there simply won't be a job. I know many people personally who have had that happen to them. </p>
<p>Maybe the career prospects for engineers aren't perfect, but an engineer out of a solid school is definitely going to get a job. You can't say the same thing about an English or Fine Arts major.</p>
<p>Okay, here is my response...as an engineering senior at one of the country's top/difficult programs:</p>
<p>1) you will miss out on a lot of fun in college, forsaking some of the best years of your life.
100% correct. College has pretty much sucked when it comes to fun. I cannot relate to my friend from HS.</p>
<p>2) you will miss the best chance you'll have to explore academic areas
100% correct. I've been struggling to complete the major requirements, which are highly rigorous in a breadth of subjects outside my interest.</p>
<p>3) you will be limited to working in a few major cities.
Sort of correct. It is true there are hotspots around the world when it comes to engineering. However, in aerospace start-ups you'll find a lot of guys move around between the desert and the cities.</p>
<p>4) the hours will be excessively long
Yup. We work a lot.</p>
<p>5) you will be surrounded primarily by men at work
Correct.</p>
<p>6) many if not most of your coworkers are going to be foreigners
Not terribly correct. America IS a melting pot so there are people with all sorts of different cultures here... so yes, you may work with lots of different kinds of people. American engineers, however, are still the highest quality engineers in the world.</p>
<p>7) your salary will top out early and those liberal-arts majors will catch and pass you
No no no. Your liberal arts friends will never have a salary as high as yours. Median starting salary for new undergrads from my school was $58k in 2005 and likely to be $60k+ now. Salary does not cap out as implied. 10-year salary is around $100k and 25-year salary is ~$130k. </p>
<p>8) by the time you're in your 30's you will be worried about keeping a job
What other jobs are more stable? Advertising? Come on, what do you want our youth to do, push papers/money all day? </p>
<p>9) you're NOT going to get into management
At any type of responsible engineering firm, it turns out old engineers are the managers. Else, managers don't know what the beep they are talking about.</p>
<p>10) the long-term outlook for engineers grows more dismal each year
Engineers should be paid more. We are, in effect, the unseen heros of society. We design and build everything that you enjoy... or the machinery that help make the thing you enjoy (books, computer you are using, your car, the roads, buildings, electricity, tv, cell phones, aircraft, sewage system, medical equipment, etc...).</p>
<p>The problem is that our society is full of too many parasites (sorry if I offend some of you). In order to maintain the quality of living we expect, we need to make progress as a society... and this doesn't mean pushing money around via services such as excessive litigation, marketing, quick-cash endeavors. This means making progress on things such as science and engineering so that our children have a stronger foundation for survival than ourselves. In doing so, I believe it is appropriate that people get paid based upon their contribution to society... not how much money they could swindle out of people.</p>
<p>Bottom line:
Engineering is tough, no doubt. There isn't much glamour... no TV shows about real engineering (only construction, dammit), but it is absolutely imperative that society keeps producing engineers in excess of 5% of the total population to keep societal momentum from dying.</p>
<p>IF YOU HAVE WHAT IT TAKES, BECOME AN ENGINEER!</p>
<p>"Engineers should be paid more."</p>
<p>Well, gee, there are people in India who can do just as good a job as you for 1/4 the cost. Why are you worth more again?</p>
<p>If you have what it takes, don't become an engineer!</p>
<p>Why is it implied that the only two possible major tracks are engineering and liberal arts?</p>