<p>I don't get what you mean about people applying to Cal. How does that make students not as strong? The numbers are by who actually goes there, not who applied or who got in. And Cal needs more applicants to be as "selective" as Duke because it's bigger. I just don't see what you're saying.</p>
<p>Duke has better focus on undergrads (a much bigger endowment per student, more concentration on undergrad, more grants, etc), better recruiting (more elite firms take students from Duke), a better reputation, stronger alumni (smaller private schools tend to have more loyal alumni for many reasons), and is a more "cohesive" educational experience in my book. I would choose it easily over Cal if money weren't an issue. If finances are an issue and you want to live in the bay area after college go to Cal.</p>
<p>I would attend Duke for undergrad over Berkeley.</p>
<p>Right now, I'm leaning towards Duke. I want to go far away for College, and Berkeley doesn't provide that (it's a mere BART ride away). Also, the post warblersrule made about the strong science programs at Duke make Duke an even more appealing choice. However, I won't be able to visit Duke since I can't afford to. If by some chance I get accepted, will Duke help pay for a visit?</p>
<p>Duke vs Berkeley,</p>
<p>If you want to go to a better department with smartest faculty, Berkeley is clearly a better choice.</p>
<p>"Acceptance rate is a pretty bad indicator. California is the biggest state in the country, so naturally its premiere state school has a mass of applicants. Look at the actual student strength: Duke students are significantly stronger than Cal students."</p>
<p>The stats for Berkeley have been pulled down by Cali applicants. The truth is, Berkeley is (as selective or) MORE selective than Duke for OOS and International applicants. </p>
<p>I would pick Berkeley without a doubt. It's probably the best school in the world.</p>
<p>Vangie, Cal is the best school in the world for research in its grad programs, but definetely not for undergrad. Not by a long shot. Duke is completely superior to Cal for undergrad. Its students are stronger and go onto better grad programs even in absolute numbers despite Duke being much smaller. We are talking about undergrad here - if you say Cal is comparable to Duke you are obviously short-changing people seeking real advice.</p>
<p>Duke continues to attract top quality undergrads, among the best in the nation, whereas Cal continues to lag behind in undergrad. For example, in the Class of 09 Duke had 117 National Merit scholars (6th most in nation) whereas Cal had 50. Considering California is the biggest state and Cal has a much larger student body, this just shows that Duke students are stronger on average. </p>
<p>Duke's SAT average is over 100 points higher than Cal too (if 100 doesn't seem like alot, MIT's average scores are only 30-40 points higer than Duke, HYPS have scores about 30 points higher than Duke). On average, it certinaly seems Duke students are smarter (or atleast better at SAT taking lol).</p>
<p>In the past two decades, Duke is only behind Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford in total number of Rhodes, Marshall, Truman, and Goldwater scholarships with 123. Cal, despite being much larger, still lags behind Duke in that. So, looking at three quantitative things - SAT scores, National Merit Scholars, and the most prestigious awards for undergrads, Duke is much better than Cal in all of these. Saying Cal is comparable to Duke in terms of undergrad quality is laughable and is basically spreading an ill-informed point of view (same goes for comparing it to any other top private school).</p>
<p>If we were talking about grad school it would be a different story, but for an undergrad Duke is certainly the way to go - atleast, its the way to go if you are looking for the school with the brightest students, most opportunities, and best reputation for having talented undergrads.</p>
<p>"Its students are brighter, stronger, and go onto better grad programs even in absolute numbers despite Duke being much smaller."</p>
<p>I don't think you can say that so unequivocally, nor can anyone else.</p>
<p>"if you say Cal is comparable to Duke you are obviously short-changing people seeking real advice."</p>
<p>Your opinion. Cal is an excellent school for undergrad too, you know. The OP would be in great hands at either place.</p>
<p>thethoughtprocess,</p>
<p>education is suppose to give you brighter future... I wonder how Duke would give that better than Berkeley. In fact, I have known more successful people who have gone to Berkeley than Duke...</p>
<p>I'm not from America, and you may not like what I'm going to say... Duke does not appeal that much in our country when compared to Berkeley/Harvard/MIT/Stanford...</p>
<p>What country would you happen to be from, vangie?</p>
<p>Berkeley definitely has the upper-hand in international recognition, but I don't think the OP plans to move outside the US any time soon.</p>
<p>Duke seems to be more "brighter" in terms of undergrads, at least from the statistics and awards. As a public school, Berkeley's standards for admitting undergrads aren't as high as a prestigious private school.</p>
<p>kyledavid, I CAN say unequivocally that Duke sends more students to top law, med, and business schools than Cal. </p>
<p>Vangie, whatever, I don't think the OP cares much about the opinions of every day people in Asia who only hear about schools with elite grad programs. It sounds to me he's planning on going to work in America. In that case, Duke. I'd also suggest Penn, Dartmouth, and Brown as other similar schools to apply to.</p>
