<p>DS3 is deciding between Kelley(EFC $30K) and Duke (EFC $110K). He was able to garner the 2300 SAT, 4.0 GPA, NMS, and National AP Scholar with an average of 1-2 hours of study everyday at home during the first three years in the high school. He certainly enjoys his high school years. I think that he will do well at Kelley with the hands-on type of curriculum. However, the problem is that there is no guarantee that he can get into the Kelley Investment Banking Workshop. If not, his chance of getting into IB is greatly reduced. For him to go to Duke, we will need to pay approximately $80K more total (He will be responsible for $30K). We think that it may be worthwhile for him to be with many top students at Duke especially that Duke's Econ curriculum is amazing. However, we won't be able to support him if he wants to go to Law School afterwards. In addition, I heard that a Duke student might need a GPA >3.7 to have a good chance for IB. That is definitely not easy and I need to assess my investment. He probably will be happy at either school. Any advice and insight are very much appreciated.</p>
<p>no those rankings are not the least bit reliable. this shouldn’t even be a question. go to duke for ib. an education at duke is easily worth 80k more than an education at IU</p>
<p>There is no reason to pay an extra $80k at duke. There are a lot more people from Indiana than duke at my bank, and that is pretty representative across the board.</p>
<p>Kelley’s a great school for finance and investment banking, regardless of whether or not your son makes it into the workshop.</p>
<p>The school’s heavily recruited by Chicago and NYC offices and students at the school have the benefit of having a large alumni network to take advantage of. Indiana’s a huge state school, after all, and a lot of its students are involved in the business school. Not only that, but Kelley students can also take advantage of the Big 10 network as a whole.</p>
<p>There really shouldn’t be too many people gunning for investment banking at a school like IU, anyway. If your son is able to go in on his first day with investment banking on his mind, then he will truly be put into a position to stand out and distinguish himself.</p>
<p>Go on Wall Street Oasis and search “Kelley” or “IU” on the forums. You’ll find tons of posts by current bankers and consultants talking about how heavily recruited the school is. The school churns out tons of kids into the industry, even though the school as a whole is relatively low-ranked.</p>
<p>The extra 80k isn’t worth it. Maybe if Duke was ~60-70k, then yeah.</p>
<p>Thanks for the comments and insight. I believe that Kelley IB Workshop has been very successful in placing 30-40 students into IB jobs every year. The problem is that my son may not be able to get in. I heard that students with a GPA of 3.9 was passed. The level of difficulty has been increasing as more students become aware of the opportunity. As a result, going to graduate school (MBA or Law) has been part of the risk mitigation. </p>
<p>The difference of $80 K is manageable for now. But, he will be on his own after that. He is trying to determine the probably of success in each case. We have learned that IB jobs are very demanding. Some people could leave after a few years. We are wondering about the probability of IB professionals going back to school for MBA or Law degree. It seems to me that a lawer with IB experience would be in high demand. Is there truth to that? </p>
<p>Just my two cents, if he can get into Duke, he should have enough confidence in his academic capabilities and abilities to stand out as an applicant for the investment banking workshop. Easily. What I would recommend is looking at the past applications that have come from the workshop. Let him see for himself just what it takes and what is doable. There are plenty of opportunities to distinguish yourself at IU, and many people have done it, your son could also probably do it. </p>
<p>That being said, Duke obviously has better recruiting, and it might be slightly easier to break onto Wall Street. But it seems IU has more, larger, student organizations that people can become involved in and just work their way up (See: Dance Marathon).</p>
<p>Also, both schools are quite different, it shouldn’t be too difficult to find a preference fit-wise between the two.</p>
