"Drew's president is making us think"

Parent Cafe
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<p>Article on the outspoken critic of college rankings, Robert Weisbuch, former head of the Woodrow Wilson National Fellowship Foundation in Princeton, as he begins his third year as President of Drew University. </p>

<p>
[quote]
He has ... railed against ... other "demons" he sees in the admissions process; false worship of SAT scores and the anti-democratic "scam" of merit aid.</p>

<p>Under his watch, Drew became one of the first colleges to make SAT scores optional. Weisbuch argues that grade-point averages are better predictors of college success, despite rampant grade inflation in high schools, and that parents shouldn't waste thousands of dollars on the "academic steroids" of test prep courses.</p>

<p>"I don't want to worry about whether [my children] got 680 or 640 on the SAT," he says. "I want to worry about the shape of their lives." ...</p>

<p>"Some parents are obsessed with [college admissions], and a whole other class of parents are under-informed and see college as distant and frightening," he says. "We have to fix both those things, and it's up to us -- those who lead colleges and universities -- to contribute to the solution."...

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<a href="http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NSZmZ2JlbDdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5NzE5NDA1NyZ5cmlyeTdmNzE3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTQ=%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NSZmZ2JlbDdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5NzE5NDA1NyZ5cmlyeTdmNzE3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTQ=&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>he's a courageous man, and i hope his voice and his message grow louder with each year! and that other college presidents have the strength to join him!</p>

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<p>one more thing...as i re-read your quote, i see it didn't include his FANTASTIC assault upon the USNEWS ranking system! i have a copy of that in my waiting room!!!</p>

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<p>I do not bow down to the altar of the College Board but as an applied scientist, er engineer, I prefer more data rather than less when looking at an experiment. I may choose to disregard some data but until I see the experimental results I cannot make that determination.</p>

<p>I would be curious about a val/sal who scored poorly on a standardized test and likewise would be curious about a student mired in the third or fourth decile of the class with perfect scores.</p>

<p>I think what is unimportant are small variances in scores among similarly qualified candidates. This is what much of the SAT angst is all about when we see student taking expensive prep courses and signing up for multiple sittings in the hope of raising the score 30, 40, 50 points. If college admissions policies honestly decided and communicated that SAT scores above a certain minimum would not enter into their decisionmaking process, most students minds would be much more at ease. At HYP that minimum might be 1450 while at Drew it might be 1150.</p>

<p>I have a suspicion that a teenaged Einstein might have been on the short end of the admission stick had his college admission been based on heavy consideration of a total SAT score.</p>

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<p>My son attends Drew and is doing well, likes it very much. He did send his scores to Drew but I know they saw beyond the average numbers compared to his high marks in school, essay, graded papers and recs. They might accept more students than some colleges, but merit money isn't given out to just anyone in large numbers. I told them my son hated that an SAT number defined him, and having mild ADHD (not medicated although he could of been) made it difficult for him to finish a long tedious test. He had friends that spent literally thousands on test preps, tutors, etc. What is "real" about that? Why can't everyone just take the SAT/ACT once and that's it. If you have to practice and take it over and over, if your high school experience wasn't enough, what is fair about it? How does that define who you are?There is something wrong with tests that are so different than school work that it involves so much angst and time.</p>

<p>I am glad we didn't have the money, just enough for some books and home study, I might of felt pulled in that area too and we had enough stress!</p>

<p>Originaloog, I agree a lot of people would be left out in that regard. : )</p>

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<p>"If college admissions policies honestly decided and communicated that SAT scores above a certain minimum would not enter into their decision-making process, most students minds would be much more at ease. At HYP that minimum might be 1450 while at Drew it might be 1150." I think that statement pretty well sums up both the strengths and draw-backs of holistic admissions/SAT optional policy strategies. In all honesty, we would all like clear-cut, or at least clearer, admissions parameters to help guide us come up with realistic college lists. By realistic, I do want to include the full range of choices open to students from "super-reach- pick-it-out-of -a-hat-lottery, to high reach, reasonable match, and likelies. For all their imperfections, I have to agree that SAT, ACT and SAT II scores do add much to the whole picture to help both parents, students, and besieged ad officers triage applicants. Cut-off scores might bring ease of mind , and maybe even a dose of reality, to a few but does not mesh with the concept of holistic admissions. This does hit on a thorny issue and is most likely why there are so many different types of "SAT optional" policies out there - some colleges require interviews for all students who opt out, others require written, graded school work in lieu of scores etc.</p>

