Name some such specialties that top companies such as Google and Facebook don’t hire CS grads without specialized training.
What are some example subfields that someone can’t learn on their own? Distributed Systems? Machine Learning? We are talking about undergrad level, right? There isn’t really anything you can’t learn on your own. CS is different from other majors in this respect.
Sure. USNews ranking has many problems, but lots of employers go by their ranking as a starting point, because imperfect as it is, it is better than other ranking lists. Cornell is #5 on USNews undergrad CS ranking, Duke is #25. (And here’s an example of how messed up USNews ranking is: Pomona College, a top LAC is #71, UC RiverSide, which is not one of the better UCs, is #52.)
I am not going by USNews ranking alone, but it is the only one I can share.
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/computer-science-overall
Speaking strictly in terms of CS, I do believe Cornell is stronger than Duke in terms of academic offerings and quality of instruction. Duke is a great school, even in CS, but not what you would call a CS powerhouse. That’s reserved for only a few institutions and Duke, while high up, just isn’t that high up on the CS list. However, OP, I think you would be happier at Duke. You are obviously concerned about the weather (a legit concern for some people), which is not great at Cornell. Housing isn’t the greatest there either, and Ithaca is not that easy to get to. There’s not too much to do off-campus unless you’re a nature enthusiast. It seems you would start your time at Cornell with worry and stress from the get-go. If it was my kid and they were committed to CS, I think I would hope they’d choose Cornell over Duke but I’d have to rethink that if the anxiety and doubt seemed overwhelming.
I have never heard of an employer using USNews rankings. Where did you get this from? The main users of USNews rankings are high school kids and their parents who are trying to compare schools. Colleges care about them because the students they are trying to attract use them. I have never heard of an employer looking at them.
Google and Facebook hire different people for their different departments and pay them differently. Have you looked at whom Google Brain hires?
Theorectically, perhaps. Take machine learning, for example. Taking an Andrew Ng’s machine learning course on Coursera isn’t nearly the same thing as a set of more in-depth courses and research opportunities at a top program.
I am watching this thread and paying careful attention to all of your comments, and also discussing it with my parents. It is very helpful to me to hear all these considerations and I really appreciate it a lot. I am still finding the decision hard and feel right on the fence. Decision is due very soon. I hope it’s ok if I ask questions as I think of them. Here’s one question that occurs to me as I read your last few comments:
As of now I know basic topics I want to learn, which are offered at both schools. There are also some more esoteric topics that sound interesting that I could see exploring. But as of now I really am not sure what I want to do, and I know that your interests can develop over time as you learn more. I’m not sure about a master’s, but I definitely don’t imagine myself seeking a phD. I think it’s more likely I’ll want to get a job. If I found a couple of years from now that there were any topics of significant interest to me that were not offered at my college, wouldn’t I be able to take a couple of classes over the summer? I live near New York City so schools are around.
Actually right now I’m considering a minor or double major in math.
OP, if I can make a suggestion:
Google “Duke CS Double Major LinkedIn”. You will see some of the internships and jobs that actual Duke double major CS students have landed. If you are considering math then make your search even more specific: “Duke CS Math Double Major LinkedIn.”
Do another Google search with “Cornell CS Major LinkedIn”.
Clearly this isn’t a scientific study, but it is interesting to see what current students and graduates are doing.
Good luck sorting things out!
So you have used a ranking that has no evidence of being taken seriously by software dev employers, and then extrapolated that to arbitrarily define tiers of employability? Using faulty data is bad enough (you yourself admitted that it is not a great ranking), but making unverifiable assumptions on the data (that software dev employers pay much heed to US News specifically), and then making arbitrary classifications on top of that (coming up with tiers arbitrarily based on rank), takes it to another level.
