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I have asked some higher authorities on the dress-shirt-no-tie quandary (to undershirt or not to undershirt, that is the question). I'll report back.
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The Report Back, first from my two experts:
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<p>In light of your failure to even generally identify these supposed "experts" / "higher authorities" and/or describe what makes them qualified to opine on this issue, your supposed "expert" evidence has absolutely no value.</p>
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And from the "Dress Smart for Men" book from the Simple Chic book line, which is my personal professional style guide:
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<p>Nowhere in your quote does it says it's acceptable for your undershirt to be VISIBLE. I have no idea why you quoted this language-- desperation perhaps? Thus, your book provides no evidence in support of your preposterous theory that it's okay to wear an undershirt that's VISIBLE.</p>
<p>(By the way, people in the know recommend Flusser's "Dressing the Man" as the bible on style. I haven't read it, so I can't personally vouch for it.)</p>
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I consider my case rested.
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<p>And your case is dismissed for want of any credible evidence.</p>
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for the dean interview i'd say skip the jacket but wear a tie with a nice dress shirt and nice slacks.
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<p>Never wear a tie without a jacket/sweater/something; you'll look half-dressed. You'll look like a bank teller or a dead-end middle manager or something like that. It's almost as bad as the short-sleeved dress shirt look.</p>
<p>It's fine to take your jacket off as soon as you get wherever you are if it's not in an uber-formal setting like a job interview, important meeting, or lunch at The Four Seasons. But you show up wearing the jacket in all circumstances if you're wearing a tie.</p>
<p>Haha, agreed. I have a theory about that. In everyday life those who spend a ridiculous amount of effort/money on their clothes never make a big deal about it, fearing to appear metro or losing the "It's just something I threw on" BS effect.</p>
<p>So when they get the anonymity of the web, they go ape**** desperate over proving their fashion "guru" status because it's the only place they can claim it out loud. It can be pretty funny.</p>
<p>Visible undershirts have never been the Oh-gasp-sinners! thing that some people are trying to make them out to be here and i still see them around quite a bit. But I agree that they're ugly 80% of the time.</p>
<p>Final Advice: Just wear a Collected Thread low-collar undershirt like me. :) I agree that its pretty essential to protecting your nicer shirts and avoiding sweatpits in places where you're gonna move for hours (clubs) or the dreaded outside banquet in 80 degree wheather.</p>
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Haha, agreed. I have a theory about that. In everyday life those who spend a ridiculous amount of effort/money on their clothes never make a big deal about it, fearing to appear metro or losing the "It's just something I threw on" BS effect.</p>
<p>So when they get the anonymity of the web, they go ape**** desperate over proving their fashion "guru" status because it's the only place they can claim it out loud. It can be pretty funny.
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<p>This theory doesn't make all that much sense to me, as it's simply poor tact to tell someone else in person that they've committed a fashion faux pas. Nobody's going to tell a colleague that they look like an idiot for wearing a black suit or showing their undershirt, so a debate over these issues isn't going to facilitate. On the other hand, when someone asks a question online, it triggers a discussion.</p>
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Visible undershirts have never been the Oh-gasp-sinners! thing that some people are trying to make them out to be here and i still see them around quite a bit. But I agree that they're ugly 80% of the time.
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<p>OF COURSE YOU SEE THEM AROUND QUITE A BIT. Because there are all sorts of working class slobs who have no idea how to properly dress, and plenty of people with decent jobs who are too lazy to learn how to look the part. "Everyboy's doing it" doesn't make it right.</p>
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I agree that its pretty essential to protecting your nicer shirts and avoiding sweatpits in places where you're gonna move for hours (clubs) or the dreaded outside banquet in 80 degree wheather.
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<p>If you're in a club for hours, sweat is the least of your worries in terms of protecting your shirts. I'd be far more worried about some idiot spilling a drink on me -- or me spilling a drink on me.</p>
<p>oh please, we've been trying that for years, hasn't worked.</p>
<p>Here's a suggestion to all those reading this thread: If you are a man and are going to an interview with a Columbia alumnus, this is your decision tree:</p>
<p>(1) If your interviewer is Columbia2002, take his advice.</p>
<p>(2) If your interviewer is anyone else, take my advice and wear a freaking undershirt.</p>
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Here's a suggestion to all those reading this thread: If you are a man and are going to an interview with a Columbia alumnus, this is your decision tree:</p>
<p>(1) If your interviewer is Columbia2002, take his advice.</p>
<p>(2) If your interviewer is anyone else, take my advice and wear a freaking undershirt.
