I discovered this forum last year and it’s been a great resource as we put our first through college. He is a Junior and we are turning to senior year scheduling in the next few weeks so I’m curious to get some thoughts from others here.
First, background on him:
STEM-oriented kid who is currently considering undergrad B-schools and finance but loves math and sciences so he remains somewhat open.
Athlete speaking with a variety of D3 schools (NESCACs, SCIAC, UAA schools)
Not a big fan of English/History classes but has gotten A’s through honors history and English through high school
Overall GPA is 3.95 UW/4.5 weighted (increased every year, junior year a 4.75 weighted). SAT is 1540 (800 math, 740 verbal). Favorite classes junior year are AP Calc BC and AP Physics I (average around 96 or 97 in both).
Schools he is currently thinking about range from engineering/math schools like MIT/Caltech to strong B-schools like Mich, Georgetown, UVA, NYU, WashU, UT-Austin to strong econ programs like Duke, etc.
Soph year schedule:
5 honors classes (english, history, spanish, intro to BC Calc, Chem)
1 AP class (Comp Sci P)
Junior year schedule:
AP Econ (Micro and Macro)
AP Calc BC
AP Physics I
AP Stats
English Honors
History Honors (taught as a “humanities bundle”)
Spanish 4 Honors
Looking at senior year schedule, schedule is shaping up like:
Multivariable Calc (school credits this class as an AP but no AP test)
AP Physics C Mechanical
AP Bio or AP Chem (likely chem)
English 4 Honors
Business/finance elective (half year course) coupled with a science elective (also half year)
AP Spanish
One more class - Choosing from a business elective, AP Psych, AP Comp Sci A (he took AP Comp Sci P soph year) and AP US Gov.
Now the questions (and my apologies for the long wind-up but I figure context is important) …
His APs are obviously STEM heavy but he has focused on APs in the subjects he enjoys more given the time commitment (then add varsity/club sports and ECs). He is allergic to any mention of AP Lit or AP History. That said, he’s open to AP Psych or AP US Gov. Do you think adding a social science is important to round out his courses more as opposed to taking another business elective or perhaps Comp Sci A to further explore comp sci?
Counselor has told to take AP Spanish though he really does not want to take another year of language, as schools will look favorably on it and it could get him out of a foreign language requirement in college if he performs well on the AP test. Agree he should just suck it up and take AP Spanish?
When it comes to undergrad business schools (Stern, Ross, McCombs, etc.) do they tend to focus on rigor of humanities courses and is he hurting himself being too STEM heavy with APs?
He is planning to double AP sciences b/c one engineering school sports coach told him Physics C and Chem are important. While he’s not sure he wants to go that route, does it make sense to take both just to keep the high level engineering schools on the table?
Finally, what is the reputation of AP Psych and AP US Gov? My son thinks of them as slightly easier humanities APs if he has to take a humanities class but I always assume colleges know this and discount accordingly (as opposed to, say, struggling through APUSH which he chose not to do).
1/ A core subject is more important than an elective
2/ Having completed Spanish 4, he satisfies every college. Every college will have a placement test for exemption of the FL requirement, and yes, he might score higher having taken AP Spanish. So, personal choice, with the caveat that a Spanish class in college will move much faster than a HS class.
3/ Business schools love STEM classes. Not an issue.
4/ personally, I would just pick one. But it’s a personal choice.
5/ Both are fine options. Yes, they are easier than APUSH, but they are still AP, and are more rigorous than most non-AP courses.
I would recommend AP gov or even an honors gov class if he isn’t interested in AP. Most competitive schools want to see 4 years of the core courses.
I would keep AP Spanish. As you noted, it could get him out of language requirements in college.
I don’t think he necessarily needs both AP mechanics and chem, but my engineering daughter found them both useful preparation for college, but she was firmly shooting for engineering.
