<p>Hi -- I'm a freshman at an Ivy League school looking ahead to law school. I am confident I will pursue political science as a first major, but it does require significantly fewer courses than most other majors. That said I am looking at possibly adding a sociology, anthropology, or some other humanities-related second major. While I am really interested in both of these areas, it seems this option will significantly limit the number of elective courses I can take outside of the area of my two majors. So, the big question: Does a double major by itself (assuming I do well in both majors) help my chances for law school more than simply a polisci major with an equivalent overall gpa and a range of other courses taken? Does anyone have advice or experience with this? Would the double major be more impressive if I took it in a field less related to polisci than say sociology, such as English? Thanks for any help!</p>
<p>Just take a minor in the other field. I don't think they care. Just get a high GPA. Do what you want, and don't think about what law school wants - excelling in your chosen field(s) is all they want to see (I guess any advantage you can get mihgt be necessary for Yale)</p>
<p>"I guess any advantage you can get mihgt be necessary for Yale"</p>
<p>I'd stop guessing and spell properly. ;)</p>
<p>A double major doesn't help in LS admissions at all from what I've seen. The only possible exception is when the two majors are wildly different. I don't mean poli sci and English--I mean comparative lit with a focus on Italian and French and physics. Even that really doesn't help much. Take what you enjoy and can do well in. Forget about which will look better on a LS app because it really doesn't matter.</p>
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I don't mean poli sci and English--I mean comparative lit with a focus on Italian and French and physics. Even that really doesn't help much.
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<p>I would wholeheartedly agree - from experience! Don't think my engineering/liberal arts dual degrees helped me out too much. </p>
<p>I would think that a thesis might attract more attention than a double major, since everyone seems to double-major (or triple, or double major and minor) and not many people do a thesis.</p>
<p>Theses are very common. At many colleges, anyone in the honors track has to do a thesis. At some colleges, writing a thesis is required to graduate. At others, they are required to get a degree in any humanities or social science field.
The OP attends an Ivy. It's my impression that if you lumped all the Ivies together, it's probable that the MAJORITY of Ivy poli sci majors applying to LS wrote a thesis as UGs.</p>
<p>Yet, a thesis won't hurt --especially if it's not required, which you could point out to admission committees. </p>
<p>And, of course, it should be a high quality thesis.</p>
<p>Not necessarily...</p>
<p>As a data point, my alma mater is NOT like that at all. Over 1/3 of the students double-major, but less than 1 in 10 write a thesis.</p>
<p>but the senior thesis is finished after law school applications are reviewed, so how can this influence admissions?</p>
<p>You can always send in the first few reviewed chapter - that's what's done for applying to graduate schools.</p>
<p>By the way, anthropology and sociology are social sciences, not humanities. ;)</p>
<p>Not to be too opinionated....</p>
<p>But KFC - really? At my school, well over half of my class did not apply to law school during their senior year. Many other law schools operate the same way. Why the assumption that you NEED to run straight from undergrad to law school? Hell, who even wants to try applying to 10 law schools and writing a thesis? </p>
<p>Ever heard of a thesis advisor? That might be a fantastic person to ask for a recommendation. Even if you don't have the completed thesis, you are registered (often) as doing one. You can put something like "Senior thesis on [blah blah blah], Expected Completion, May 2006" on your resume.</p>
<p>As Eric said, you can send the first chapters. </p>
<p>Who ever said that law schools accept everyone before theses are finished, anyway? Law school acceptances come in between December and August. You could always send in thesis updates as a way of keeping in touch with the school. If you are waitlisted, telling the school of any thesis honours might be a great way to improve your file.</p>
<p>...but, if you are dead-set on running straight to law school and can't be bothered with updating schools, then I guess writing a thesis wouldn't help you.</p>
<p>Writing a thesis is NOT going to give anyone an edge in applying to top LSs. It's really wholly irrelevant. </p>
<p>Nobody on a LS admissions committee, even at Yale (where the faculty reads apps), is going to sit down and read the chapters of someone's UG thesis. Nor are they, for that matter, going to sit down and read the master's degree and/or Ph.D. thesis of candidates who apply to LS with those credentials. </p>
<p>Yes, if someone is going to graduate school in anthropology, it makes sense to have it sent as part of an application to a Ph.D. program in anthropology. If you are applying to LS, it doesn't make sense to have your UG thesis in comparative French and Italian literature sent to LSs. NOBODY will read it. </p>
<p>LOTS of universities and colleges REQUIRE all students or all students in honors programs or all students majoring in the humanities or social sciences to write a thesis to get a degree. At Princeton, Eric Meng's school, everyone has to write a major paper as a junior and another major paper as a senior. At Harvard, last time I checked, everyone in the honors track and everyone majoring in social studies--one of the most common "pre-law" majors among Harvard UGs who go on to YHS law--has to write a thesis. At Yale, most departments require a thesis to get a degree. The situation is similar at a couple of the other Ivies I'm familiar with and at a couple of the top LACs I'm familiar with. It's a requirement for anyone in the honors program at a public university I'm familiar with. </p>
