Duke: Overrated?

College Search & Selection
101

<p>


</p>

<p>The very first USNWR ranking, from 1983:</p>

<p>Stanford University 1
Harvard University 2<br>
Yale University 3
Princeton University 4
University of California at Berkeley 5
University of Chicago 6
University of Michigan at Ann Arbor 7
Cornell University 8
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 8
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 10
Dartmouth College 10
California Institute of Technology 12
Carnegie Mellon University 13
University of Wisconsin at Madison 13 </p>

<p><a href="http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/index.php?category=Universities&orgs=&sort=2007%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/index.php?category=Universities&orgs=&sort=2007&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

102

<p>I think the problem is differentiating between the Ivies too narrowly:</p>

<p>HYP > Duke. I think everyone will concede to that.</p>

<p>However, there is also a disparity between the rest of the Ivies</p>

<p>For example, I think by most metrics of prestige, acceptance rates, yield-- Columbia, Penn, Dartmouth (in that order), > Brown, Cornell.</p>

<p>So I would put it like this:</p>

<p>HYP > Columbia/Penn/Dartmouth > Duke >= Brown Cornell.</p>

<p>I think for PURELY/ARBITRARILY DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN GREAT SCHOOLS reasons it is more prudent to split the Ivies into 3 tiers. How do you compare Columbia/Wharton's 9% acceptance rates to Cornell's 20%+? And in general Columbia, Penn, Dartmouth are all more prestigious than Brown and Cornell. In fact, I think it's accurate to say that Duke has equal if not more prestige than Brown and Cornell. It certainly does not have the same cachet as Penn, Columbia, Dartmouth however.</p>

<p>Referring back to the Duke's adcom's comment that "against the next group of ivies--- Columbia, Dartmouth, Penn, Brown, Cornell" Duke wins 50% of the time. I believe if you take the average, you'd get something close to 50%. However, I am willing to stake a heavy bet that Duke loses more than 50% to Columbia/Penn cross-admits, and loses a lot less to Brown and Cornell. </p>

<p>I would go further to say that Columbia & Penn are almost certainly more prestigious and selective than Duke. For both Columbia and Penn, ALL of their graduate programs (law, business, medicine) are at the very pinnacle of each respective field. Columbia & Penn both have larger endowments, more research funding, a LOT more Nobels (in the case of Columbia) and Penn has its prestigious Wharton school == HYP for finance. Duke, as a University, can not be reasonably equated with Columbia and Penn (9% acceptance and 15% acceptance respectively-- columbia accepts 10% less students). </p>

<p>This is not to say that Duke is a bad school--- but I think many believe that the USNews rankings are not accurate in placing Columbia < Duke.</p>

103

<p>
[quote]
It certainly does not have the same cachet as Penn, Columbia, Dartmouth however.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In terms of what? Placement?</p>

104

<p>I don't know of too many engineers that would choose Dartmouth over Duke.. no offense. Every college has its own strengths.</p>

<p>My feeling when you look at everything..</p>

<p>Duke=Penn=Columbia=Dartmouth=Brown...there are things some of these schools are better at than others but when you look at the whole picture.. all five of these schools are equal in quality.</p>

<p>Why don't we do personal rankings?</p>

<p>1-Duke
2-Columbia
3-Dartmouth
4- Brown
5-Penn</p>

105

<p>TheThoughProcess--</p>

<p>In terms of PRESTIGE in the international scientific/research/intellectual community as a University.</p>

<p>Peer assessment scores (AKA PRESTIGE) for last year:</p>

<p>Harvard 4.9
Princeton 4.9
Yale 4.8
Columbia 4.6
Penn 4.5
Duke 4.5
Dartmouth 4.4</p>

<p>^that is what I mean. I am very well aware that Duke places extremely well--- I'm not contending its placement, only it's USNews rank.</p>

106

<p>Ah, thats fair enough. You've switched Duke and Dartmouth's PA scores though - Duke has 4.5 and Dartmouth has 4.4 - if you are using last year's US News. Other than that the list is right.</p>

107

<p>
[quote]
Harvard 4.9
Princeton 4.9
Yale 4.8
Columbia 4.6
Penn 4.5
Dartmouth 4.5

[/quote]

Just to note, Yale's PA was actually 4.9, the same as Harvard and Princeton. And Dartmouth's was 4.4. And Duke's was 4.5, the same as Penn.</p>

<p>edit:cross-posted with thethoughtprocess</p>

108

<p>I wouldn't consider the PA scores of USNews to be definitive. And even if they are, a 0-.1 difference in PA scores between Duke and Columbia/Penn/Dart is statistically insignificant. Duke undergrads have equal recruitment in finance (in certain areas like S&T, its slightly better than Dart), has equal placement in grad schools and has equal student profiles. All that tells me is that HYP is a leg above the non-HYP ivies (sans Brown and Cornell) and Duke. </p>

