DUKE vs. DARTMOUTH?? May 1st is around the corner!

Parents Forum
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<p>Sybbie, you seems to always have good arguments, but can you clarify this one:
"There are also comments about the crunch granolas, drunken frat boys, preppies,etc. But guess what? You are going to find them at almost every school in the country (barring the highly religious ones as even the schools with no Greek presence are not at a loss for drunks)."</p>

<p>While what you said is true, the question is do Dartmouth kids drink more excessively than kids in other schools? Even in some popular cultures, the Dartmouth drinking was mentioned. (like the Simpsons, "drinking like a Dartmouth boy")</p>

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<p>Just to be clear on those yield numbers above, part (not all) of Dartmouth's apparent 9% yield advantage over Duke is due to the fact that Dartmouth accepts a slightly greater portion of its class ED than Duke does -- 34% vs. 28.7%. For last year's class, the yield numbers for RD decisions were Dartmouth 41%, Duke 34% (35% for non-engineering students). </p>

<p>Duke gets 50% more applications than Dartmouth (21,000 vs. 14,000 last year), but because its class size is a little more than 50% bigger, it attracts ever-so-slightly fewer applications per slot (12.3 vs. 12.7).</p>

<p>I don't think you can use those numbers to make much of an argument that Dartmouth is meaningfully more popular with applicants than Duke.</p>

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<p>sybbie,
That was a great post and really so much better than the commonly posted statement in favor of Dartmouth than reads something like "come here because we do a better job than ABC College of placing our students into investment banking and management consulting." Ugh!</p>

<p>Personally, I'd probably pick Duke but I appreciate the folks from Dartmouth and their devotion to their college and the strong commitment that the school has to undergraduate education. Good luck to the OP and have a great four years wherever you end up.</p>

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<p>One of the reasons that there is not one obvious choice is that Duke students feel about Duke much the way that Dartmouth students feel about Dartmouth.</p>

<p>Duke also does a great job of welcoming the incoming students and their families. The opportunities that are present for collaboration, research, internships, employment, etc. are fantastic. The classes are demanding, and the students work and study together. Fraternity parties on campus are open to the entire student body, so choosing whether to go Greek does not have the same social implications that it might elsewhere. If you had asked me, I would have sworn that our S would never camp out in a tent for 6 weeks to get a free ticket to a basketball game. That was before he became a Dukie. The other 11 students in his "tent" (actually 2 tents) are now fast, and probably lifelong-friends.</p>

<p>Bottom line: Duke is a wonderful place. And I have no doubt that the same can be said for Dartmouth.</p>

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<p>Professor101 - regarding your question, you know, its hard to know if Dartmouth kids really do drink more than others - certainly you have to consider what "Animal House" did to perpetuate that stereotype long into history - surely students drink at D, sounds like they might drink excessively at many schools. But consider this very recent post by a student trying to decide between Dartmouth and another IVY which has a very different stereotype- see especially item 7:</p>

<p>"I really really really want to love XXXXXXX but after going to dartmouth's dimensions I have become to question some things. First of all, I learned so much more at Dartmouth's dimensions and this has led me to question XXXXXXX's ability to promote and organize (the latter being a big problem at XXXXXXX). So here are my questions:
1. Dartmouth makes traveling abroad so easy and is even wiling to pay for most of it. Is this similar at XXXXXXX? are there language requirements to go?
2. I loved Dartmouth's political discussion. There were many different views and they seemed to be respected and not immediately rejected. Is XXXXXXX's political discussion as one-sided as it seems? Is there an republican political undercurrent at all?
3. School unity at Dartmouth was amazing. People honestly loved their school. Although i stayed a shorter time at XXXXXXX, I did not get the same sense of unity. Is this a wrong interpretation?
4. Dartmouth seems to have many programs for freshmen bonding (ie the five day camping trip and sophomore summer). Does XXXXXXX have similar programs?
5. Will XXXXXXX match Dartmouth's financial aid? There was an XXXX difference which could have a big impact on my admission. Also, if they can match this descion will they only match it for freshman year or will they continue to set the lower bar.
6. XXXXXXX's freshmen dorms that i stayed in weren't that great. Do they get better as the you get older. Are apartments available?
7. What is XXXXXXX's social scene like? Is it a bunch of kids drinking and being promiscuous (which was my impression when i visited)? My host came back to the dorms drunk and had a late nite "visitor" (if you get my drift)"</p>

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<p>I had meant to add, but too late to include in the post above, that School XXXXX is clearly not just about drinking and being promiscusous. Nor is Dartmouth just about drinking - I am afraid that I sense many colleges are a lot about excessive drinking. </p>

<p>Dartmouth is also not really "conservative" (yet another tag applied to it in an effort to distinguish it from other schools), even if the conservative minority enjoys a voice on campus. The vast majority of students do NOT identify as conservative. No school is a narrow as these tags that, even if once apt, are dated. People need to try to distinguish one school from another, but stereotypes are sometimes perpetuated long past the point of validity - if they ever were. Shools the size of Duke and Dartmouth, while not very large, are certainly large enough to accomodate a lot of different preferences and points of view. If you have visited a school and liked for a number of reasons, if you can picture yourself happy there based on what you have seen - especially if it is the school that you keep coming back to, don't discount it based on stereotypes - or at least, consider them in context.</p>