<p>While my evidence is anecdotal, I haven't seen any difference in results of law school applications between students who wrote an UG thesis and those who didn't. It's just irrelevant. If you've got any EVIDENCE that it makes a difference, Aries, share it. But, I don't think that the fact that only one in 10 students at your UG, one of thousands of colleges in the US, writes a thesis is proof that it is unusual. It isn't. Even if we all concede that it is, the fact that only one in ten people do any specific thing doesn't mean that specific thing helps get into top LSs. </p>
<p>At many colleges you do NOT register to write a thesis. At some colleges, there are standard "courses" for theses. For example, there might be "Poli Sci 322-the senior thesis." This will be the course that ALL poli sci majors or ALL poli sci majors in the honors track register in to write the thesis. At other schools, it's "an independent study." At others, you register for a regular seminar and choose to write a thesis rather than a regular paper. Nothing appears on your transcript that indicates a thesis has been written until it is completed. It works differently at different colleges. </p>
<p>Could writing a thesis lead to a better LOR? Yes, it could. But, as someone else has said, you won't have finished it when you apply to LSs if you do apply directly from college. And, there are many other ways to get to know faculty well. </p>
<p>Again, Aries,if you have some proof that a thesis is more helpful than a double major in winning an acceptance from a top LS, please share it. (I don't consider the fact that students who have written theses are more unusual at your own UG alma mater proof that writing a thesis is more helpful getting into a top LS. ) I've never seen any evidence that either matters one iota.</p>
<p>This is kind of an off the wall idea, why not complete your major with gusto and take a variety of other classes to help you to be an educated person...An environmental biology class, a music course, philosophy, classes on feminism, or greek history....so much to learn. You might learn something that will expand your horizons. Good luck with Law School.</p>
<p>First of all, I will reiterate my point that doing a thesis COULD help in law school admissions. Considering that law schools claim to want to see evidence of thorough research and writing abilities, a thesis might look good - because it involves, oh, I dunno, research and writing? A whole year of research and writing? Maybe I'm just mental. </p>
<p>We all know that GPA and LSAT determine about 80% of law school admissions, but those other 20% are up for grabs - and every school has a variety of different things they want to see in that 20%. Frankly, Jonri, unless you are certain that every law school in the country utterly discounts theses in admissions, you are completely out of line. Obviously, it also matters at which school you go to. Aside from Harvard, I don't know of any school that requires a thesis for honours. </p>
<p>Every year, up to 150,000 students take the LSAT. The Ivies do not account for more than 2,000 or 3,000 of those students. So why do you think that Ivies are the be-all and end-all of law school admissions? Harvard doesn't let people double-concentrate outside of their major but requires theses - of course, law school admissions officers know this. They also know that other students graduate with honours but without theses, and can adjust accordingly. Hello! Not rocket science!</p>
<p>About registration for theses - I'm sorry that you missed the (very obvious) point, which was course registration is but one method a student can use to communicate to admissions officers that he is completing a thesis. If a student can't figure out how to let law school admissions know that he is doing thesis work, then he doesn't belong in law school. It's just that simple. </p>
<p>A few months back, we had a disagreement over average LSAT scores at schools. I proved my point very aptly, and you promptly threw the largest fit I've seen on CC. You lied about what I had sent you, lied to everyone in the community about the content of the PM, and did the online equivalent of sulking in a corner when confronted with the fact that you were completely wrong. Pardon me, but I'm in no hurry to spend my time digging up information so you can do a repeat performance.</p>
<p>I discussed this same topic with my law school advisor last week. My dilemna was akin to Cait's: I was on the fence between double majoring and indulging in electives.</p>
<p>I was told that the career services department saw absolutely no correlation between success at top law schools and double majoring. They have a substantial sampling, too, of more than 500 applicants each year. Moreover, her advice was very similar to ariesathena's. She said that some schools view senior work for distinction as a plus, as it shows proficiency in a number of law related skills (research, argumentation viz. one's thesis defense, etc). She was, however, quick to point out that doing a thesis seems to have less bearing on admissions decisions for students applying during the fall of their senior years. She contended that if I decided to write one and apply to law school right out of college, then it would behoove me to have my advisor write a letter of recommendation highlighting the thesis.</p>
<p>This isn't a courtroom, Aries. You are right about that. It is, however, a forum about LS admissions. You are giving someone advice on what she ought to do in the future. Advice which other students reading this forum may follow. </p>
<p>I honestly think that the advice you gave is wrong. I said so. I asked what basis you have for telling a college freshman she'll do better in the LS admissions process if she writes a thesis than if she double-majors. Your answer is I'm a liar and a terrible person and the world isn't all about students at Harvard. My UG alma mater-which isn't Harvard-- requires a thesis to get an honors degree. My previous post noted that many LACs and the honors program at a public U I'm familiar with all require theses too. </p>