<p>A recent article in the NY Times Select section addressed some of the issues related to "Strategy Testing" and standardized testing and posed the question "If a college allows you to omit your SAT or ACT score, should you?"</p>

<p><a href="http://www.pitzer.edu/news_center/in_the_news/06-07-academic_year/2007_07-30_sat_nytimes.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.pitzer.edu/news_center/in_the_news/06-07-academic_year/2007_07-30_sat_nytimes.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>On this score, Hamilton College has a truly interesting way of going about SAT optional policy. Basically, test scores are required but applicants can mix or match which standardized testing they see fit in order to best serve their academic profile. So, students can submit:</p>

<pre><code>* The SAT Reasoning Test; OR
* The American College Testing assessment test (ACT); OR
* Three exams of your choice, which must include a quantitative test, a verbal or writing test, and a third test of student's choice. The following tests satisfy Hamilton's quantitative and verbal/writing requirements:
</code></pre>

<p>Acceptable Quantitative Tests: SAT Math; SAT Subject Tests in Math, Chemistry, or Physics; AP Computer Science, Chemistry, Economics, Math, or Physics; IB Chemistry, Computing Studies, Economics, Math, Physics, or Physical and Chemical Systems</p>

<p>Acceptable Verbal/Writing Tests: SAT Critical Reading; SAT Writing; ACT Writing; AP English Language and Composition; IB Language (A1, A2, or B English); TOEFL Exam (for International students ONLY)</p>

<p><a href="http://my.hamilton.edu/admission/ApplicationProcess/requirements.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://my.hamilton.edu/admission/ApplicationProcess/requirements.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>I think that we need to recognize that SAT scores play different roles at different types of schools. At the HYPS level, where they have a huge number of applicants that near-perfect on paper, slightly lower SAT scores are simply one of a set of minor flaws that can be used to whittle down the applicant pool. At the other extreme, a score (say) in the 400s, absent explanation, says something important about the applicants level of preparation.</p>

<p>The Drews of the world fall somewhere in between. While I take at least some of Weisbuch's points, I must say that I find the near-hysterical tone of some of his criticisms to be off-putting.</p>

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<p>I agree the very top schools can use the tests differently than others. I think a cut-off score might work also, but also hurt someone who is within 50 points of that.
I wonder listening to some many students talk over the years, if everyone just did take it once, what their scores would be? I say that because my daughter knows kids that take it many, many times, starting in 8th, 9th grade at private schools. Sometimes they will say, "oh you got my first score, or you got my last years score in the Fall". If you need to take classes to learn how to take it, read strategy guides and get tutors, did you REALLY earn the place in line over the other student who didn't because you could have those resources? And why if you are well educated is the test so foreign to so many? What is it testing and why does it have to be so long??</p>

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<p>


</p>

<p>Amen. Back in the day, UCLA published a grid for their law school -- if you had this GPA and this LSAT you could read off your chances in a box on the grid. No time wasting on zero-chance applications and no squishy "holistic admissions." I loved it when I was planning my post-grad professional education.</p>

<p>(Of course, when I received my LSAT scores and saw that I had about 95% chance of getting into UCLA law, that was the moment I knew I didn't want to be a lawyer. It's a shame that clarity sometimes takes so long and costs so much.)</p>

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<p>What is there to stop Drew from implementing Weisbuch's views? Nothing! When it comes to admission, the school can do as it pleases ... admitting the students it finds will better contribute to the school. </p>

<p>In turn, is there anything that precludes parents and students to check the statistics of Drew and see how it compares with similar, better, or lesser selective schools? Nope.</p>