Your other question about what top schools are looking for is more complicated. I’m sure you know that every school you listed is a reach, even for the most qualified applicants. IMO, the competition at those schools will have taken multiple AP courses in English and history. Even for engineering, many schools want to see evidence of strong verbal and communication skills, even more so for business schools.
I would recommend that your student starts searching for match and safety schools (which everyone should do). For example, he should be an auto admit to IU Kelley which has an excellent business school. Lehigh would be a match.
I think he should take a social science and his two AP choices are fine. I would pick whichever teacher/class has a better reputation at your school.
Our college counselor would have said the same as yours about taking AP Spanish for the most highly selective schools, but a lot of kids feel like your son does. Anecdotally, it sounds like a lot of kids still get into too choices without a 4th high school year of language. It might be a worthwhile risk if he is going to be totally miserable or not get a good grade.
If he does drop AP spanish, I would do both sciences so that he has 5 core classes on his transcript. If he keeps AP Spanish, taking both sciences probably isn’t as necessary. My kids aren’t STEM kids, so I am not the best judge. If he can take both and manage As in all, it would likely strengthen his application. If it’s going to be tough to balance and impact his grades in any classes because of the additional work, I would be cautious.
Thanks. I appreciate that and definitely know those are all in the reach category. We have a separate list of safety/target schools but trying to set the schedule to give him the best chance to get into one of those reach schools when the time comes. I’d hate for scheduling mistakes to cost him the slim chances he has at any… That said, we’ve come a long way from the days of taking it easy senior year to enjoy the good years of life and he knows he has to challenge himself (I definitely didn’t schedule like this in high school or college and attended a top 2 or 3 law school).
I agree that his list is VERY reach-heavy. He needs a more balanced list that includes schools where he has a higher probability of acceptance and are ones he would enjoy attending. He can’t just throw on a school because he will likely get in — he needs to also feel like he would be happy attending it, too. I tell my kids to learn to love your likely school.
Business is an incredibly competitive major, especially for male applicants, and even more so if they are majority students. His stats should keep him in the conversation at top schools, but with acceptance rates well under 10% for most schools on his list, his chances are unpredictable.
Thanks, and as I said above, I threw out the schools more in the high target/reach category for him for sure. We are scheduling with a view to what might give him better odds with reach schools, but also know they are all around 10% or lower acceptance rates and his full list will obviously be more well-rounded.
My D22 has a very similar profile — similar grades, B-school/math interest, D3 recruit.
That said, she only applied to a few reach schools and none of the ones on your list. Also, caveat — results aren’t back yet, so I can’t tell you how it worked out.
She took more APs than your son as a sophomore and junior, but always took the ones she liked or thought would be easier for her except for AP Lit and AP Lang (no tolerable alternatives offered). An AP is an AP and we didn’t try to read the minds of AOs and rank them. Are they really going to get in the weeds far enough to admit the kid who took AP Lang over the kid who took AP Psych? That could be because of the vagaries of when the high school offered the course and which one conflicted with physics, know what I mean?
I think it is more important to remember that college and scholarship applications require a lot of attention senior year and senioritis can set in. I’d go for the schedule that maintains rigor but is most painless for your student.
I didn’t want to get into the safety/reach/target discussion (that was my mistake only listing reach schools) but this comment has me curious. When we think of target schools vs. safety schools, I’ve been using the high school’s Naviance page to get a sense of how kids with similar SAT/GPA from my S’s high school have done over the past few years. So taking Lehigh, for example, great school but seems my son would be the highest GPA from his high school to ever apply (and the school gets roughly 30% of its applicants in). I put that in the safety category. Is that wrong? In discussing w/ my son last night, he really struggles with the idea that he puts in so much more time than many of his peers and he should be targeting Lehigh. Again, nothing wrong with the school. It’s a very good school. But it seems for kids with these types of numbers, targets are hard to circle because the schools that match their numbers are all highly rejective and so they are all reaches. Seems there are safe schools and reaches and maybe a few targets sprinkled in. But, for example, his numbers on Naviance seem to match up pretty well at his school with UVA and Georgetown and I think most consider those reaches for any kid.
