Duke vs Barnard for CS - ASAP

College Search & Selection
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I was dead set on Barnard after receiving a likely back in February since I wasn’t confident about getting into Duke. Unexpectedly, I was accepted to both schools! I know they are two very different environments, but I know I will survive in both.

A few things about me:

  • I am a black girl who plans on majoring in CS, I have been in predominately white environments before, but I will be coming from a much more diverse school environment.
  • I have prior experience in CS, but I have also spent a lot of time in performance arts-based activities like theater and choir for more context on my interests.
  • Cost-wise, Barnard will be 28k with work-study and 34k without while Duke is 36k with loans included in their total, 43k without. My parents keep saying not to worry about it, but I thought this would be good to bring up.
  • I will receive a monthly stipend from the GI-Bill of $1300, but no tuition aside from the first 3-months (there’s a weird story behind this).

Barnard Pros:

  • I will be in the Science Pathways Scholars Program also known as (SP)^2.
  • I have the possibility of doing the 4 + 1 program where I could finish my bachelor’s from Barnard and receive a master’s in CS from Columbia all within 5 years.
  • It is a small-ish environment in a good way. I benefit greatly when I can get to know my peers and mentors on a closer level. I say “small-ish” because of the access to larger environments being that the school is in NYC and knowing my Columbia classes will be larger (CS especially). I guess I would say I like the appeal of having the “best of both worlds.”
  • NYC is very appealing, as I mentioned I am involved in performing arts, and those discounts to shows, museums, etc. are very appealing. I also have people I know there, so learning to get around won’t be as much of a learning curve.
  • From the outside looking in, the environment seems very collaborative and close on Barnard’s campus.

Cons:

  • 10 weeks in NYC for the first Summer is a must for those in (SP)^2. If I get an internship, I am sure I would have to dismiss myself from the program entirely unless it is research-based. I am interested in research, but it will conflate with me also wanting to pursue certain internships. I also have a sibling who needs a lot of support, so I would feel bad having to be away for so long during the summer months (granted if I did an internship, it would probably take up the same amount of time anyway.)
  • I know I shouldn’t worry about this, but I am concerned with being perceived differently as a Barnard student. I feel like this has been talked about millions of times, and I always hear that nobody actually cares, but it is still something I think about.
  • This is also something I shouldn’t worry about too much, but I worry about the possibility of missing out on a "traditional college environment.”
  • I hear Barnard’s culture is very collaborative and aims to not be stressful, but due to many of my courses being at Columbia, will that “stress culture” from there carry over anyway? Is the stress culture at Columbia even real? I’ve never been in a super competitive school environment before, most of my stress comes from my own brain.
  • Frigid Winters.

Duke Pros:

  • I get that “traditional college environment.”
  • It is in the “Tech Triangle”, and with companies like Apple and Google building in the area, it may be good for career prospects.
  • Very flexible. I hear it is easy to double major, and since I’m looking to work with CS and music or other interests like Science and Society, this is very good for me.
  • It seems like it is also very easy to get involved in research, even if I’m not in a specific program for it.
  • This is extremely arbitrary, but the name is very recognizable. My parents are raving at the fact I got into Duke.
  • There seems to be a thriving community there as well, I went to most of the BSAI events and really enjoyed it. The one professor I talked to in the CS department seemed quite nice as well, so I hope that attitude is similar to other professors there.

Cons:

  • CS is a very big major there and I learned the large class sizes are consistent throughout undergrad. I’d say I am good at making my presence known but building good relationships with my professors could still be more difficult.
  • I am not sure I’m a big fan of undergrad TA’s, perhaps someone can provide some more clarity on that. To me, that says something about the class sizes there.
  • I hear the “Duke Bubble” is a thing? I would be disappointed to hear there isn’t a lot of interaction with Durham itself.
  • Speaking of interaction, I am sure Durham is a nice city, but it is definitely quiet compared to NYC.
  • Since Greek life is more prevalent there, I’m concerned with how that may affect the social scene safety-wise. I’m also considering rushing, but I’m not exactly married to the idea of it for those reasons.
  • Every school will have plenty of clubs, but from what I’ve seen at least the more artsy side of Duke seems more minimal. This is very much a nitpick.