OP - your post-bacc employment prospects are going to be virtually the same at either school. Cornell takes the edge if you are looking for a broader selection of coursework, or are seeking exposure to niche areas in CS, or performing substantial CS research as an undergrad. Duke takes the edge for school spirit and balance in the typical way of seeing collegiate balance (social life outside of academics, sports scene, time for nonacademic extracurriculars, etc.). You got two great choices, and you can’t go wrong either way in terms of employability. This is a decision that comes down to finances and fit.
P.S.
FWIW, as someone who works in computing, and in a “niche” area (Machine Learning), I think people put too much weight on CS department specifics at the undergrad level. That’s just my opinion, and others in similar positions may disagree. However, I think you really ought to consider what I said above the line.
You are assuming that’s what I did.
I can tell you though that even employers have to start somewhere, and USNews is a starting point. On top of that they use their past experience, such as interview-to-offer ratios.
I agree with your conclusion paragraph though.
Again where are you getting this from? Have you worked as a hiring manager? Or are you just making it up because you assume it must be true? What is your experience in this area?
Hiring managers don’t make these sorts of decisions. Big companies have college recruiting teams who feed candidates to hiring managers. I am not making any of this up, but I can’t post any evidence, sorry.
Why not? We’re not asking you to name companies. Just to describe the process (which really wouldn’t be a trade secret) as well as your experience.
You do realize that your credibility isn’t terribly high when you simply state “I can’t post any evidence” and fail to state your experience, right? Especially since there are a lot of posters on this forum who work(ed) in the tech industry, including some in tech recruiting, and I daresay a lot of us are skeptical of your claims that companies first start with the US News CS rankings to decide where to recruit.
OP, I posted a link to a Duke CS person talking about Duke CS, so very scientific, below! Google also has an office in Chapel Hill. Duke is in the Research Triangle. Yes, you will find less Duke CS grads on linked in because Duke has a much smaller undergrad population than Cornell (another plus). And, if you’re thinking of CS/math, it sounds like you’re interested in more than just CS, as you said. I really believe Duke supports interdisciplinary learning.
It sounds like your instincts are telling you that you like the vibe of Duke better, but you’re worried that you won’t get as good of a job out of Duke as out of Cornell. No one here can tell you what job you’ll get, but I can guarantee you that many CS, engineering, etc. majors picked Duke over Cornell, despite the major-specific rankings. The equally unscientific Parchment shows 79% Duke vs 21% Cornell. Why would students do this if they would be under-employed? If you were already a big CS person, looking for a certain niche, without anxiety and other concerns, Cornell would be calling you (or Georgia Tech or MIT).
Please pick the school where you will be most happy.
Here is the link of “unscientific” parchment cross admission choice data.
There was a New York Times article in 2014 to discuss the parchment data. The data is mainly from mid-west and CA of more than 100K students. If you choose Duke in the interactive selection “Choose a school to see which other schools students preferred”, it shows that of the cross admissions between Cornell and Duke, 20% (4 out of 20) chose Cornell over Duke back in 2014. With more data now, the Parchment data shows 21% chose Cornell over Duke, so I would say the data is pretty consistent over the years.
to be fair - this isn’t adjusted by major
Hey, thanks for asking. Seriously one of the hardest decisions I’ve ever made…and made at the last possible hour. I was really torn, but I went with Duke. I know Cornell’s program is much more highly ranked and that brings incredible opportunities. I know some would consider me foolish. But I spoke with a number of stressed-out, overwhelmed cs students on campus, and I was dreading that, the anxiety , and the cold and snow. I really felt better at Duke, I felt good on the campus, people were happier and it just felt more right.
I was also kind of affected by the news of the Cornell suicide.
On D day I found two people to talk with They were recent Duke CS grads. They were really positive, had loved the program, felt it prepared them really well for careers, and had landed really good jobs. They talked specifics about the program. I’m thinking now of double majoring in cs and math. Those discussions helped a lot, as did this whole thread! I’m very appreciative! Thank you!
Congrats on your decision!
Congrats on making a very difficult decision!!
Wishing you happiness!