Naviance is tricky because you can’t tell which students were hooked or what majors they applied to.
I personally think it’s better to use a school’s acceptance rate as a guide for creating the safety/match list.
Anything under 30% we put in the reach category. 20 -50% match. The two safeties on my D’s list were above 70% acceptance rates and one had rolling admission so she had a very early acceptance.
IMO, you don’t want to overestimate chances for the safeties and matches. And safeties should be a sure thing.
I just read a blog post from GT’s admission guy (posted on the UMich thread) that he considers any school with 33% acceptance or lower to be highly selective/reach.
That makes sense to me. We’ll ultimately work with the college counsel to get a list of safety/target/reach schools together (my son is still in the exploration phase) that makes sense and ensure he has a list of schools that are all attractive to him. Of course the biggest question he has since he’s interested in business schools is how their respective acceptance rates compare to the university as a whole. I believe Georgetown publishes their rates and McDonough seems in line with the university as a whole. But my understanding is Michigan (Ross), NYU (Stern), Texas (McCombs) are all a different story. It would be good to see those acceptance/rejection rates.
Just chiming in to say he really needs 4 years of history. The common data sets for schools will give their lists of required/suggested - might be worth looking at for his reach schools.
Thanks. I had looked at CDS for foreign language but didnt even think to review for history. Do you group Psych and US Gov in the “history” category or are you talking about hard history classes rather than social sciences generally? From a social science standpoint, I imagine honors US history and econ doubled up this year…
For our S, he opted not to take APUSH or AP Lang but instead our HS offered the last few years an honors bundle of English Humanities/History Humanities where they paired the two and the kids could read literature and study art, music, etc from the period of time they studied. My son took it b/c he thought it was more interesting than taking APUSH taught to a standardized test requirements.
Perhaps the saddest thing going into scheduling my S’s senior year is we started high school looking at this great big course catalog and encouring him to explore all areas of interest and focusing on what he liked rather than what colleges liked. Then we fell into the AP trap and so, for example, he dropped a Biotech elective this year he really wanted to explore to add a 4th AP (stats). You can imagine the frustration when the kids do that, get to senior year and hear “you should really focus on lower schools because all those schools you’ve been targeting don’t accept many like you…” I guess that explains why they are all in therapy, but I digress…
What’s a “lower school?” A lower ranked school? Which ranking? For what major? Rankings are a game that can be manipulated by the colleges.
IMO, there are many many excellent schools in the US that will be happy to have your son, where he will get an great eduction and be prepared for whatever comes next.
FWIW, I think exploring areas of interest and focusing on what he likes is a great approach in HS and probably helped him figure out what he liked and what he didn’t.
Sounds like your school has a different approach with the “bundles”. That will be in their school report that will accompany your child’s transcript. I’d have a sit down with the guidance office and see if they consider your son having had the 4 years of history. Sounds to me like he does.
Fair comments. I meant “lower” by his own personal sense of what is a more “prestigious” school or more fitting to the hard work he put in and his academic level. He’s not only a hard-working kid but also the kid his friends view as the “smart friend” so he has in mind he has to go to a school that matches that expectation of himself. It’s the same trap many high achieving kids fall in and it’s hard to talk him off that. It’s a process, for sure. To give an example, my wife and I are UW-Madison grads. My UW degree got me to an Ivy law school and top law firm so I did just fine. For my son, though, when I mention UW he replies with “I feel like I didn’t need to put in all this work and take all these APs to go to Wisconsin.” Now, I know you don’t need to overpay for a highly rejective college to achieve your goals in life and I know UW was the perfect school for me. I’m simply stating what is in the mind of a high-achieving 16 year old.
As for the bundled offering, we are definitely going to ensure the guidance counselor mentions how he pursued that offering as it was of more interest, still an honors course, and passed on the more traditional high level history or english.