<p>Graduate schools are not coming into the equation here. As already posted, Duke's graduate programs are not up to par (relatively) to its undergraduate program. The fact that Duke generates a comparable PA score (as reputations among masses are generally created through grad programs) shows the strength of its undergrad program.</p>

109

<p>To the best of my knowledge no one who received their undergraduate degree from Duke has won a Noble Prize...</p>

<p>If that is wrong please let me know….</p>

<p>On the whole Duke is a good school…..in fact it is the best school in the nation for some kids others will not find it so…</p>

<p>The whole question of which is the best…..how good is…what other school it is better than ……is just silly…like arguing over how many angles can dance on the head of a pin…..</p>

<p>The question of which school is the best school in the country is not important at all…the question of which school is the best for a particular student is of the up most importance….</p>

<p>Let me repeat…..</p>

<p>The question of which school is the best school in the country is not important at all…the question of which school is the best for a particular student is of the up most importance….</p>

110

<p>"To the best of my knowledge no one who received their undergraduate degree from Duke has won a Noble Prize.."</p>

<p>Nobel Prize winners also went to undergrad about 30-40 years ago. Things change in that time period - fall of communism, man on moon, Duke becoming as strong academically as Ivies, etc.</p>

111

<p>thethoughtprocess, earlier you had stated that:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Duke admissions uses the fact it splits applicants evenly with non-HYP Ivies frequently when talking about how strong a school it is. The range is 45-55% between Classes of 2008 and 2010 with Dartmouth, Brown, Penn, and Columbia

[/quote]
</p>

<p>As i had stated earlier, I believe that this was just a generalization since that specific number of cross admits only approximates the number for Cornell. (54% going to Cornell and 46 % to Duke)
In fact, the number of cross admits to the other ivies you mentioned (and did not mention) has been estimated to be as follows: </p>

<p>Brown 78% ( Duke gets 22%)
Dartmouth 70% (Duke gets 30% )
Columbia 74 % (Duke gets 26% )
Penn 66% (Duke gets 34% )</p>

<p>I believe that this is not an "even split". The only approximation to your number is with Cornell (which is actually the number that Duke likes to play with, of course)</p>

<p>In fact, it seems that Duke loses cross admits to ALL ivies. To state the opposite would actually be "overrating" Duke. It is a great place anyway. There is no need to do that.</p>

112

<p>This thread reminds me of this saying:</p>

<p>"Arguing online is like racing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you're still a retard."</p>

113

<p>Again it has already been discussed that there were several major flaws with the RP study. Look at it this way: If Brown actually got 78% of all cross admits, they would have refuted Guttentag (the Duke adcom)'s statement that its evenly split. No admissions office wants bad press and they are very careful about what sort of information is released (go see how big the "News and Communication" office at the various schools are). It makes more sense to trust the numbers presented by an admissions office than an academic study (which studies a population which is not representative of the applicant pool at all these schools).</p>

114

<p>Do you really think, that any of the Ivies, or any school for that matter cares to get into a spat with another peer school over an insignificant statement? </p>

<p>What're they gonna say, "OMG YOU LIEEED in one of your quotes????"... Look at the people who man the helms at these preeminent universities, they are beyond that.</p>

<p>Edit: The fact is also undeniable that it is likely that Duke wins a lot more from Cornell than any other Ivies, to which they lose the majority of the time. No matter how good duke purportedly is, it still doesn't have the cachet of an Ivy League school.</p>

115

<p>I'm a Maryland fan, and this right here is why Duke sucks:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=119YpI9fSwo%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=119YpI9fSwo&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>**** THE BLUE DEVILS</p>

116

<p>Well, there are even major flaws in the data presented by the admissions office, (which is why probably they did not bother to refute The New York Times article where those numbers were published). In fact, the article appeared almost two weeks after the statements from the Dean were published in The Chronicle, Duke's newspaper. (I think that more people read The New York Times than The Chronicle, but then again, I do not have the numbers and this is purely anecdotal and an assumption) In fact, probably only the people from Duke, who read The Chronicle, are the ones that are familiar with that statement. Most schools are working with the numbers I referred to, so it would be the opposite. Guttentag would be the one refuting....and Duke has never done so.</p>

<p>The admissions office works with a "subset" of data which is made up by the responses of the students who "choose" to return the post cards indicating that they will not be going to Duke. Many students do not return anything or they choose not to write in the the name of the school they will be attending. I am sure that an explanation about what this implies statistically is not needed..... Or is it?</p>

117

<p>
[quote]
In fact, it seems that Duke loses cross admits to ALL ivies.

[/quote]

Even if a school lost every single one of its cross-admits to the ivies, it could still provide an education just as good, if not better.</p>