<p>I am sure there are a lot of Duke grads in Iraq.</p>
<p>
I.e., basketball. :)</p>
<p>Moviebuff,</p>
<p>"thethoughtprocess, you are beginning to remind me of posterX...Amazing how one can rationalize numbers."</p>
<p>Hmmm...I guess thats good right? Because numbers are better than anecdotal evidence (or fictional, apparently). I hope I've clearly demonstrated to you that Duke is just as strong/stronger than all non-HYP Ivies after posting several links illustrating just that.</p>
<p>Also, Duke's yield is around 45%. It loses about 85-90% of cross-admits with Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Princeton and MIT. It wins about 45-55% with Penn, Dartmouth, Columbia, and Brown year to year. It wins 75% to 90% against Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown, and JHU. Having a 45% yield isn't that out of the place given these facts.</p>
<p>Even though Duke has a lower yield than Penn or Columbia, the accepted students that actually choose to attend are statistically as strong (or stronger) and place the same post-graduation than any non-HYP Ivy. So maybe Duke admits stronger students in general who choose HYPSM over it more often than non-HYP Ivies, and that it doesn't accept as many kids ED. Who knows. </p>
<p>Either way, Duke is just as good as non-HYP Ivies in pretty much every way important (resources, student strength, placement) and better in sports and weather.</p>
<p>And, as a final note, on Wall Street, ever important in finance, Duke= Columbia, Penn (non-Wharton), Brown, Dartmouth, Williams.</p>
<p>
</p>
<ul>
<li>I.e., basketball :)</li>
</ul>
<p>** if you prefer warmer weather.</p>
<p>(just helping you stick to the facts ;) )</p>
<p>Fair enough. Duke actually has one good sports team, basketball, though I think laX is getting up there. And also true that warmer weather isn't so good in August...</p>
<p>Basketball, obviously and for both men and women, is a national signature sport for Duke, but let's not forget the eleven other sports where Duke distinguished itself last year on the national level with at least a Top 20 finish nationally: </p>
<ol>
<li> Golf (women were national champs and men did well also)</li>
<li> Lacrosse (men were 2nd and women were 3rd)</li>
<li> Tennis (both men and women were in Top 20 nationally)</li>
<li> Womens XC (Top 20)</li>
<li> Field Hockey (Top 20)</li>
<li> Soccer (Men were 5th and Women were Top 20) </li>
<li> Volleyball (Top 20)<br></li>
</ol>
<p>Duke teams also compete in one of the most competitive athletic conferences in the country and face schools like Florida State, U Miami, Boston College, U Virginia, U Maryland, Georgia Tech, Clemson, Wake Forest, NC State, Virginia Tech and, of course, U North Carolina. </p>
<p>So, lots of national level athletic talent at Duke to go along with great academics and great social scene…and nice mild weather…and perhaps the best rivalry in college sports with U North Carolina. </p>
<p>By contrast, for all of the five non-HYP Ivies, their athletic accomplishments on the national level were:
1. Brown-Women's Rowing was 1st
2. Dartmouth-Women's Ice Hockey was in Top 10
3. U Penn-Women's Lacrosse was Top 4
4. Cornell-Men's Lacrosse was Top 4</p>
<p>Anything else?? Please help me with the other sports because that can't be all there is for the five non-HYP Ivies which have a combined enrollment of nearly 40,000 students vs only 6500 at Duke.</p>
<p>Gotta be the first time I have heard someone claim that anecdotal evidence ranks higher than numbers. Duke is amazing and is as good as any non-HYP ivy. Show some evidence proving otherwise (and no, anecdotal evidence doesn't count).</p>
<p>And regarding finance> I could argue Brown and Williams would be a slight stepdown from Duke (particularly in areas like S&T, even in IBD).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sponsoring conference championships in 33 men's and women's sports, and averaging more than 35 varsity teams at each school, the Ivy League provides intercollegiate athletic opportunities for more men and women than any other conference in the country. All eight Ivy schools are among the "top 20" of NCAA Division I schools in number of sports offered for both men and women.</p>
<p>The most diverse intercollegiate competition in the country for both men and women is also among the best. In recent years, the Ivy League has been synonymous with national excellence in men's and women's soccer, lacrosse, rowing, fencing and squash, and individual Ivy athletes have regularly excelled as well in football, track and field, wrestling and swimming. Ivy teams have enjoyed significant success in the opening rounds of the NCAA Division I basketball championships.</p>
