Why does it matter where homosexuality comes from? It is, just like religion is. A law barring Catholics from marrying Lutherans would violate the Equal Protection clause even though there’s nothing biological about belonging to either sect. People’s right to equal treatment under the law has nothing to do with biology.
“I’m certainly no academic, but endorsing these unsubstantiated allegations certainly doesn’t support the “relatively educated” premise that’s been bandied about. I won’t even touch the “anti-gay, anti-minority, anti-women” broadbrush, gratuitous mudslinging of Christians (oops, Conservative Christians) posted earlier in this thread.”
I’d like to point out that asking some to check their unearned privilege and/or acknowledge other ways of being, is not the same thing as “mudslinging”. Loss of unearned privilege is not discrimination.
And, let me not back down from this assertion: if someone wants to restrict my rights in the bedroom or at the doctor’s office or anywhere, based on their idea of what their God, or their friend, or their favorite novella has to say - then this is not appropriate in the United States. And if they want to control my body (I’m a woman), they’re anti-women. And if they want to control the gender of the person I marry, they’re anti-gay.
520 - "It's completely irrelevant whether homosexuality is "born that way" or a chosen behavior."
521 - "Why does it matter where homosexuality comes from? It is, just like religion is. A law barring Catholics from marrying Lutherans would violate the Equal Protection clause even though there's nothing biological about belonging to either sect. People's right to equal treatment under the law has nothing to do with biology."
I completely agree with you actually, it doesn’t matter. The problem is I don’t think you really believe that. Because the minute I say everyone is treated equally under the law, everyone can choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, and no one can choose to marry someone from the same sex, you know like marriage as marriage has been defined for ages and ages, you object. You say, he or she IS a homosexual, like he or she has no choice in the matter.
520 - "Either way, the actions of two consenting adults who love one another and desire to be committed - it's just not any business or concern of mine what the specifics in the bedroom look like."
Why limit it to two? Why not five or six? Why not minors? At some point we the people have to come together and decide what a marriage is. That is what you are doing here also when you limit it to two consenting adults. Why do you think that is ok? Doesn’t that come from some value or belief you have about what a marriage is? There is no difference.
I can’t stand the expression “unearned privilege” and I still say “you go, fretfulmother” 
Why is Christian theocracy any better than sharia law? Either are inappropriate in the US.
“like he or she has no choice in the matter.”
Well, you ARE a Christian, right? Do you have a choice in that matter?
My guess is that you don’t really feel that you do, even though it isn’t biological. Something doesn’t have to be biological to be an essential part of who you are – something you don’t believe you OUGHT to have to change. I’m not interested in telling you that you can or that you should, even though plenty of former Christians have done it.
Ya lost me in #517, Lou, I have no idea what you are implying.
Lou, do you choose not to be gay, or it just happens?
Do you think a sincere Moslem should have the religious freedom to enter into polygamous marriages, in the US?
@ fretfulmother Meh.
Much2learn
Label it what you want.
“Why limit it to two? Why not five or six? Why not minors?”
Why not minors? Because as a society we believe children cannot consent to legally binding decisions - buying houses, signing contracts, having sex, and marriage.
Why not five or six? Honestly, as long as the legal specifics could be worked out (regarding health care benefits, social security benefits, next-of-kin decisions, how wills would be handled, etc), and as long as it’s legally consenting adults, it really wouldn’t bother me all that much. Not my cup of tea, but lots of things aren’t my cup of tea.
Why are you not equally upset by cohabitating couples?
"Because the minute I say everyone is treated equally under the law, everyone can choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, and no one can choose to marry someone from the same sex, you know like marriage as marriage has been defined for ages and ages, you object. "
We object because this is the exact same argument that was used for interracial marriage. “it’s fair - everyone can marry someone of their own race, and no one can marry anyone of a different race. Like it’s been for years and years.” Well, now there’s interracial marriage and the world hasn’t blown up. So now what?
What do you fear would happen? What HAS happened in countries where gays can / have gotten married? Or the states where it’s been legal for a longer time versus those states that had to be dragged kicking and screaming?
The anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-minority viewpoint of many conservative Christians are increasingly farther from the way of life and values of mainstream America.
I’m a (somewhat economically) conservative Christian, and I don’t hate anyone. The vast majority don’t – and I know plenty.
And if 60% of the country is Christian, and probably at least half of them are conservatives or moderate Repubs… then what is the mainstream? Is there not at least some overlap? That’s an awful lot of people living outside of “the mainstream” if they are not part of what defines it…
This is a strawman. Please stop.
And not really singling you out on this, @LOUKYDAD, it’s just that this was the most recent one in my feed here—the strawmen are starting to come fast and furious from all (not both—reading carefully, there are clearly more than two) sides in this thread, I fear.
dfbdfb - oh good grief. If you aren’t interested in what I have to say, skip over it. No one says you have to read it or engage with me at all.
Disagreement ≠ not wanting to engage.
Criticism ≠ not wanting to engage.
In fact, disagreement and criticism would seem to me to be, pretty clearly, a desire to engage.
Seriously, I don’t get the response in #533 at all. Care to unpack it a bit?
