Duke Pratt vs. CMU SCS

[viphan]

Dear parents of CC,

I come today humbly seeking your advice on the ultimate decision I have to make soon. Hopefully, your wisdom and your past experiences will guide me to the right course of action.

As you can see in the title, I am torn between the two schools remaining after my initial elimination. My original four were UMich, Duke, Georgetown, and CMU SCS. After some great advice from my families and friends, and some of the CC members, I have (roughly) eliminated UMich and Georgetown, although I am still open for their defense.

What I would like to do eventually, of course subject to change in future years to come, is to get an engineering/CS bachelor’s degree and pursue an MBA. Although I will be an engineering undergrad, I would hate to do “pure” engineering work for the rest of my life. I would rather do an administrative/managerial work for a corporation/agency especially as I age.

So the tough deliberation point by point:

1. Academics
Because I would like to pursue undergraduate studies in Computer Science or Computer Engineering, the “prestigiousness” of Carnegie Mellon’s SCS - which is on par with Berkeley and Stanford - is much better than Duke’s Pratt, without a doubt. Some of the posts I’ve read here on CC said - and I quote - “If you pick Duke over CMU in CS, you are making the most serious mistake in your life, and you are simply NOT the material to learn CS. And I am serious.”

When I asked the current CMU SCS students, they said that CMU focuses much more on the theoretical aspect than the “hands-on” aspect of the CS, making the course especially hard. On the other hand, current Pratt students told me that Duke’s engineering is a growing department, attracting renowned faculties and making breakthroughs every day. Which institution is better at providing undergraduate research/internship opportunities?

Another aspect in this vein is the graduate school placement rate. How do the two schools compare especially with the top MBA programs in the country?

What are your thoughts on this? Also, many of you have worked in the professional world – how would you view CMU SCS grads vs. Duke Pratt grads especially in the administrative position?

2. School Environment/Life
Caveat: I have been to CMU campus twice, but I have not been on Duke’s campus just yet (visiting this weekend). The reasoning behind this is simple: I don’t want to make a hasty decision purely because of the “campus beauty”, which Duke is well-known for.

There seems to be a tad more students at Duke than at CMU. But CMU’s campus spirit cannot possibly match that of Duke’s. I loved Michigan for its students’ soaring spirit. After Duke’s domination in the past month, I am positive I will feel the same. As for students, CMU students definitely felt more “nerdy” (not necessarily a bad thing), but a good basketball game once in a while does definitely help in a stressful academic environment.

How’s the academic environment at these two institutions (competitive vs. collaborative)? If there is any level of competitiveness between the students, which is more cutthroat and to what degree?

3. Financial Aid
As of right now, Duke will cost about half what CMU will cost me. Duke’s CoA will be just affordable for my family, while I would have to take out loans in tens of thousands for CMU. After I go through CMU’s FA appeals process, I will update.

Now, assuming that the FA award will stay in this situation, is CMU SCS worth twice of Duke’s Pratt?

I believe I have separated the bullet points of consideration into three biggest factors. If there are things I forgot to consider, which you believe is important, your input is definitely more than welcome. Duke’s very best apologist @TopTier‌ has well argued for his alma mater, so I would like to hear the opinions of the opposite.

Given your expertise in the professional business world and as a “professional parent” , which school do you think would better suit me? Any advice or insight is certainly appreciated!

[ucbalumnus]

If you do not envision enjoying a career of CS or engineering, you may be at higher risk of not liking school in those subjects.

[TopTier]

@viphan‌: You may wish to consider that “apologist” is not remotely synonymous with “advocate.” Duke, in fact, has done nothing for which an apology is either necessary or desirable.

[viphan]

@TopTier‌ Duke may have to “apologize” to Wisconsin for manhandling them tonight!

[TopTier]

^ ^ ^
I’ll VERY happily settle for a great and cleanly played game, between two fine teams and universities, with a narrow Duke victory.

[mathmom]

I am the world’s biggest cheerleader for CMU, but if you aren’t really serious about comp sci, I don’t think you belong there. I wouldn’t normally be that worried about the loans - the average SCS grad will get offers in the $80,000+ range, but you should buy into the nerdy collaborative culture there. I’m guessing you’d be much happier at Duke and if you decide comp sci isn’t really for you, the rest of the school has strong backup plans.