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<p>JHS,
This year the number is 20337 for 1600 (duke) vs. 16536 for 1100 (Dartmouth).</p>

<p>ohmadre,
I agree that it's diffcult to determine a school's drinkingness and sterotyping is not good. On a scale of 1 to 10, if drinking for an average school is 5, I won't mind if Dartmouth has a 6 or 7, but a 10 would be too much. Again there is probably no way to tell whether it's a 6 or a 10.</p>

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<p>Professor: </p>

<p>I think the 'scale' is all relative. I've known kids at ASU, for example, that start off school days with Bloody Mary's.....</p>

<p>There is no doubt that ALL of the schools with a work hard/party hard rep do just that. In contrast, there are many LACs that don't.</p>

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<p>Professor101:
Re: excessive drinking at Dartmouth, my son is a '10 and a member of a fraternity, and I truly believe that he imbibes less than his buddies at UVA, Miami of Ohio or SMU. Alcohol is omnipresent on most campuses and it is up to the individual to decide his or her limits. I think for some Dartmouth kids, drinking is a 10, for others it's a 2 and for the majority...5-6.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
^^drunk kids die too, ya know. Every year. Alcohol poisoning.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well actually, menloparkmom, while the implicit implication is that Dartmouth kids drink a lot, the explicit explication is that Dartmouth hasn't had an alcohol related death in a very very long time.</p>

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<p>^^^??? I was responding to this juvenile post:
"A big U student just got killed outside his school. I'd rather have a drunk kid than a dead one".
I didn't say there had been an alcohol related death at Dartmouth in any time frame. But it does happen every year at colleges around the country.</p>

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<p>Blue and runmanstl,
Thanks for sharing your stories and these will help us make a informed decision. I agree, drinking is a individual thing though peer pressure could play a role.</p>

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<p>Sybbie's post about the Dartmouth culture was wonderful! Here's a past post of a Duke senior site regarding her journey and experiences through 4 years at Duke that I thought was very moving:</p>

<p>"i got to duke a little anxious and uncertain of my experience. from the second i moved into campus, i knew i had made the right choice. every kid i met moving into east (all freshmen- to date, it's one of my favorite duke experiences) was fantastic. everyone was eager to know everyone else, everyone was fascinating, interesting, charismatic, fun. the upperclassmen we met (sure we were girls and they were frat boys) were accomodating, and went beyond just getting us a beer but would check up on us during the week to make sure we were happy with our classes and aware of fun social events. and this is why i love duke students as much as i do -- we're smart kids, but we're also FUN kids. we will work hard all day and all week, but over the weekends, we kick back and have a great time (whether its through frat parties or clubs or bars, or if that's not your scene, movies and shows and tons of other events on campus). both things really matter to us. my best friends from my freshman year dorm have become super close again recently, and we've been reminiscing about the past and just still loving our memories and making new ones.</p>

<p>my classes have been fantastic. i came into duke looking to study one thing (international relations w/ the intent to go to law school) and am leaving doing something completely different-- something i never would have thought for had it not been for engaging, caring professors who took the time to get to know me as a person (not just a student in their class) and help me find things like courses, majors, internships and ultimately jobs that would allow me to continue with my passions that as an incoming freshman, i didn't know i had. this semester i have two professors who went to duke, entered the business world in various capacities, made a ton of money and a huge difference internationally, and are now back at duke since it's their favorite place in the world and they want to make a difference to us. i have learned so much about practical business applications, life as a duke grad and in the "real world" and about having a career from these people and find that even as a second semester senior, my education is still relevant, worthwhile and entirely worth getting up and going to class for.</p>

<p>as for the people, i have met my best friends in the entire world at duke. these are people i trust with my life, who i can have a great time with studying in the library for finals or sitting around my apartment making breakfast or going to shooters. i joined a sorority, which was something i definitely was not intending on doing when applying to colleges, and this past recruitment at our pref night ceremony (basically where all the seniors sit around and share how much it meant to them) i surprised everying by BAWLING my eyes out since i can't imagine my life without these girls or my college experience without them.</p>

<p>i love duke for its traditions -- from freshmen living on east campus, to tenting for basketball games at kville, to our completely unique tailgate experience and annual big theme frat parties i always look forward to. these are things that i didn't think i wanted out of a college experience (going to sporting events? sleeping in the cold for them? frats?), but now that i've had them, i can't imagine a college experience without them. i catch myself telling freshmen things like "tailgate is the best duke tradition" but by the end of the conversation, i've rattled off a list of 6 "best duke traditions."</p>

