<p>Sorry to post twice on the same subject. I thought i erased my first post.</p>
<p>Rjko,
Actually, in nearly every instance where I am making a comparison and presenting data, I post the same set of data. Almost all of the data comes from the Common Data Set which I would hope you don’t consider a slanted source. By contrast, the PA is a subjective measure which is even rejected by many in the academic community. IMO, it belongs on the bottom...or even better, not at all. </p>
<p>As for the presentation of any data, you know that there are no restrictions being placed on you, right? I’m certainly not trying to dictate to you what is and is not admissible. I’m perfectly happy to make my presentation and have you or anyone else make theirs and then let the reader decide. </p>
<p>And I'm sorry, but the only bubble that has been burst is yours as the data pretty clearly shows that there are large differences between Duke and U Michigan.</p>
<p>I'm not going to argue all night with you hawkette. I believe i made my points clearly. You pointed out the all important % stats, such as the number of greeks on campus and differences in number of minorities. When you add nonsense data like this to prove that Duke has a superior edge on Michigan, you lose your argument. I guess i just have a different opinion of what i feel is truly important at a university. Sobetit. However, in my view, your remarks are elitist and in my book that makes your statements less then genuine. By the way, this is my final rebuttal on this subject. You can post your "important" percentages without any more interference from me. I just hope the youngter readers understand where i'm coming from and can form an educated opionion based on "relative" factual data.</p>
<p>Rjko,
Having no idea of the OP's position on Greeks or on interest/belief in diversity, I think it is funny that you consider these as more favorable to Duke. Heck, I don't even know the comparison without scrolling back and seeing what it is. It's just data that some student might be interested in. </p>
<p>Same with much of the data that I provide. Rarely do I expect all of the posted data to have relevance for all readers, but I’ll let them make that choice. Furthermore, I’ll let readers decide if posting a broad range of information comparing two colleges is elitist.</p>
<p>thanks for the information. Everyone . It wads very helpful. No need to aegis though.</p>
<p>I think all the Michigan folks on this board are just a tad bit agitated by Hawkette's numerous ways of saying "don't get me wrong, michigan is a fine state school, peers with Lehigh and Boston College". </p>
<p>Duke is a more selective school, we get it, and nobody will disagree with that.</p>
<p>But, you are like a high school kid trying to pat himself on the back all the time with the selectivity ratings comparisons. </p>
<p>Overall, if Michigan were to practice the same mix-and-match ways of private schools, We'd have a 1350-1370 median SAT for the entire incoming freshman class of 6000, median GPA of 3.9, 92% in the top 10%. It's not as selective as Duke, but everybody is smart. </p>
<p>All we are saying is, the guy that gets into Duke and Michigan, will do just as well at either place, it's a matter of fit, where the person will feel most comfortable, the environment, the social life., etc.</p>
<p>Let's forget rankings for a second and just look at both schools in an objective manner, especially since finances aren't a concern in your case.</p>
<p>SIMILARITIES BETWEEN DUKE AND MICHIGAN
1. good social scene
2. EXTREMELY STRONG school spirit
3. excellent reputations in academic circles
4. great faculty
5. sweet sports teams</p>
<p>PROS OF ATTENDING MICHIGAN
1. located in a better college town
2. football
3. better off-campus dining scene</p>
<p>PROS OF ATTENDING DUKE
1. MUCH stronger in your prospective major BME(#2 in the nation)
2. location in the Research Triangle Area(which means VERY easy access to internships because it is the #1 spot for biomedical research and has the most phds/postdoctoral grads in the area of study in the country)
3. more intelligent and accomplished student body overall(although Honors College at UMich is comparable)
4. stronger alumni network
5. much more gorgeous campus
6. warmer weather
7. basketball
8. better reputation in professional circles(business, law, medical, etc.)
9. better undergraduate focus
10. MUCH STRONGER advising
11. better on-campus dining options
12. smaller classes so better faculty/student ratio and access to faculty
13. MUCH MORE resources available per student for service opportunities(DukeEngage) and Study Abroad
14. far more intellectual student body(quirky conversations, willingness to discuss ideas, etc.)