Sorry if this is super long, I’ve been going back and forth on this for the whole month, and I feel like my brain is going to explode. Academically, both are strong I will receive a good education either way. I think I’ve exhausted every resource I browsed and thought it would be good to just ask myself. Feel free to ask for more details on me, and please give me some clarification on things if I didn’t get something right.

Thanks for reading this far!

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Personally, I would choose Barnard. Academically, you will get a smaller, more personal environment and the 4+1. Socially, Duke is not as diverse(and has a Greek-life orientated culture) and while Barnard is less traditional it sounds like you would really enjoy NYC. I visited Duke recently and besides the basketball stadium, Durham felt very separate from the school, though that may have just been my impression. Finally, it’s cheaper, which is always a plus!

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With choices this good, you want to thrive.

First the bad news: both schools will have disappointments and rainy days- b/c, you know- life. There isn’t a single “right” or “wrong” or even “better” choice between these two.

From here, your Pros list for Barnard looks stronger / weightier than that for Duke, and the Cons list looks and lighter / less serious.

What matters isn’t the bumper sticker on your parents car. What matters is that you are in an environment where you feel that you can shine.

Take a minute to be really chuffed with yourself for having earned such great choices. Then, take a deep breath- and trust yourself.

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Based on your pros/cons, I would choose Barnard. It sounds like you will enjoy being in NYC and have more opportunities there.

You really have two great choices and you should be very proud of yourself. Good luck!

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Congrats on two awesome choices!

I taught at Barnard for several years (though not in the CS department) and want to wholeheartedly recommend the school for the undergraduate experience. You get the close-knit community of a small women’s college – tons of personal attention from professors, small classes, etc – plus you can walk across the street and benefit from the Columbia library and the other vast resources the school offers. As you note, it really is the “best of both worlds.”

At least when I taught there, Barnard had a ton of unexpected diversity, in part because religiously conservative families sent their daughters there because it was a women’s college, – I taught Orthodox Jews and Muslim women in headscarfs, first-generation college students, Dominican-American women from the Bronx, wealthy Nigerian women, and so on. Yes, still plenty of upper-middle-class white women, but the community really did feel diverse across many different vectors. And then the diverse bounty of NYC awaits right outside the Barnard gates. I don’t know if Duke could ever offer that.

It’s true that some Columbia students can say dismissive things about Barnard students (or at least that used to happen). But those same Columbia kids end up taking classes at Barnard and talking about how they wished they got such good advising and personal attention from their professors. So … let the words roll right off you.

You have a lot of negatives for Duke, and many of your negatives for Barnard you manage to dismiss yourself. Your post certainly makes it seem as if you lean Barnard with mostly the Duke brandname as the siren call to the South.

Good luck on the decision-making! You can do it!

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You may want to look into how supportive Duke is for STEM fields. I have heard from two (very different) parents of their STEM kids that the work load is very intense. One stuck with the program, and the other switched major to some social science. Both students had all the top Math/Sci/CS AP classes , top scores, etc. from top schools in NJ.

I don’t know that much about Barnard, but I do know from some math colleagues that they have a very supportive environment for women in STEM.

Both are great choices, and I am sure you will find your passion at either!

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Congrats.

I will throw in a +1 for Barnard.

Both are great options and both should leave you with a very nice, but underdetermined, set of options in four (or five) years. I suggest trying to decide where you will be happier for the next four (or five) years. You will (probably) be guessing on that as well . . . much of your college experience will come down to the friends you make in the first few months . . . but maybe it will come down to what you miss more: all of the cultural options of NYC or being warm in January. :slight_smile:

Good luck.

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This is so interesting because we have boy/girl twins: our S is going to a Duke (engineering/maybe math/CS) and our D is going to Barnard (humanities kid). I love both these schools for each child that picked it.