<p>"What country would you happen to be from, vangie?"</p>
<p>I'm a Singaporean currently studying in the Philippines as an international exchange student.</p>
<p>"Berkeley definitely has the upper-hand in international recognition, but I don't think the OP plans to move outside the US any time soon."</p>
<p>I hope not ... but in case he/she does, then s/he should pick Berkeley as it is considered a superior school to Duke. And who knows what holds for him/her in teh future... there are plenty of opportunities for US educated people all over Asia as the Asian economy is getting bigger and stronger... </p>
<p>"Duke seems to be more "brighter" in terms of undergrads, at least from the statistics and awards."</p>
<p>I would agree, but that's because Berkeley accepts most of its applicants from California who generally have weaker stats... but if you compare the stats of Duke vs Berkeley OOS and International students, then you would have a more or less equal stats... don't you agree? </p>
<p>Now, I'm not contesting if you say there are students at Berkeley with "weaker" stats... sure there are. but they're Cali residents... and Berkeley was made for them, in the first place... though they seem to outnumber the OOS and International students (who mostly have stats comparable to Harvard/CalTech/MIT students), I don't see how they're being in Berkeley affects the standard of the school ... or, how Berkeley's capacity to educate its students would diminish simply because it accepts in-state students with a little bit lower SAT scores... In other words, going to a school with a slightly weaker SAT score average ... would NOT diminish your future opportunities or make your IQ shrink... especially if the school you'll be attending is considered PRESTIGIOUS. And like I said, I have known more Berkeley grads (OOS and International) who eventually became successful in life than Duke grads or even ivy league grads... </p>
<p>If you're really good, say a "Harvard" material... you will excel whichever school you will attend. And if you agree that Duke is slightly considered better by virtue of having a slightly higher SAT average... then that wouldn't make Berkeley a bad school to attend, correct?</p>
<p>“Vangie, whatever, I don't think the OP cares much about the opinions of every day people in Asia who only hear about schools with elite grad programs. It sounds to me he's planning on going to work in America. In that case, Duke. I'd also suggest Penn, Dartmouth, and Brown as other similar schools to apply to.”</p>
<p>Don’t say "whatever" in a serious discussion like this one. That’s very childish…</p>
<p>Let me ask you a question... How sure are you that s/he would NOT accept offers from top corps where s/he will be assigned outside of the US?</p>
<p>In case s/he’s interested to know, it’s not surprising to meet people manning investment firms/blue chips corps or even IT related start ups… in Asia who are grads of top US/UK schools like Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, MIT, Cambridge, oxford, Warwick, LSE and Yale. A lot of bankers in Hong Kong/Singapore/Tokyo/Shanghai are American/British Caucasians. How sure are you that he/she sticks to the norms when he/she has more lucrative offers outside of the US? Though the opportunities for such employment may be relatively smaller/fewer... the probability is still there. and in case such thing happens to him/her, his/her Berkeley degree (yes, undergrad degree) which he/she will get it for a fraction of a cost..., btw... would be a big booster for him/her then.</p>
<p>You make good points Vangie. The Asian economy is on the rise, and globalization is occurring at an ever-increasing rate. A Berkeley degree would definitely help if you are planning to go into business or investment. </p>
<p>One of the complaints people have about Berkeley is that its student pool is watered down by transfer students and in-state students. They're obviously given priority. Berkeley is (exaggeration) 99% in-state students, so it would be a stretch to say that OOS/international students bolster the student body to the level of an ivy or Duke, in this case.</p>
<p>Did you just tell me to not use the word "whatever" because this discussion is serious? Are you kidding me? The discussion stopped being serious when you started pretending Cal was as good as Duke based on a few people you know who live in Singapore.</p>
<p>First off, I'm here to tell you that the people who think that Berkeley is a superior school compared to Duke for undergrad really don't matter. Trust me. The average person in China or Hong Kong or Singapore doesn't matter in the corporate world. A corporate recruiter who knows anything about anything would know Duke students are top notch. "Globalization" is something that is important to the corporate world these days...however, I'm sure that as the world gets more globalized, corporations in Asia will at some point hear about Duke (ranked top 10 US News, top 15 THES, top 10 on WSJ, plenty of CEOs went there, etc etc etc). In fact, I'm almost certain not many undergrads from Duke OR Cal are planning on working in Asia unless they were from there to begin with. Either way, on THES (a global ranking) Duke has a higher corporate recruitment rating than Berkeley - which means international companies like Duke grads better than Berkeley grads. </p>