15. more racially and geographically diverse student body
16. better research opportunities</p>
<p>Duke and Michigan are not peer schools. Although certain programs with UM like Ross and the Honors College can compare, Duke is a better college than Michigan overall and ESPECIALLY for BME. Biomedical engineering is Duke's specialty and students commonly reject HYPS to pursue BME here.</p>
<p>I have an extensive knowledge of both schools as a current Duke student and a longtime resident of Michigan who attended a high school that was a UMich feeder. Both are fantastic schools and you wouldn't be making a "mistake" per say by choosing Michigan over Duke. The same could be said if you chose Michigan over Harvard. You're still going to get a terrific education and have great post-grad opportunities from both places.</p>
<p>I would avoid going to UMich because the state of Michigan is headed to economic ruin. The state has extremely high unemployment right now and more jobs are being lost due to the demise of The Big 3 auto industries. The state is going to lose a lot of money over the next 5-10 years and UM will definitely be affected in my opinion. Duke's location on the other hand IS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE as jobs are actually being created here at an alarming rate and The Research Triangle is the #1 spot to be for a biomedical engineer because of the internship and research opportunities.</p>
<p>I hope you decide to attend Duke. :) Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about either school.</p>
<p>Jbonee:</p>
<p>See what I meant about the partisans weighing in? </p>
<p>I expected Evil Asian Dictator to show up at some point. He certainly is passionate about Duke and wants to share his experience. But, as you can see, he has clearly drunk the Blue Kool-Aid and his "look at both schools in an objective manner" is just a wee bit biased.</p>
<p>I am surprised, though, that he left #17 off the Duke List of All Things Golden:</p>
<ol>
<li>Duke has the most extensive lemur facility in the world outside of Madagascar.</li>
</ol>
<p>I know that this is something they are very, very proud of at Duke because when we toured there a few weeks ago it was highlighted several times in the pre-info session slide show, again in the opening video, the info session guy mentioned it at least twice, and our tour guide must have mentioned it five or six times. When you graduate from Duke, in addition to a diploma, you also get a lemur. He rides around on your shoulder and wears a little Blue Devils jersey. Every kid in my class (I teach fifth grade) wants to go to Duke now, just for the lemur alone.</p>
<p>EAD, some of your points aren't quite correct. </p>
<p>PROS OF ATTENDING DUKE
1. MUCH stronger in your prospective major BME(#2 in the nation):</p>
<p>How can #2 be "MUCH stronger" than #9? I agree that Duke's BME program is stronger than Michigan's, but Michigan is still among the top 10 nationally in BME. </p>
<ol>
<li>location in the Research Triangle Area(which means VERY easy access to internships because it is the #1 spot for biomedical research and has the most phds/postdoctoral grads in the area of study in the country):</li>
</ol>
<p>I don't know enough about this subject to comment, but I will take your word for it.</p>
<ol>
<li>more intelligent and accomplished student body overall(although Honors College at UMich is comparable):</li>
</ol>
<p>On average, yes, Duke students are more accomplished. But Michigan's student body will offer a student any challenge they could possibly seek.</p>
<ol>
<li>stronger alumni network:</li>
</ol>
<p>Not likely. Michigan's alumni network is unbeatable. Duke is too I am sure, but one does not trump the other.</p>
<ol>
<li>much more gorgeous campus:</li>
</ol>
<p>Not really. Duke's gothic architecture does not fit with the environment. Michigan's campus is not as pretty but it is just as impressive.</p>
<ol>
<li>warmer weather</li>
</ol>
<p>That's assuming one likes warmer weather. </p>
<ol>
<li>basketball</li>
</ol>
<p>100% agree!</p>
<ol>
<li>better reputation in professional circles(business, law, medical, etc.)</li>
</ol>
<p>From my experience, I would have to say you are wrong here. Michigan's reputation accross most industries equals Duke's. Of course, My experience is limited to manufacturing, Investment Banking, Private Equity, Consulting and High Tech. </p>