<p>Ace, I actually think the quality of students getting into IBW has gone down a little, based strictly on the 2013/14 posted resumes on the IBW website compared to classes a couple of years ago and before and contemporary articles about the best students no longer going into investment banking the last couple of years. Also, their summer internships and EC’s don’t seem as impressive in the past, especially for the IM students. Your son’s stats are outstanding for in-state students; I think in-staters have a slightly better chance rather than OSS these days to be accepted to IBW, as the OSS have dominated the numbers lately and it is politically better for IU to have as many in-state students as possible in business honors and IBW. Seems like kids with your son’s numbers would have an excellent chance for IBW, as long as they come across during recruitment as somebody that has the potential to actually be placed in IB. </p>
<p>Regarding cost, seems like your son has the potential to get a free education at IU. 2300 SAT is probably equal to most Wells Scholars and certainly way, way competitive for Kelley Scholars, of which nine Indiana kids get a full ride to Kelley each year. There are also the two huge Lilly scholarships per county and many Kelley direct admit scholarships. I can’t imagine a 4.0 gpa/2300 SAT getting only the 9K automatic scholarship at IUB/Kelley.</p>
<p>darthvader, 90,000 ugrads at IU! More like 32,000. Also, at the risk of being ancedotal, here is a link to 27 four-year Kelley undergrads from class of 2012 that got into investment banking. These were found with one google search, which probably understates the number who became investment bankers from Kelley in 2012 alone. Way more 2012 grads got summer IB internships in New York, and who knows how up-to-date there linkedin entries are.</p>
<p>I would argue there are more students trying to get into banking from Duke than IU. I cannot speak to Duke’s population, but I can say each year there are 100-150 students who apply to the Workshop. 30 are accepted to the Workshop, and about 30 are accepted to the Seminar.</p>
<p>I also don’t know why you shouldn’t take my evidence at face value. Do you work in the industry? Are you a current analyst? Do you have friends at all these banks? If so, please provide additional details as opposed to disagreeing with what I said and leaving it at that.</p>
<p>That being said, Duke is a fantastic school. Indiana was the best choice I have made to date. $80,000 is a lot of money after taxes (relatively). At the end of the day, qualified candidates from any school outperform their peers and place well. Those are the the facts as I see them.</p>
<p>“Regarding cost, seems like your son has the potential to get a free education at IU. 2300 SAT is probably equal to most Wells Scholars and certainly way, way competitive for Kelley Scholars, of which nine Indiana kids get a full ride to Kelley each year. There are also the two huge Lilly scholarships per county and many Kelley direct admit scholarships. I can’t imagine a 4.0 gpa/2300 SAT getting only the 9K automatic scholarship at IUB/Kelley.”
Bthompson:
My son has stellar stats, and is quite involved in extracurriculars, leadership positions, athletics, etc. He has shown interest in some finance/econ activities, and he is quite knowledgeable of those concepts. However, he lacks the underlying spark that separates the truly remarkable students from the high caliber ones. I’m referring to more intangible traits, such as tremendous passion and drive, the ability to work diligently for hours on end. He prefers to enjoy life on the weekends with his friends, to go out a lot. He has averaged probably 30-45 min. of studying a night during his high school years. His preferred activities include laying around reading online magazine articles, watching TV programs (often History Channel or CNBC News, which isn’t too bad I suppose), or working out. My point is that despite his good metrics, he is hardly a superstar. Thus, it is not a surprise that he was not chosen for the Wells scholarship, the Kelley scholarship, or the Lilly…all of which he interviewed for. Which also explains my fear that he may not get into the workshop, without which the path to IBanking would be significantly harder. It is already clearly apparent that neither excellent stats nor active school involvement can guarantee the receipt of a prestigious scholarship or admission into a selective program.</p>
<p>Fortunately, he has already begun to have a slight change of heart, and has been becoming more proactive by posting and seeking advice on Wall Street Oasis. I only hope this carries over into college.</p>