<p>Bottom line - corporations recruit from the top schools in the country, and that includes Duke. These top bulge bracket firms are the ones with the most international reach. You mentioned banking, for example. Duke alumn are plentiful among the top banking firms (GS, Morgan Stanley, ML). These firms have international reach. Most American kids aren't looking to work for Asian financial firms, when American firms in the firstplace dominate world banking (arguably European firms are up there, I personally don't think so). </p>
<p>Berkeley undergrads are not as talented as Duke undergrads on average. I mean, thats just a fact. If you want to argue that Berkeley has "international prestige" and thats why you think the OP should go there over Duke, thats not well-thought-out advice.</p>
<p>See, I love arguing with people like you. You think that since the people you are around like Berkeley, Berkeley is a great school and better than Duke. I'm here to tell you that the college views of the average person in Singapore doesn't matter. Duke is clearly a superior choice for the OP - surrounded by smarter students, smaller classes, more individual attention, more prestigious awards, better med-school acceptance rates and better admissions into top professional programs.. </p>
<p>How can you ignore how inferior Berkeley's undergrad is in terms of student strength and feeding rates to Duke? You ignore all the empirical data I've provided and instead offer an anecdote - "oh well I know a bunch of Cal people who are more succesful than Duke people." That is laughable at best. Maybe alot of Duke grads don't go to Signapore..I don't know, and I don't care, the fact is your argument that Cal students are more succesful is completely useless. I mean, I've shown you facts - collegeboard.com, NMST, and WSJ all verify that Duke is completely superior to Cal in undergrad. Your response is that Berkeley has some "international prestige" going for it - I mean, where I live (outside NYC), the average people thinks Duke is one of the best schools in the nation (which it is). These same people have never heard of Cal aside from their upset of USC. Do these people matter? No. What matters is people familiar with top schools, and clearly the people you are around in Signapore are not if they don't know about Duke. Should they be familiar with Duke? No, no need to be. But does their opinion matter? No.</p>
<p>Well said ttp.</p>
<p>“Did you just tell me to not use the word "whatever" because this discussion is serious? Are you kidding me? The discussion stopped being serious when you started pretending Cal was as good as Duke based on a few people you know who live in Singapore.”</p>
<p>I was NOT at all pretending when I said Berkeley is superior to Duke. Berkeley’s overall superiority to Duke is a known fact. And my sources are not just “few” but many and they’re omnipresent. People in Europe would consider Berkeley a superior school to Duke. I have been to the Middle East and they think the same thing too. In Africa, Berkeley is known as the best alternative to Harvard/Oxford/Cambridge and stand on an equal status with MIT/Stanford/Yale/LSE. Many people outside the US have not heard of Duke. </p>
<p>Let me tell something which perhaps you’re not aware of. Duke has an extension in Singapore. It offers MBA program with a local partner school. Despite that, people in Singapore still don’t think Duke’s undergrad stands on equal status with Harvard/Yale/Princeton and still NOT considered superior to Berkeley/Stanford/MIT. In fact, most people would rather go to other ivies (the lesser known ones) if they have the stat to go to Duke. </p>
<p>*First off, I'm here to tell you that the people who think that Berkeley is a superior school compared to Duke for undergrad really don't matter. Trust me. The average person in China or Hong Kong or Singapore doesn't matter in the corporate world. A corporate recruiter who knows anything about anything would know Duke students are top notch.
"Globalization" is something that is important to the corporate world these days...however, I'm sure that as the world gets more globalized, corporations in Asia will at some point hear about Duke (ranked top 10 US News, top 15 THES, top 10 on WSJ, plenty of CEOs went there, etc etc etc). In fact, I'm almost certain not many undergrads from Duke OR Cal are planning on working in Asia unless they were from there to begin with. Either way, on THES (a global ranking) Duke has a higher corporate recruitment rating than Berkeley - which means international companies like Duke grads better than Berkeley grads. Bottom line - corporations recruit from the top schools in the country, and that includes Duke. These top bulge bracket firms are the ones with the most international reach. You mentioned banking, for example. Duke alumn are plentiful among the top banking firms (GS, Morgan Stanley, ML). These firms have international reach. Most American kids aren't looking to work for Asian financial firms, when American firms in the firstplace dominate world banking (arguably European firms are up there, I personally don't think so).” *</p>
<p>I don’t see how this comment makes Berkeley an inferior school to Duke. </p>
<p>“Berkeley undergrads are not as talented as Duke undergrads on average. I mean, thats just a fact. If you want to argue that Berkeley has "international prestige" and thats why you think the OP should go there over Duke, thats not well-thought-out advice.”</p>
<p>I wasn’t saying that Berkeley’s undergrad is superior to Duke in the US. And so far, I have only told you 2 things yet.