<ol>
<li>better undergraduate focus:</li>
</ol>
<p>Agreed. </p>
<ol>
<li>MUCH STRONGER advising:</li>
</ol>
<p>I don't know how much advice a highly intelligent 20-22 year old needs, but for what it's worth, I would have to agree that Duke has stronger (not MUCH STRONGER) advising.</p>
<ol>
<li>better on-campus dining options:</li>
</ol>
<p>I have only dined on Duke's campus a handful of times and I was never impressed. Then again, Michigan is not great in this department either. However, in terms of off-campus dining, both schools have excellent options.</p>
<ol>
<li>smaller classes so better faculty/student ratio and access to faculty:</li>
</ol>
<p>At the Freshman level, yes. Not so at the intermediate and advanced levels.</p>
<ol>
<li>MUCH MORE resources available per student for service opportunities(DukeEngage) and Study Abroad:</li>
</ol>
<p>No familiar enough to speak on this subject.</p>
<ol>
<li>far more intellectual student body(quirky conversations, willingness to discuss ideas, etc.):</li>
</ol>
<p>Not really. I did not get the intellectual vide at Duke. Duke is awesome, but it is not like Brown, Chicago and yes, Michigan, when it comes to intellectual students and environment. </p>
<ol>
<li>more racially and geographically diverse student body:</li>
</ol>
<p>Yes and no. In terms of real diversity, Duke and Michigan are very similar. Yes, Duke has a slightly lower "white" population and a much higher ratio of out-of-state students. But if you look closely, the differences are cosmetic. Close to 60% of Duke undergraduate students from from the Mid Atlantic and Southeast. 75% of Michigan undergraduate students come from the Midwest.</p>
<p>% of students from the Northeast:
Michigan: 10%
Duke: 15%</p>
<p>% of students from the West Coast:
Michigan: 5%
Duke: 10%</p>
<p>% international students:
Michigan: 5%
Duke: 6% </p>
<p>% Asian:
Michigan: 12%
Duke: 20%</p>
<p>% African American:
Michigan 7%
Duke: 10%</p>
<p>% Hispanic:
Michigan: 6%
Duke: 7%</p>
<p>In truth, both universities, like most other universities, are regional. Duke appeals most to students from the Mid-Atlantic, Southeast and Northeast. Michigan appeals most to students from the Midwest and Northeast.</p>
<ol>
<li>better research opportunities</li>
</ol>
<p>I doubt it. Michigan's research opportunities at amazing. Freshmen seeking research opportunities are assigned to projects on a one-on-one basis with faculty before they even step on campus.</p>
<p>Alexandre, I think the analysis you provided in response to my earlier post is very reasonable and I definitely see where you are coming from, especially considering that you are slightly biased towards Michigan and I am slightly biased towards Duke.</p>
<p>However, I am extremely curious as to the reason that you rank schools in the way that you do seeing that I've never met anyone who seems to use the reasoning that you do on the matter. You say that Michigan and Duke are peer schools, which is understandable, if you mean it in the sense that all top-tier schools(of whose members definitely include Duke and Michigan) provide an excellent education for their undergraduates. However, you seem to elevate HYPSM above the rest of the top-tier schools for some reason. Why do you consider Harvard at all superior to Michigan when you believe that "Michigan's alumni network is unbeatable" and "Michigan's student body will offer a student any challenge they could possibly seek"? According to the way you view the top schools in a relative manner, then it seems strange that you don't consider Harvard or Princeton to be peers of Michigan as well.</p>
<p>By all known academic measures, it would appear that Harvard, Duke and UMich belong in three separate tiers. The jump between average SAT scores, diversity of students, selectivity, academic resources, etc. from Harvard to Duke to Michigan is equally significant. That's why people rank HYPSM in one tier, the other top privates schools in another tier and the top publics in yet another tier. However, you seem to create a tier for HYPSM specifically but then lump every other top school pretty much together in another tier and say that they are all relatively similar in quality.</p>
<p>Can you explain why you do this?</p>