Our D wanted women’s empowerment and LAC, and we didn’t realize just how connected Barnard/Columbia College were, so all those resources are icing on the cake. You’re in a different field, but as far as students thinking Barnard women aren’t as good as Columbia students, the head of Columbia’s Model UN is from Barnard as is the EIC of the newspaper. They had to be picked by their peers.

Our S didn’t want a city environment and wanted the more traditional college experience with sports spirit.

These schools are so different. Just go with your heart. You can’t go wrong! Congratulations!!

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Hey there! I’m also a black woman in tech (although I studied psychology in undergrad) and I went to Columbia for graduate school, and worked at Barnard with Barnard undergrads while I was there :slight_smile: Couple of thoughts:

  • It’s actually pretty uncommon for students to get outside internships in the summer between their freshman and sophomore year. Usually, very talented/lucky students - or students in fields in which internships are very common, like CS - get one their sophomore summer, and most people do one their junior summer. At my company (I work at Microsoft) the internships for earlier students are actually relatively limited. So I don’t see 10 weeks in NYC for your first summer as a con at all. It gives you some enrichment, close ties with the others in your program, and you get to learn a little about research. College is more of a marathon than sprint; you’ve got plenty of time for internships.

  • You will be perceived differently as a Barnard student. But “different” doesn’t mean “less than.” You’ll just have a different experience than the Columbia students, and that’s okay. There’s a lot of overlap, and as long as you are satisfied with what you get out of your experience, then there’s no problem.

  • What do you mean by “traditional college environment?” I’m going to assume you mean the stereotypical Big 10 experience people tend to think of or see in media depictions of college: big sports, big Greek life, big student body. But there are 4,000+ higher education institutions in the U.S., and thus there are 4,000+ college environments. No two are alike! A small, intimate college setting is just as ‘traditional’ as a gigantic state university (actually, I’d say pedantically that it’s more traditional). Again, here what matters is what you want your college environment to look like.

  • Stress culture at Columbia is very real (but I will admit I am biased; I worked in student services at Columbia, which meant that it was my job to helped stressed students). The Barnard students I worked with were, on average, more relaxed and laid-back than the Columbia students. Since the campuses are so close and affiliated, there’s a bidirectional exchange of culture, and it really depends on who you have as friends and who you choose to spend your time with.

  • The winters aren’t that cold! You’ll get a winter coat and be just fine.

And for Duke:

  • While your introductory classes are likely to be larger (at both Duke and Columbia/Barnard), your upper-class requirements - where relationships with professors really matter - will be smaller. And you can always visit professors at office hours and foster relationships with them then; you’d be surprised how few students come to office hours.

  • Why aren’t you a fan of undergraduate TAs? That can mean a lot of different things - but undergrad TAs are literally there to assist the actual instructor, so all of your content will be delivered to you by an actual Duke professor. I was an undergrad TA (at a different college), and essentially that meant being a dedicated tutor that the students in the class could come to for support, additional help and walkthroughs, and questions. If you’re a freshman or sophomore in a basic CS class, a Duke senior is going to be well-equipped to help you through the questions you have. Think of it as extra support, not a downgrade in quality.

  • Durham’s a quieter city, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. You might be surprised at how many cultural and arts institutions a smaller city (especially a smaller city with many major universities nearby) has, and they may even be easier to access since there will be fewer people competing for the resources. Broadway shows are expensive, and there are a LOT of people in those lines for free tickets. (I once missed out on a free Janelle Monae concert because I didn’t want to go to the Bronx and and wait outside in literal 12-degree weather for 2 hours.)

  • Greek life…ah. Greek life is very different at different places. I’m not going to deny that fraternity parties can be unsafe - there’s actual data and documentation on this. However, Greek life can also be a very rewarding and enriching part of a person’s college experience - and most national orgs and universities are paying a lot more attention to teaching their collegiates how to have safer social experiences (if for no other reason than it is really expensive to insure those knuckleheads). It’s a good concern and consideration to have.