<p>You wrote:
"As Eric said, you can send the first chapters" of a thesis.</p>
<p>If someone wants to follow your advice and Eric's and send in copies of the first few chapters of his/her senior thesis into LS admissions offices, as you suggested, (s)he should feel free. If you really think I'm stupid because I don't think that LS admissions officers sit around reading theses--let alone drafts--in all different subjects about which they may well know next to nothing--you're entitled to your opinion. </p>
<p>I'm entitled to mine. And, despite all the mud you've thrown at me, you've given no basis for the opinion that writing a thesis is more likely to impress a LS admissions committee than double majoring.</p>
<p>Aries said: "I would think that a thesis might attract more attention than a double major, since everyone seems to double-major (or triple, or double major and minor) and not many people do a thesis." I disagreed. Aries said I am wrong because only 10% of students at her undergrad alma mater write a thesis. I don't think what her school does proves that "not many people do a thesis." </p>
<p>I searched on google to find out how common REQUIRED senior theses are. In some instances, I hit the home page of individual departments. Thus, I know that a thesis is required to major in or get honors at X college in a particular subject; I don't know if other departments require them.</p>
<p>Shimer College: All students must write a senior thesis.</p>
<p>South Carolina Honors College: All students in the honors college must write a senior thesis. </p>
<p>Schreyer's Honors College, Penn State: senior thesis required of all students.</p>
<p>Villanova U. All students in the honors program must write a senior thesis.</p>
<p>Bates College: required in most departments. 85% of Bates grads write a senior thesis.</p>
<p>Princeton: All students must write a senior thesis.</p>
<p>Ohio U.: To get honors in astronomy or physics, you must write a senior thesis. </p>
<p>U of Washington: All Women's Studies majors must write a senior thesis.</p>
<p>Washington & Lee: All philosophy majors must write a senior thesis.</p>
<p>BYU: All physics majors must write a senior thesis.</p>
<p>Skidmore: you must write a senior thesis to be eligible for departmental honors.</p>
<p>St. Michael's College Vermont: All French and Spanish majors must write a senior thesis.</p>
<p>UChicago: required of all Environmental Studies majors.</p>
<p>DePaul U. required of all Envionmenal Science majors.</p>
<p>Middlebury: required of all history majors.</p>
<p>U of Colorado at Colorado Springs: required of all history majors. </p>
<p>I know I'm belaboring the point, but again, I simply think that Aries is wrong when she says that "not many people do a senior thesis." Because MANY people do I really do not think it's going to make you stand out among LS applicants. Sure it "COULD" help as Aries said..but used in that sense a double major "COULD" help too. Lots of things "COULD" help. I just don't see any basis for Aries advice to write a thesis rather than double major because writing a thesis will be more help getting into LSs. Saying that is NOT a personal attack.</p>
<p>Thank you, Jonri.</p>
<p>There are some things that I will always maintain. Among them are that admissions officers can't read things that you don't send them. I doubt that many would read the first draft of a thesis or the first chapters - because at many schools, you would either be in or out depending on grades and LSAT. However, for some situations, an admissions person might skim a thesis and get a really good idea of what kind of writer you are. </p>
<p>Maybe I'm biased towards thinking this because I did better at schools where I sent in a copy of a final report I wrote for a Phase I project - not sure if they read it (or could comprehend it), but the admissions officers probably at least flipped through it. Then again, as an engineer, there isn't much from my transcript to demonstrate writing ability. A well-organized paper probably aptly demonstrated that I can write.</p>
<p>I also maintain that updating schools is VERY important. If you apply in September and get thesis honours in April (when you'll still be waiting on decisions from some schools), then sending along a note that you got thesis honours is a good way to keep in touch.</p>
<p>I will forever maintain that someone who is unable to communicate information that will help his file has no business in law school, where you learn to be a lawyer - and to communicate information that will help your client. Seriously - if you can't figure out how to send along pertinent information, then re-think your career plans.</p>
<p>The fact that theses might be required at many schools is beside the point - if it's optional at yours, and you are suffering through it, then make that known. That's what recommendations, personal statements, cover letters, and resumes are for. Honestly, you can find a way to communicate the fact that you did something exceptional during your undergrad. </p>
<p>I'm kind of shocked, Jonri, that you of all people don't think that law schools are aware of these things and adjust for them - after all, your big thing is that schools consider grades in light of LSAT scores. With years of experience and dozens of applications every year from students from a particular school, I would imagine that law school admissions officers are well aware that what is a requriement at one school may be outside of the norm at another. Harvard would never have let me take my major combination but would have required that I do a thesis (which I did not do, as, well, almost no engineers wrote theses or were even allowed to). Clearly, no law school is going to evaluate me as if I did my undergrad by Harvard's standards. </p>
<p>Allow me a nanosecond of major snobbery... but a LOT of those requirements that you posted are for cheesy majors. Women's studies? Environmental studies? Yeah, you need a thesis - so the school doesn't worry about sending you out into the world with a degree when all you did is sit around on your butt for four years.</p>