""Posters here are much more likely to have read the Bible than conservative Christians. A very low percentage of them have actually read the whole thing. Even fewer have actually taken college level courses in it.
Conservatives want to tell you what it says, but they haven’t read it. They just cherry pick the verses that say what they mean."
This qualifies as the most ignorant, the most pompous, and the most theophobic comment of any made so far in this thread. You have no idea what you are talking about. Let me give you an exercise to help you branch out a bit.
First, somewhat geographically biased from me, but you can start with an evangelical seminary in my own backyard if you like. Here is the faculty page for the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY:
http://www.sbts.edu/theology/faculty/.
Browse around and then do a little research on each one on your own regarding the volume of works the SBTS faculty have published."
Christians knowledge of the Bible
- In my experience, maybe 1 in 10 christians has taken the time to read the bible. A few more will say the have because they are embarrassed, but a little discussion makes it clear that they haven’t read it.
- Highly educated people are much more likely to investigate by reading. I read it, Hanna said she read it. I think it is part of the curriculum at Columbia. I am sure that many of the posters here have read it. It is a very important book whether you believe it or not, so highly educated people think they need to read it.
“This qualifies as the most ignorant, the most pompous, and the most theophobic comment of any made so far in this thread. You have no idea what you are talking about. Let me give you an exercise to help you branch out a bit.”
This statement is just silly, but I like the dramatic effect. I am definitely not theophobic. I attended a christian college and studied the bible. I may not agree with your theists, but I am not afraid or opposed to theists at all. I actually rather enjoy talking to theists.
In that process, I learned how little the average christian really knows about the book they believe in. Beyond your average Christian, even some ministers have never taken the time to read the whole book. Few Christians take the time to learn anything about what the bible actually says, who wrote the books that are included, when they were written, why they were written, how it was compiled into the canon, what the best scholarship and evidence is regarding these facts from a historical / critical perspective.
People don’t choose a religion based on an objective review of the facts. They choose based on the religion of their family or they choose the group that they think will best meet their needs, whatever those may be.
Cherry Picking
Cherry pick example: Conservative Christians say they are all about Jesus and they want to be like Jesus. At the same time, they are strongly anti-gay. My question is all that Jesus said, from when he first speaks at his baptism, to the sermon on the mount, the the cross, to his appearances after the resurrection, what did he say about LGBTQ people As I am sure you are aware, he said nothing about it at all. He never mentions homosexuality.
Bible Basics (New Testament only)
If you want a good start point for basic education. Here is one of the most common Intro to the New Testament books used by colleges. It is basic, easy to understand and approaches the bible in a scholarly way, and is largely aligned with the bulk of religious scholars. It is not written from the perspective of any particular denomination. Consider learning the facts, evidence, and reasons that most scholars support these views, before you argue.
Perhaps the new book thread we need in the cafe is one on the Bible. This thread started out about Fun Home. For what it’s worth, I’ve now read both books. I am not sure why this thread is discussing the Bible. Is that one of the books alluded to in Fun Home? I can’t remember, but there were so many.
TheAtlantic: if you are still reading, I’m sending you some more hugs.
“Ya lost me in #517, Lou, I have no idea what you are implying.”
In #517, my point was IF, IF, IF I were to say that, what I would really be implying is that there is really not much evidence that people are “born this way”, that the majority of people who believe that are just lemmings who could be convinced of almost anything, that they aren’t really serious, thoughtful people at all, etc.
In #494 I was responding not just what M2L said, but what it implies.
“Lou, do you choose not to be gay, or it just happens?”
Short answer - yes I do.
“Do you think a sincere Moslem should have the religious freedom to enter into polygamous marriages, in the US?”
Of course not. It isn’t consistent with my understanding of what marriage is or how the majority of people in my state define it. Unfortunately, however, they will be able to soon enough. There is no way SCOTUS can be consistent with this ruling and restrict marriage to only two partners.
I m sorry, I usually don’t jump in this kind of conversation, but I have to point out there have been plenty of studies on biology and sexual orientations…so saying “oh being gay is a choice” is not true. There are many articles on it, too.
One of them is Differential brain activation in exclusively homosexual and heterosexual men produced by the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, fluoxetine". Brain Res. 1024 (1–2): 251–4. So, “choice of sexual orientation” is not scientifically true.
“The anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-minority viewpoint of many conservative Christians are increasingly farther from the way of life and values of mainstream America.”
@Prezbucky “I’m a (somewhat economically) conservative Christian, and I don’t hate anyone. The vast majority don’t – and I know plenty.”
It is amazing to me that this is controversial statement. I didn’t say all Christians, or even most Christians, I said “many conservative Christians.” Just as a start, the conservative Christians of the religious right have fought women’s suffrage, fought the Equal Rights Amendment, fought the end of segregation, fought the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, fought birth control, and fought gay marriage. How can this be a controversial statement?
So Lou, in principle could you choose to be gay? I couldn’t, myself, no matter what. One glance at a woman and all my effort would be futile. And did you choose once and that’s it for life, or you need to regularly check and reaffirm your choice?
And if you value a religious definition of marriage for yourself, why shouldn’t Moslems get to follow their own definition? There are countries that work fine with different marriage laws for different communities.