<p>Minor correction, he did receive an extra 4k Metz scholarship and also the National Merit Scholarship on top of the automatic scholarship. I don’t want to come across as ungrateful or bitter; we are actually quite thankful for the money he has received.</p>
<p>With 14k annually in scholarships for four years, I doubt IU cost 30k out of pocket for you and your son. 86K (56K scholarships + 30K estimate) seems way too high for IU instate.</p>
<p>Ace, another thing I notice compared to a couple of years ago, is that nobody this year (and maybe last year, too) did the London School of Economics six credits of econ/finance courses the summer after sophomore year. It seems like the LSE route was taken by many students who did not have the connections to get a good finance internship after sophomore summer. Seems like everybody had either a good finance internship or LSE in sophomore summer to get into the the IB half of IBW. Lot of them who did not have connections did finance internships for companies in Chicago in the past in sophomore summer. The last couple of years, however, you see lots of Big Four accounting firm sophomore summer internships or internships with companies nobody has ever hear of. Of course, early internships are not everything, and intangibles are huge, as you say. But intangibles will also be a big factor at Duke. But I think the overall pool of IBW applicants may be slightly lower than in the past.</p>
<p>Another positive about Kelley IB hopefuls is the Investment Banding Seminar, which is for seniors only. Relatively late bloomers, I am guessing, may make up a percentage of these students. IB recruiting is huge at Kelley, with some students in neither IBW or IBS getting interviewed for IB summer internships, something most kids at other schools have no chance of ever doing. Also, I think it was JP Morgan that, a couple of years ago, solicited applications from Hutton Honors students for IB summer internships if they had a 3.8+ gpa. These students were not even in the business school. So IU/Kelley gives more opportunities for investment banking summer internships/full-time hires than just IBW.</p>
<p>Here are some IBS (as opposed to the Investment Banking Workshop) students who got IB jobs per Linkedin in 2012 class:</p>
<p>IU’s estimated COA is $23,490 for IS student even though I think it would be probably around $21-22K a year. </p>
<p>The IBS students are pretty impressive too. The total number of Kelley students breaking into IB field is probably around 40-45 a year. My colleague’s D went to LSE a few years ago and that was pretty expensive. Ultimately, the success depends upon his determination. </p>
<p>Thank you for all the valuable info. I will come back from time to time to seek advice.</p>
<p>I think its creepy to post LinkedIn profiles but Kelley’s recruiting doesn’t even come close to Duke’s and more importantly the quality of education/strength of classmates is far apart.</p>
<p>Every single bulge bracket bank besides Credit Suisse and every MC besides Booz & Company actively recruit Duke undergraduates.</p>
<p>Start scrolling from September 2012 and browse through all the finance/consulting firms that recruit directly on campus all the way through Full-Time recruiting and into Internship Season ending in March 2013. </p>
<p>It’s your future, why settle for anything less than the best?</p>
<p>These firms recruited for investment banking positions at Kelley in 2012-2013 per the career services office’s opportunities listings.</p>
<p>BAML
BMO Capital Markets
Brown Gibbons Lang & Co.
Cain Brothers & Co.
Citi Global Corporate & Investment Bank
Credit Suisse USA
Deutsche Bank Securties
Duff & Phelps
Financial Technology Partners
Houlihan Lokey
HSBC Securities
JP Morgan Chase
Keefe, Bruyette & Woods
Lazard Middle Market LLC
Lincoln International
Livingstone Partners
Macquarie Capital
Moelis & Company
Perella Weinberg
PNC Financial Services Group
Robert W. Baird
Sagent Advisors
Sandler O’Neill & Partners
Stout Risius Ross
SunTrust Robinson Humphrey
William Blair & Co.</p>
<p>In addition to what bthomp posted, when viewing the offers a lot of the Investment Banking Workshop kids got, there are always a few Morgan Stanely, Merrill Lynch, and at least 1-2 that go to Goldman Sachs.</p>
<p>I left off the list some firms that I didn’t see in the three or four weekly job lists from the beginning of each semester, but Linkedin and the ibw website also show 2013 summer internships or incoming full-time for Goldman, Barclays, Morgan Stanley, Jefferies Group, and Greenhill.</p>