<p>This successful competition in Division I national athletics is achieved by approaching athletics as a key part of the student's regular undergraduate experience: with rigorous academic standards, the nation's highest four-year graduation rates (the same as those for non-athletes), and without athletics scholarships. Ivy athletic programs receive multi-million-dollar institutional support as part of each institution’s overall academic programs, independent of win-loss or competitive records and together with extensive programs of intramural and recreational athletics.</p>
<p>Since 2000 alone, the Ivy League has...</p>
<p>• Produced 30 individual and 13 team NCAA national champions. The League has also had national champions in a number of non-NCAA sports like squash and men’s rowing. All eight Ivy League schools have had at least one NCAA champion -- team or individual -- in the last two years.</p>
<p>• Posted the top conference Academic Progress Rate in 20 of 27 Ivy League championship sports that are considered broad-based (at least 10 conferences registering a conference APR mark) as released by the NCAA in May 2007.</p>
<p>• Had more than 100 All-Americans each year.</p>
<p>• Averaged more than a dozen Academic All-Americans (including an all-time high of 18 in 2006-07).</p>
<p>• Had 162 competitors at the four Olympic Games (2000, 2002, 2004, 2006). Those 162 have collected 53 medals, including 18 gold.</p>
<p>• Sent hundreds of athletes into the professional ranks, including dozens of NFL players including Sean Morey and Isaiah Kacyvenski, who met at midfield as team captains at Super Bowl XL.</p>
<p>• Hosted the first ESPN College GameDay football show to draw more than 1.5 million households.</p>
<p>• Became the first conference to ‘sweep’ the four major NCAA Awards in the same year (2006). Columbia’s Robert Kraft claiming the Roosevelt Award; Princeton’s John Doar the Inspirational Award; Yale’s Susan Wellington the Silver Anniversary; and Brown’s Nick Hartigan the Top VIII.</p>
<p>• Became the second conference with three of the six NCAA Silver Anniversary Award winners in the same year (2007) — Dartmouth's Gail Koziara Boudreaux, Brown's Steve Jordan and Yale's Patricia Melton.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I know this also includes HYP but, after all, it is one unified athletic league.</p>
<p>And really, hawkette, I've never claimed that the non-HYP Ivies are superior to Duke because, as a generalization, such a claim would be silly and unsupportable. But the same is true of a claim that Duke is generally superior (for "experience outside the classroom" as you put it) to those 5 schools. There are many quality-of-life features at each of those 5 schools (cultural attractions, city life and amenities, more dramatic seasonal changes which many prefer, clubs and activites, etc.) which Duke doesn't offer, but which attract tens of thousands of students, many--if not most--of whom probably could have gone to Duke if they'd wanted to.</p>
<p>Even Duke student thethoughtprocess--whose posts are reasonable, objective, and fact-based--doesn't claim that Duke is generally superior to the non-HYP Ivies. Perhaps you shouldn't, either.</p>
<p>thethoughtprocess, being reminded of posteX..is NOT a good thing. You have been around long enough and you should know that but then again....I get it now, what you do not know, is "anecdotal or fictional"....hmmmm.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, you have not clearly demonstrated anything, because you draw the wrong conclusions and used mixed data. You keep throwing around the same numbers that the institution is using while trying to give a more favorable impression.</p>
<p>You seem to be having a problem with the cross admits.The Revealed Preference Ranking study, which was essentially looking at cross admits and used hand collected data on high achieving students, used a very interesting methodology and empirical data. Guess what? Duke University ranked 19, which is way below Brown 7 and Dartmouth 10. The study looked at student preferences and the results are close to the percentages that I had disclosed before and far from the 45-55% that Duke likes to throw around when lumping the other ivies in the analysis.</p>
<p>As a matter of fact, from the most relevant schools, Duke only beats Northwestern, which is also what we see frequently happening as well.</p>