You can also rush at Barnard or Columbia if you want! Greek life is really baked into Barnard’s culture - every single member of their first graduating class in 1893 was a sorority member, and one of the NPC sororities, Alpha Omicron Pi, was actually founded at Barnard. 20% of Barnard students are Greek (Greek Life at Barnard — Bold. Beautiful. Barnard.).

Anyway, I agree with the others that you seem to have strong pros for Barnard, so I’d go there if I were you. Congrats on having two really strong choices!

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AFAIK, Barnard does NOT have sororities, however, Barnard students CAN join Columbia’s sorority.

Would you have a source for that figure? The article from 2019 that you cited only states “about 25% of undergrads across Barnard and Columbia are in a Greek organization”. So this number might be a total of male and female students, and would include fraternities - so there is no way to say how large (or possibly: small) the sorority participation actually is by Barnard woman?

I never specifically asked my daughter about it, but it also was never mentioned, nor did she ever mention it about any of her friends or various suite mates - so I do wonder how “low-key” Greek life might be (regardless how relevant they had been 100 years ago.)

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By whom possibly? As far as fellow students - there’ll be CC students taking classes at Barnard and vice versa. You’ll be using the gym, dining halls and libraries at Columbia U, next to students from the other undergraduate colleges, because maybe you happen to like the menu or layout, or maybe it happens to be close to your next class. Likewise, male and female students from CC will use Barnard facilities for the same reason.
IF someone WANTED to make an effort to perceive some students differently, they first would have to know which of the undergraduate schools someone attends - how? So, as you have already learned elsewhere, it’s a non-issue.
It’s quite normal for Barnard students to serve in the leadership of Columbia Clubs / organizations, right next to CC students.
I can tell you that my daughter, by chance, has more friends from Columbia College than from Barnard - and thus her choice of suite-mates have been mostly Columbia, and she is active in Columbia clubs. If there was any kind of “attitude”, none of this would have happened.

Can there be “friendly ribbing” - certainly. Just like BMW, Mercedes and Audi owners might rib each other’s brand, while thoroughly enjoying their beers together at a backyard barbecue.

My daughter chooses her classes from the course catalogue based on professor, preferred time-of-day (not an early riser), avoiding scheduling conflicts - and ideally keeping one day “free”. The question whether it happens to meet at Columbia in that semester, or at Barnard, is not factor at all. Either way, there’ll be a mix of CC and Barnard students anyway.
Ultimately, YOU control the stress level. If you indulge in last-minute, late-night writing of papers, then this will create stress. If you make a conscious effort in your time management, then it will be less stressful.

My daughter had been worried about precisely that, thus was very hesitant to commit to Barnard - in fact, she slowly eliminated every other accepted college until Barnard still stared her in the face. She went to the accepted student day and met other students, quickly realizing how well they all related to one another, how they had similar attitudes, and that her future peers were not any more competitive than herself.

Anyway WHO/WHAT would your fellow student be competing FOR. Once you have managed to be accepted into a highly-selective school, your results will solely be YOUR results - regardless what the person next to you might do. While my daughter had fun classes, and challenging classes, and some professors that were great educators, and others that were just “presenters”, requiring “self-study”, “competition” was not a factor that she ever brought up.

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i think Duke is better than Barnard for CS because the alumni connections and department size of CS is bigger at Duke. Barnard is preferred for humanities not science

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Barnard. Your pros are much more convincing than your pros for Duke.

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You have two great options.

Duke has amazing support for women in STEM. In addition to that support, they have a Learning Living Community(LLC) for women. They also have co-ed LLC’s for STEM and the Arts.

Nasher Museum of Art is also on site, with regular collaborations with students.

NYC is also super expensive to be in. If your heart is set on NYC though, Barnard would be the way to go since that environment can’t be replicated.

edited to add just as someone would tell a non-black student “if they are ok going to an HBCU”, I am going to ask if you are ok going to a PWI. One of my nieces went to a PWI for graduate school, she said she only seen one other black girl, ultimately she left the school because it was too isolating. I don’t think you’ll have that problem with Barnard, especially the city it is in, but I am glad you are thinking about it.

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