<p>Reading Weisbuch's statements makes it pretty clear that he likes the second part a lot less than the first one. Isn't it interesting that he can advocate for parents to be BETTER informed, yet finds no problem in attacking the magazine that offers the most comparative information. </p>

<p>As far as his statement, "When Drew University rose in this year's rankings by U.S. News & World Report, the school's president says his first question was, "What did we do wrong?" allow me to add that in our neck of the woods we'd say that that comment is a big pile of horse manure! </p>

<p>The esteemed president might want to read a couple of Aesop's Fables, starting with this one:
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Why is it that most of the loudest voices seem to come from second and third tier privates who have to fight every year to fill their classes with decent students ie 1150 SAT at Drew. I'm sure it's a good little school but not too many people are picking it over Colgate either. With or without US News.</p>

<p>Just look at their pathetic yield. 16.6%</p>

<p>Admission 4,532 applied, 2,906 admitted, 481 enrolled, 3.39 average high school GPA
Average high school GPA 3.39
Test scores SAT verbal scores over 500 86%, SAT math scores over 500 84%, ACT scores over 18 100%, SAT verbal scores over 600 48%, SAT math scores over 600 43%, ACT scores over 24 79%, SAT verbal scores over 700 12%, SAT math scores over 700 6%, ACT scores over 30 12%</p>

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<p>Gaby3, if you were referring to my post re establishing a SAT cutoff score you misunderstood me. I do not think that there should be a score cutoff at all. I am just saying that if you score above a minimum level, say 1450 at HYP(and that is just arbitrary number I pulled out of a hat) admissions decisions will be based on the remainder of the application only and you will be competing on an even playing field with higher scorers. In fact, none of the readers would know the actual SAT score, just the fact that the applicant exceeded the min.</p>

<p>Students scoring lower would also still be considered for admission, however their SAT score would be a factor in the decision making process. Perhaps a math genius with an 800 M score would be competetive with excellent applicants but how low a verbal would be considered too low, a process which adcoms now utilize.</p>

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<p>Originaloog,</p>

<p>I don't doubt that there are adcoms that act exactly as you describe but it is very wrong headed. Grouping students by arbitrary cutoffs on standardized exams actually gives enormous weight to small differences on test scores. For example if, as in your example, the top cut off is 1450 and the next cut off is 1300, a student with a 1440 is treated like a student with a 1300 and a student with a 1450 is treated like a student with a 1600. There is certainly no difference between a student with a 1440 and one with 1450 but there is a huge difference between students that score 1300 and those that score 1600. The only fair way to avoid this problem is to keep the full information as part of the decision-making process anything else makes small differences way too important.</p>

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<p>I prefer what some schools do - they publish acceptances by SAT range, such as xx% accepted with scores 1550-1600, and then bracket down by ~50 point increments.</p>

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<p>Originaloog, I see what you mean now. That makes sense.
I don't agree with everything that the Drew president said, but I know that the scores aren't everything. The 2 students I know at Drew scored over 1300, one 1400 with an almost free ride. He went on to NYU and has a lot of nice memories. (It is a very small school though, not for everyone)
I still don't understand why the criteria has to be this certain test...why do so many students suffer for those points? Why do the richer students get so much help and someone that made 550 be looked at with disdain by some when with help, maybe he/she would of gotten 600 or more. Xiggi's method was copy/pasted many, many times. This doesn't seem to be a test of skills but "how to take it".</p>

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<p>Drew passed Princeton this year to become New Jersey's most expensive 4 yr college.</p>

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[quote]
NEWARK, N.J. - Princeton University's tuition is no longer New Jersey's priciest, after the prestigious Ivy League school was the only four-year college in the state to avoid raising tuition.</p>

<p>Princeton kept annual tuition at $33,000 for the 2007-08 school year.</p>

<p>The amount is less than tuition at two other private schools in New Jersey: Drew University and the Stevens Institute of Technology, according to a survey of tuition rates in The Sunday Star-Ledger of Newark.</p>

<p>The $34,230 charged at Drew University for the upcoming year is up 5.3 percent from the year before, and the $33,300 charged at the Stevens Institute of Technology is up 4.9 percent.