<p>MovieBuff, ...I feel that real numbers are better than fictional numbers, sorry if you disagree.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Unfortunately, you have not clearly demonstrated anything, because you draw the wrong conclusions and used mixed data.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What is "mixed" about SAT scores, WSJ feeder rankings, THES, US News, the National Merit Scholarship Competition, The Center for Measuring University Performance, etc. All of them rate Duke above or alongside the non-HYP Ivies.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You keep throwing around the same numbers that the institution is using while trying to give a more favorable impression.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I quoted the Duke Dean of Admissions, who regularly states Duke competes evenly with non-HYP Ivies. You quoted nobody, and instead just made a stat up. Solid. So you think Duke admissions is lying? Thats fair enough.</p>
<p>I guess the following are all lies as well: National Merit Scholarship competition, Collegeboard.com's SAT scores, Wall Street Journal feeder rankings, THES International Rankings, US News rankings, The Center for University Performance, IB placement, and so on. Please address these numbers. Do you honestly think Duke lags at all behind any non-HYP Ivy?</p>
<p>Duke = Dartmouth, Penn, Brown, Columbia and so on in terms of student strength, placement, reputation, and so on. On Wall Street and the rest of the country as well.</p>
<p>Also, of course I've read the RP study, its not real data, its hypothetical cross-admit data that the researchers admit could/should be better. The sample students have an SAT score of around 1300, 50% from private schools, and 90% White. Duke, Penn, Columbia, Brown, and Dartmouth all have about 70-80% of students from public schools, average SAT of around 1460, and are about 60% white. Also keep in mind regional bias - most top private/public schools are in the Northeast.</p>
<p>Anyways, so basically, MovieBuff is arguing that facts, data, rankings, and surveys should be ignored...</p>
<p>45 percenter,
I have tried to use language to communicate that, for many students who are interested in an environment with strong academics and strong social life and strong athletic life, then Duke is a terrific, and perhaps superior, choice. It is not an absolute statement as you portray above, but I am expressing my preference and perhaps informing others that there are great, or maybe even better, undergraduate college choices outside of the Ivy universe. </p>
<p>IMO, prestige drives many kids to think it’s “Ivy or bust” and that is unfortunate. Perhaps the non-HYP colleges might ultimately be the best choice for an individual student, but too often I read here of students that are laser-focused on this small group of schools with little to no consideration of other top schools in other parts of the country. My position is that top students would benefit greatly to consider a broader group of college possibilities because they might just find out that there are some pretty terrific alternatives out there.</p>
<p>MovieBuff,</p>
<p>Btw, if you could, please discuss the following data sets/rankings and explain why they are meaningless: National Merit Scholarship competition, Collegeboard.com's SAT scores, Wall Street Journal feeder rankings, THES International Rankings, US News rankings, The Center for University Performance, Rhodes/Fulbright/Truman/Marshall scholar winners, etc. </p>
<p>I would be interested in seeing a legitimate response rather than saying "well I have a friend who went to Brown over Duke". Also, assume that the Duke admissions department doesn't publicly lie. If you would like the links to various rankings to examine methodologies feel free to ask. You'll find in all Duke does as well as Ivies - in some better than 5, in others better than 2, but always in the middle of the pack. </p>
<p>Judging from your posts and how vigorously you pretend Duke is not as good as Dartmouth/Brown, it seems to me you might be a ED applicant at HYP who didn't get in and are now at a second-choice Ivy. That is fine. All Ivies are excellent schools. Duke is an excellent school that is just as good and better in some areas (arguably better IB placement, warmer weather) and worse in some areas (too jocky?). But overall academically, Duke = non-HYP Ivies</p>
<p>Prestige:</p>
<p>Penn/Columbia/Dartmouth >= Dook.</p>
<p>TITCR.</p>
<p>Hmmm...</p>
<p>Duke = Penn/Columbia/Dartmouth in student strength, placement, resources, so on.</p>
<p>If Duke is really considered less prestigious than it actually is underrated. However, its not underrated since most rankings have it higher than 4-5 Ivies. </p>
<p>Also, on Wall Street, the epitome of prestige (ie firms recruit based on perceived prestige), Duke actually places more than most schools other than Harvard, Princeton, and Wharton (and is even with Dartmouth) - this is only for corporate finance at large firms btw, not other divisions which I know little about. </p>