Have you done any programming? Not every one at CMU will have, but a lot of the other students have been programming in Linux since middle school.

[PurpleTitan]

They’re both great options. Duke would offer more opportunities in consulting and finance than CMU, IMO. CMU does better at placing grads in to pure software roles (though Duke does pretty well). Look at the rankings below:
https://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/edu/rankings/us/undergraduate-software-engineering
https://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/edu/rankings/us/graduate-software-engineering-small

So if the costs were the same, you may have a tough decision in your hands (though not extremely tough; CMU CS is intense; it’s for kids who live and breathe code & CS, so if you’re not like that, it may not be for you).
With the differential in costs, however, this is a slam-dunk easy decision.

BTW, Duke grads are far more likely than CMU grads to go to elite MBA programs, though that’s far more a function of the different interests of the respective student bodies, IMO (though Duke definitely has a bigger alumni network in the traditional MBA feeder industries of banking and consulting). However, the biggest determinant of where you get your MBA will be you, not which of these schools you went for undergrad.

[cobrat]

One issue is if you’re not hardcore into CS and you’re already thinking of going the business administration/MBA route, you won’t be happy in the hardcore engineering/CS environment of CMU’s engineering/CS departments. That won’t help in dealing with the exceedingly rigorous curriculum and nerdy* #1 engineering/CS oriented campus culture there which may negatively affect your academic record.

Another thing to think about is CMU’s main strengths are engineering/CS and Dramatic Arts so if you decide to change majors to anything outside of those two areas, you’ll be taking a serious academic step downwards according to what I’ve heard from many CMU alums from engineering/CS and Dramatic Arts.

In that light, Duke sounds like a better choice not only financially, but also in terms of having more strengths in many academic areas outside of a few narrow areas.

• In the high academically achieving sense.
  

[mathyone]

Having toured both schools with my prospective CS major daughter last year, I agree with everything cobrat just said. CMU’s program is very strong but from your description of your interests/goals and considering the sizeable cost difference, I think Duke is the clear choice for you.

[Cardinal_Fang]

I’m a nerdy software engineer (retired now) and Mr. Fang has a doctorate in Computer Science from Stanford who had a long career in software. We both agree that if you envision an MBA and a business career, you’re not the kind of person who would be happy studying CS at CMU. CS at CMU is plenty hands-on, as is CS at any top school, so you’d spend many long nights debugging. If you don’t like to spend ten straight hours in front of a screen chasing down some stupid bug, CMU is not the place for you. Go to Duke and be happy.

[SkepticalOfMost]

Viphan, I’ll be blunt. Unless you have a passion for CS, as taught at CMU, you’ll probably flounder there.

I love the following quote by Prof. Luis Von Ahn on Quora:

“On hard work. The other people answering are pansies. Pain is good.”

My daughter is a freshman at CMU and wholeheartedly endorses that sentiment. She’s never studied so hard in her life, has never been as frustrated, yet has never felt she’s learned so much so quickly nor has had such a sense of accomplishment. She buys into the pain.

Are you ready for Fs, Ds or Cs on tests/papers, probably for the first time in your life? How will you handle that?

[BldrDad]

@viphan - I’m a Duke BSME/CS graduate (from long before it became Pratt). I’m not that knowledgeable about CMU but my daughter and I toured the campus two years ago - she elected not to apply there after the visit.

I think CMU SCS would be an amazing place for a very bright student with a strong passion for CS, The Duke CS offerings are likely to pale in comparison. If your goal is it be a computer scientist, there could be no better place to be than CMU SCS.

However, for all other reasons, and in particular for campus spirit and residential life, I can’t imagine why someone would pick CMU over Duke, especially if Duke will be significantly less expensive.

Personally, I don’t think I received a great engineering education from Duke, but I did receive a good all-around education. I have never felt that attending Duke Engineering helped my future career - in fact I would have probably had more success as an engineer if I had attended Michigan, but I treasured my time at Duke. That was decades ago though - I’m sure Duke has invested a lot into the Pratt since then. Duke students are also brighter than they have ever been as the school has become increasingly selective over the years.