1. Berkeley’s name carries more weight outside of the US… and if the OP decides to work outside of the US someday, his/her Berkeley diploma will give him/her a big booster. You can say some people outside of the US know of Duke. But don’t kid yourself and say that Duke is considered more prestigious than Berkeley outside of the US. Mind you, they’re not even seen equal. And,
2. Berkeley’s undergrad is NOT INFERIOR, or as you put it, “not as talented as Duke undergrads”. I think that’s just absurd. If we have to base our assessment on your line of thinking, then we could say that Duke undergrad students/graduates are not as talented as Stanford/Yale students/graduates. Don’t you think that’s absurd? They’re both selective schools only that Harvard has a higher SAT/GPA stats.</p>
<p>Vangie, I think you just didn't understand my two major points, so I'll write them in a more simple way:
- The opinions of people in Signapore don't really matter for kids in America. At all. Sorry. Same with most people in Asia or pretty much anywhere, since average people there are only familiar with big American schools with huge grad programs. Duke is not in that category. I'm certain corporate recruiters are well-aware of Duke's strength, since it was rated as a top 15 place for global corporate recruitment in the world by the LONDON Times. Are you just ignoring that?
- If you think Berkeley undergrad is as good as Duke undergrad, you obviously haven't seen any data about either school and are just making things up.</p>
<p>Here are some sources to make you more familiar with Duke, since I think your problem is a lack of real knowledge and an overreliance on anecdotal evidence which you obviously place way too much faith in:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.collegeboard.com%5B/url%5D">www.collegeboard.com</a>
Search for Berkeley and Duke, see for yourself which school attracts stronger students. Apparently the brighter kids aren't heeding the advice of the Signaporeans and are choosing Duke over Cal!</p>
<p><a href="http://wsjclassroom.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://wsjclassroom.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf</a>
Admittedly, Cal is very good for a public school (ranked 41st). But Duke is in the top 10, right below Stanford, tied with Columbia, Dartmouth, and even above Cornell and Penn. This is very important for undergrads to consider, especially one who is Premed like the OP.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nationalmerit.org/05_annual%20report.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.nationalmerit.org/05_annual%20report.pdf</a>
Go to the bottom to see how Cal lags behind Duke in National Merit Scholars. I mean, considering Cali is the biggest state, and Berkeley is the top state school for Cali, its suprising Duke wins in this category. Duke is ahead of many other schools also.</p>
<p>For what its worth, I do believe on average Yale and Harvard students are more talented than the average Duke students (SATs are 30 points higher, 90% more national merit scholars proportionally, ranked 1st and 2nd versus 9th on feeder rankings). But Duke students are on average more talented than Cal students (SATs are 110 points higher on average, over 400% more national merit scholars proportionally, ranked 9th on feeder rankings versus 41st.)</p>
<p>Again, I emphasize, the opinions of people in Asia on what the best school in America DOES NOT MATTER. Here are some other great schools in America that people around the world haven't heard of: Penn (ranked 30th on global rankings, Dartmouth (ranked below 80th on global rankings, and Brown (ranked below 60th on global rankings). Duke is ranked in the top 15 on these same rankings. Yet I would not say Duke is better than Penn, Brown, or Dartmouth, since the student bodies are very close in strength. This leads again to my final point - everyday people around the world are entitled to their opinions, but they DO NOT MATTER. </p>
<p>What matters is opinions in the corporate world and in America where most people live, and in America no one besides disgruntled Cali residents on CC think that Berkeley is equal to Brown, Penn, Dartmouth, or Duke for undergrad.</p>
<p>I'm sorry my friends but Duke is not better than Berkeley not in undergrad not in grad...You guys have a "USNEWS Rank" disease ...Duke is not a top 10 school..It is very good but not top 10 ...But i think the Op should decide only based on fit since both schools are very good.</p>
<p>"What matters is opinions in the corporate world and in America where most people live, and in America no one besides disgruntled Cali residents on CC think that Berkeley is equal to Brown, Penn, Dartmouth, or Duke for undergrad."YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!!DO YOUR RESEARCH...I WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOME DATA THAT PROVE YOUR STATEMENT.</p>