<p>Thats how it is - no academic/placement advantage to attending a non-HYP ivy over Duke, despite having colder weather, less green (aside from Dartmouth), less partying (aside from Dartmouth/Penn), etc.</p>
<p>thethoughtprocess, I would say that your obsession with equating Duke to the ivies reflects a certain degree of insecurity or perhaps a growing inferiority complex. I do not see anyone here stating that Duke is not comparable or of a lesser quality. Unfortunately (it seems that for you it's important) Duke is just NOT one of the ivies. Some people feel that it is just overrated. The meteoric rise in the flawed US NEWs rankings ( from not even being ranked in 1983 ) reminds us of ....WahsU. It is all a reflection of the efforts of the institution to be more competitive. New buildings, increasing faculty salaries, research, all aimed at that purpose. NO problem wiht that. They have just learned to play the game well. Do not be uptight about it. Be happy!</p>
<p>You make the mistake of assuming way too much and clearly your thought process (or lack of it) ends up showing at the end. You have judged my posts wrong and your thinking is becoming cloudy. You have given me a very well needed laugh just now. I turned down Harvard and Dartmouth for Brown because i loved it there when i went. Duke, was my safety and I was pleased to give up my space for someone that really wanted to be there. I have been a part of TIP at Duke for years and I was tapped to go there back in 8th grade. I know a lot about Duke. I wont even want to speculate where you could have been rejected from...... ( an ivy??!! )</p>
<p>Again...hmmmm I was only trying to make a point about the cross admits. Just keep playing with your numbers so u can feel good about it.</p>
<p>And please, get your thoughts clear... you seem to be editing everything you post.</p>
<p>MovieBuff: You are obsessed with bashing Duke.. Duke is just as strong if not stronger than most of the Ivies! Many Ivies such as Columbia & Penn play a terrible game.. look at the stats of a lot of people who these schools reject... many of them are people who were accepted to HYP.. most (if not all) get into Duke.. it's no wonder that Penn has a much higher yield than Duke in that case.
You're an arrogant fool for thinking that Duke is a "safety" just because you were part of TIP.. you got in because of your grades and scores (I'm assuming they are very high..).</p>
<p>Results from my school this year...</p>
<p>I know of two people who were rejected by Duke who are now attending Ivies.. (Columbia & Penn).. and both were about 'average' for all three of these schools.</p>
<p>To me the Ivy League is a stupid concept. To me elite includes the Ivy league itself along with the surrounding universities who are just as good as the Ivy League from Duke, John Hopkins, etc. I personally think Duke is much better than Dartmouth, Cornell, or Brown. Its equal to Columbia I'd say.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I would say that your obsession with equating Duke to the ivies reflects a certain degree of insecurity or perhaps a growing inferiority complex.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>thoughtprocess is trying to refute your bashing of Duke based on anecdotal evidence. The fact that you equate Duke to a safety school just shows you are debating with an agenda. Its not a safety school for anyone. I gave up my spot at Brown for Duke so it goes both ways (and I know others who have).</p>
<p>And what meteoric rise. Duke has always been ranked in the top 10 since the USNews rankings started. The lowest it has been ranked is #8. Get your facts correct buddy.</p>
<p>And what point. I have yet to see you put any information up that isn't anecdotal. </p>
<p>If I were a betting man (and I am) I would say you suffer from ranking envy. Its okay...you will grow out of it.</p>
<p>
While this occasionally happens, there is NO evidence that it occurs in any significant numbers.</p>
<p>Moreover, Penn, for one, makes very clear that its policy is to accept only applicants who demonstrate a real interest in coming to Penn. In other words, it places great emphasis on the "Why Penn?" essay, etc. If someone submits a crappy essay, it doesn't matter how good the rest of the app is--he/she isn't getting admitted. This is not a "game" or an attempt to reject probable acceptees to HYP. It is an honest effort to accept only people who really want to be there, and not people who can't even make the effort to write a decent essay expressing real interest in the school.</p>