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<p>Ah, now you're playing the straw man game. This isn't about whether to wear undershirts. It's about having your undershirt (to the extent you must wear one) VISIBLE. I notice we haven't heard anything about the credentials of your supposed "experts," nor have you cited an influential fashion work for the proposition that undershirts may properly be visible.</p>
<p>And here's my suggested decision tree:</p>
<p>(1) If your interviewer is Denzera, it doesn't matter if your undershirt is visible.</p>
<p>(2) If your interviewer is me or Shraf or any other Columbia alumnus/a, make sure that any undershirt that you wear isn't visible.</p>
<p>(1) if your interviewer is anyone, don't put this much thought into whether your undershirt should show or not</p>
<p>(2) if you do put as much thought into it, you're missing the point of a college interview and you'll probably have a bad interview and not get in.</p>
<p>(1) If you're reading this, you put too much faith in numbered lists</p>
<p>(2) Ask your parents if you look decent beforehand. They should be able to tell you what's going to look clean and together. Or, just wear a polo. Visible undershirt with a polo isn't that big of a deal.</p>
<p>A polo is fine for Starbucks or something, but if you're interviewing at the interviewer's workplace (especially a formal one), then it's probably not.</p>
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The Report Back, first from my two experts:
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I notice we haven't heard anything about the credentials of your supposed "experts," nor have you cited an influential fashion work for the proposition that undershirts may properly be visible.
<p>Yeah, my experts were (1) a buyer of men's suits and formal wear at Macy's (who is, ironically enough, straight), and (2) My father, who has spent a lifetime in business and occasionally yells at me to get my shoes polished.</p>
<p>Care to share your qualifications on male sartorial elegance? Or are you just trying to pick a fight again?</p>
<p>Quite frankly, People think about all these details way too much.
I mean, yes, interview attire is one aspect of an interview, because you surely don't want to go looking like a bum.
Yet, at the same time, I think it should be more about the CONTENT of the interview that people should be worrying about.
Also, play close attention to the location you are assigned.
For example, my interview was in a Starbucks. I came dressed in business casual attire, and honestly felt a bit too overdressed compared to others around me. But, it's all about making a good impression, so hopefully it worked for me and not against me. Haha.
Good luck to all of you! =D.</p>
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Yeah, my experts were (1) a buyer of men's suits and formal wear at Macy's (who is, ironically enough, straight), and (2) My father, who has spent a lifetime in business and occasionally yells at me to get my shoes polished.
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<p>As for (1), I'm not sure how ordering fused sack suits for a living makes you an expert on proper business dress.</p>
<p>As for (2), my dad has also spent a lifetime in business. He knows a great deal about business dress, but he is simply wrong on some things. I wouldn't characterize him as an expert on business dress, and you haven't established any thing to suggest that your father is one either.</p>
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Care to share your qualifications on male sartorial elegance? Or are you just trying to pick a fight again?
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<p>No, I actually thought of this thread because I asked two Savile Row cutters about the undershirt issue several weeks ago.</p>
<p>I know it's just a little detail, but little details can make or break the first impression for some people (like me), unfortunately. If it is very obvious you are not wearing an undershirt, ew. If it is very obvious you are wearing an undershirt, whatever, at least you're wearing one. If it is not obvious one way or the other, I don't care.</p>
<p>C2002.. purely based on your postings on these boards, I find it hard to imagine you having many friends. It baffles me at why you find so much pleasure or gratification in winning all these stupid arguments. </p>
<p>Saying stuff like Denzera's 'expert reports' had 'absolutely no value' because he didn't cite his sources, like this is some sort of UN hearing on WMDs. Lumping 'working class slobs' with 'decent people who are too lazy to look the part' together like they're fashion criminals. </p>
<p>Sorry. Despite my appreciation for your advice and knowledge, both of which are plenty, it's sometimes quite hard to stand you, and I hope that this isn't what everyone who comes out of Columbia ends up like. Ugh.</p>
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Yeah, my experts were...My father, who has spent a lifetime in business and occasionally yells at me to get my shoes polished.
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<p>OK everyone! This seals the deal. Denzera is absolutely right because...his dad told him so. Conversation over.</p>
<p>Just kidding, of course, Denzera. Excuse the sarcasm. I just found the quote itself hilarious. I'm sure your dad is a qualified business type who knows what he's talking about.</p>