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<p>Greetings!</p>

<p>Drew's president does make people think...and he often ticks people off! My sense from hearing him speak, reading his Chronicle articles, etc is that he is bright, quick-witted, intense, and irreverent. But I suspect that these qualities sometimes translate into not fully thinking through what he says/does.</p>

<p>My D started at Drew this fall. As a person in higher ed myself, I've really appreciated much of what Weisbuch has to say and a lot (though not all) that he is trying to do. As I've written before, he brings a serious academic sensibility to the position. But sometimes it seems that he forgets (or simply overlooks?) the culture and history of his small, intimate, liberal artsy institution. (His last purely academic gig was at Michigan, a top ranked research institution totally different from Drew.)</p>

<p>All that said, I agree with his critique re: two of the "three demons" of higher ed. SAT's? We (colleges, parents, students) have put way too much emphasis on them in recent years. Beyond the obvious fairness issues associated with the ability of well-to-do students to "prep" for them, far too many students are taking them 3 or more times to get higher scores. That is patently ridiculous.</p>

<p>The USNWR rankings? I/We have talked about this issue on other threads. I personally think potential students (and their parents) need as much info as possible. But I firmly believe that there are many problems with the rankings. On the other hand, I'm with Xiggi: Weisbuch's comment re: Drew's rising in the ranks this year ("What did we do wrong?" ) seems disingenuous at best. These kind of statements (and some recent decisions on campus) get him into trouble.</p>

<p>The "scam" of merit aid? I totally take issue with Weisbuch on this one. Again, I think he occasionally loses perspective and forgets that he's no longer at Michigan. I suspect his Admissions people tear their hair out every time he says this! Many (if not most) of the top LAC's have already abandoned merit aid for the reasons that he discusses. They can pretty much count on getting the class they want every year regardless. (Rightly or wrongly, many middle-income people would go into debt to have their kid go to Amherst or Williams.) But a school like Drew can't afford to do that. Indeed, if it weren't for the generous merit aid my D got at Drew, she would be going somewhere else. (For what it's worth, she got into three more prestigious schools.) I think colleges like Drew SHOULD use merit aid to try to attract top students, minority students, students with certain talents, students from under-represented geographic areas, etc. That's how they can put together an interesting, vibrant community. (Note: I've actively plugged Drew for its generous merit aid program on other CC threads.)</p>

<p>So, yes, Drew's president makes us think...but I hope he will become a bit more circumspect in the future.</p>

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<p>It isn't even close to being true that "Under his watch, Drew became one of the first colleges to make SAT scores optional."</p>

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<p>Cadbury, I agree with you 100% but I think what the president meant was limiting merit aid for wealthy students. At least that is what was said in a recent mailing I received. He said too many wealthy students get aid and others don't. Drew, for its size, had many students that came from wealthy families, but the last few years, has been trying to have a more diverse group. My son also couldn't be at Drew without the merit money. (Really any college he would need some)We aren't wealthy by far, but my son mentioned that some upper class students that were wealthy, got very nice packages because of high SAT scores. They do have grants also and maybe he wants to divert more into them.
It scared me when I first read that last year, about the merit aid,but I hadn't realized he meant there were many that could attend without it. I think middle class families like myself would be hurt if he did away with it altogether (and he didn't say this) because grant money wouldn't be enough.
But what do you do, have a cut off for merit money? Time will tell.</p>

<p>Mini, that's true, Drew started SAT optional the same year other colleges were also trying it out, Holy Cross, Providence, etc. I think before that there were only a handful. Some weren't really SAT optional, Connecticut College for instance still needed SAT ll's or ACT when my son applied.</p>

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<p>FairTest listed more than 400 colleges that either didn't require SATs/ACTs or had made them optional more than three years ago, some of them as long as 25 years ago.</p>