<p>Simple EAD, I do not think Harvard (or MIT, Princeton, Stanford and Yale) are in a league of their own because of the talent of their student bodies. If I did, Caltech would be in that group too. Washington University would be better than Brown, Chicago, Columbia and Cornell and on par with Dartmouth and Duke...and those three would be on par with Stanford. </p>
<p>Student quality is very important but it is, as I have always maintained, a constant. Students at a university do not hang out with the enitre student body. Students typically hang out with students who share similar interests and take similar courses. Generally speaking, students who stick to very easy classes at any university will probably end up hanging out with less than spectacular students. Students who take very advanced classes in complex disciplines will probably hang out with highly driven, motivated and talented students. That applies to the elite and mega-selective universities as it does to the lesser known and recognized universities. Of course, the ratio of less-than-spectacular students to highly driven, motivated and talented students at a school like Harvard will be much higher than it is as some mediocre university. But to the individual students, all that matters to their learning experience are the students in their own circles. </p>
<p>What separates universities is the quality of academic institution iteself. It is impossible to measure the quality of a university, least of all statistically. That is why the concept of university rankings will always be debatable. In most circles that matter, there is a distinction between Harvard and Michigan and Duke, there is no distinction between Michigan and Duke. I do not come up with this on my own. Every single reliable source I have every seen has placed Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Stanford and Yale in a league of their own. The only US university that sometimes crosses over is Cal. Those same surveys generally group Duke and Michigan (along with several other elite institutions such as Cornell, Northwestern, Penn etc...) together.</p>
<p>Duke hands down!! got a slightly more prestige than Michigan...Also better bioengineering program at Duke</p>
<p>Thank you sunny for your enlightened remarks. Now tell me about how great the overall engineering program is at Duke. The original poster is not sure if he/she wants biomedical engineering. He/she does want to study engineering though. It's not "hands down" for Duke here.</p>
<p>BME is overrated.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Every single reliable source I have every seen has placed Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Stanford and Yale in a league of their own. The only US university that sometimes crosses over is Cal.
[/quote]
Quoted for truth...:D</p>
<p>The amount of Berkeley and Umich pro-bias on these boards is quite amazing and just like Cal, Umich's prestige and peer rankings are based off its graduate programs.</p>
<p>For Ugrad, UNC and Umich are definitely peers based on their selectivity, median/avg quantitative statistics, etc. and over 9/10 students choose Duke over UNC.</p>
<p>Undergrad:
Duke >>>>> Umich</p>
<p>Grad: Umich > Duke</p>
<p>For Ugrad, not only is the average Duke student higher in all stats, but the acceptance rate is also 23% vs. Umich's 50%.</p>
<p>Duke: SAT Critical Reading: 660 - 750<br>
SAT Math: 680 - 790
SAT Writing: 680 - 780 </p>
<p>Umich: SAT Critical Reading: 590 - 690
SAT Math: 630 - 730</p>
<p>We're ranking quality of undergrate programs, not student selectivity lifecollege guy. Vitually every rating system has Michigan over Duke for quality of undergraduate engineering. Furthermore, it is the elitist bias of people such as yourself that place Duke>>>>>U-Mich for undergrad and not the other way around. Duke and Michigan are academic peers. I suggest you reread Alexandre's comments six posts above mine.</p>
<p>no brainer- go to duke... You'd also get much smaller class sizes at duke</p>
<p>Michigan doesn't superscore, so the actual ranges should look something like this:</p>
<p>Duke: SAT Critical Reading: 660 - 750
SAT Math: 680 - 790
SAT Writing: 680 - 780 </p>
<p>Umich: SAT Critical Reading: 620 - 720
SAT Math: 650 - 750</p>
<p>"No brainer- go to duke." A thinking person might have a different opinion.</p>