Based on your description of who you are and where you hope your life takes you, I would think that Duke would be a better fit for you. Only you can make that decision though.

I would highly recommend you visit Duke if at all possible, especially if you have already visited CMU. It should make it much easier for you to decide which path to chose. There is no question they are very different paths, so chose wisely.

[Dad_of_3]

DS started in CMU SCS and ended up getting a double major SCS and ECE. I know nothing about Duke, so I won’t comment on that. For DS, the program couldn’t have been a better fit, but then we would work on comp sci and EE projects from perhaps 5th-6th grades. Unbelievable comp sci related job/internship/co-op opportunities on campus and off, even during his freshman school year and summer locally, and on the west coast during other years. There were also well paying co-op opportunities which he didn’t take, but some of his classmates did to fund their education.

How peoples’ interests evolve with time is not set in stone. I expected DS to be in a west coast startup for several years, and yet he bailed out and headed to NY for a different career. So for you, the important thing is if you have a passion and skill for CS and plan on such a career for a few years, CMU will be great; there’s nothing that will hold you down to a techie job forever, but if you plan to explore other options right away, perhaps you want to factor those interests too.

[viphan]

Thank you all so much for your replies; I will take them to heart when I make my final decision.

Most of you were right when you implied that I’m not a “hardcore” programmer, or even a CS student. I am drawn to a particular branch of CS, but I am also attracted to other disciplines as well, making it a well-rounded interest, not a specialized interest.

Any other advice or insights is still more than welcome. Thank you!

[JZMOM2]

“Duke will cost about half what CMU will cost me.” Sounds like a no brainer to me. It’s a wonderful school in a great location. (I attended law/grad school there.) In addition, CMU is just not worth the stress if you’re not really into CS. DS is a sophomore there in CS. It is pretty much a relentless grind. They’re not kidding about their motto, “My heart is in the work.” They want all of you, body and soul. (At least, that’s the way I see it as a parent, especially when I hear about the great all around college experience other people’s children are having - not that Duke will be light on workload!)

[ucbalumnus]

@viphan

Most of you were right when you implied that I’m not a “hardcore” programmer, or even a CS student.

Remember that CS at any decent school for CS will not be a cakewalk, particularly if your interest in the subject is not there.

[viphan]

@ucbalumnus‌ Never would I expect “cakewalk” for schools of these caliber. I am ready and prepared to take on the challenge, and minimize the effect of the rude awakening.

As I said, I am drawn to a particular branch of CS - namely Cryptography - and am willing to go through the requirements of CS to take a specific course relating to that sub-field.

[ucbalumnus]

I hope you like advanced math. Cryptography is based on a lot of abstract algebra and number theory.

[Ynotgo]

Have you done cryptography or are you interested in it from the outside? The hacking competitions (CTFs) run by and participated in by teams at CMU (primarily Plaid Parliament of Pwning) are top-notch, and encryption/decryption are a big piece of hacking. But, the people on the PPP team probably did cryptography as a hobby in high school.

[SkepticalOfMost]

@viphan, I’ll come back to one of your original points re ‘school spirit’. I think ‘spirit’ can come in several different ways. In many cases at schools with big/successful sports programs spirit is passive - students/alums watch games and brag about what the athletes did.

As my daughter reported in on the next stressful week at CMU last night I realized that there’s another form of spirit, one that involves participation rather than observing.

Part of this week’s stress is preparation for Carnival and, in particular, working on her sorority’s ‘booth’. But she’s loving it and the girls really want first place.

Many of her friends have been practicing on ‘buggy’ teams since the first week or so of school.

Others are into ‘mobot’.

A few weeks ago Greek Sing was put on, which involved many hours of planning, practice and preparation.

So I realized there definitely is a strong sense of spirit at CMU but it’s the type that celebrates the participation of a much larger number of students in activities than just watching a relatively few students run up/down a floor/field.

The bragging rights are pretty limited in scope, of course, since no one outside of the CMU community will give darn if you’re on the winning buggy team, but planning, preparation, practice and teamwork are all valuable skills to develop and it’s cool that so many students get involved. Sounds like spirit to me, just not what we typically think of though.

And for those with daughters, isn’t it pretty cool to see girls in hard hats using power tools? ;->