<p>as for job placement, at times i've been stressed out by the duke career center, but graduating from duke i have a GREAT resume with internships i never in a million years thought i'd have. (and to that proud yalie who dropped a comment about duke kids not getting internships, i'd just like to personally boast that i got one internship OVER a yale kid who sat in the interview room acting like he owned the place and deserved the job bc he went to yale). i was in nyc with a ton of my duke friends this summer, and everyone's internships (whether they were in media, publishing, finance, consulting, medical research, you name it) were so impressive and competitive; my dad was shocked to see 21 year olds with our resumes and our work days.</p>

<p>again, to the yale kid who's posting-- you have some facts completely incorrect. when you said that you had a friend who visited duke, stayed with a kid who was SELECTED BY duke and then that student slammed duke... well, for admitted student days/blue devil days, the admissions ambassadors aren't necessarily "selected by" duke through any sort of screening process or application process. these are always students who volunteer their time to help out. the fact that someone who didn't like duke so much that they were volunteering his/her time to meet pfrosh and telling one to choose another school says more about that student's character than it does about the general duke ugrad experience, if you want me to be quite frank. the students who are chosen through an application process are facs, but you don't meet them until you move in. and i also don't think our yield is nearly as low as the statistic you provided.</p>

<p>i won't lie- i don't know anything about the sciences here at duke. but i do know that my friends who are have not had ANY trouble with finding research mentors or attaining necessary funding to conduct their own original research... and duke has helped them out so much through the process. </p>

<p>i'd be willing to answer any sort of specific question, since i either know the answer or a friend does. i'd be willing to elaborate on experiences. i just want you to realize how much my four years here have meant to me. yesterday marked the 1-month until LDOC (last day of classes-- its a huge day here, third eye blind is headlining a concert... its just an epic day/night) mark and i started bawling. i cannot begin to imagine my life not here. i can't believe that four years ago i didn't think duke was the best fit for me. i am thankful each and every day i made the decision to come to this school, because it was hands down, the best decision i have ever made in my entire life. i'm excited to be a dukie until the day i die -- i will rock my duke spirit in nyc after graduation. (hey- i have followed duke basketball in europe, in the dominican republic, in acapulco, etc). some of my favorite events are the duke in nyc winter bball games where you see all the old alums, you get excited over a game, and then you celebrate together. cheering for duke brings people together. i am confident that my duke experience both in the classroom and outside of it has prepared me so well for the "real world" -- it's provided me with situations i never thought i'd deal with (from being friends with lacrosse players, to dealing with more personal issues with friends, or a pesky durham police force within the past month), introduced me to people i never thought i'd know, and i have grown up so much. i have experienced so much that seemed so foreign to me until duke, and i am forever grateful for that.</p>

<p>saying "duke can do a lot for you, but yale can do so much more" is a sentence that makes me really sad. i didn't get into yale and again, i am so thankful that i didn't, since i would've for sure gone there instead of duke since i knew NOTHING about duke at the time. but i think that sentence is entirely inaccurate. i have had unparalleled resources in the classroom and in terms of career services. and as a matter of fact, i've had two bosses tell me that they like that i went to duke, since while they know its top notch academically, they feel that duke students are generally much more down to earth and fun than their ivy league counterparts. and while that may be a generalization, i don't hesistate to use it, considering the generalizations against duke that have been thrown about this thread as if they were fact. (ps- i turned down ivies for duke, i'm not an ivy reject, don't get on my case with that one). i don't think anyone will ever be able to concretely and convincingly prove that statement correct (or incorrect, for that matter) since no one has had four years undergrad at both schools and has the ability to gauge first hand just what each school can truly/fully do for you over the span of those four years (and, if you're nearing graduation like myself, in the years as an alum)."</p>

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<p>EAD,
Good job for Duke.<br>
BTW, several of the East Asian economies such as Taiwan and South Korea's were built by dictators before they became democracies. I thought I'd mention this since your name is EAD. China is not a democracy either, but look at their economy, ~10% growth every year for almost thirty years and it's truely a miracle.</p>

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<p>Thanks to everyone. He has said that he has made up his mind but needs a day to think on it before he lets us know. I'll keep you all posted. Personally both his father and I think that it will be Duke (my personal preference). But, who knows what goes on in the mind of an 18 year old!
Prof101 PM me I think our kids met at Duke and Dimensions.</p>

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<p>My family just came back from Dimension and BDD (I didn't go). Here is my wife's observation:
1.) Similar academic programs
2.) Dartmouth has better school spirit.
3.) Duke campus is more beautiful.
There is a lot student invovlement in Dimension and very little in BDD. This plus my personal observation of the admitted events held by the two schools in our region makes me believe that the Dartmouth school spirit is no small matter. The admitted event for Dartmouth in our area was organized by the alum association with huge alum participation while the Duke one by admission office with only two alumni. One of the Dartmouth alumae in the event was on a crutch because of a recent accident, talking about school spirit!</p>

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<p>Well my son finally made up his mind. He chose Duke. I agree with 1 & 3 from Prof101. But, school spirit at Duke is unbelievable!<br>
As far as our impression of BDD vs Dimensions: We felt that BDD was more of an informational event. Dimensions was more of a promoting event. Dartmouth hosts the prospies for one weekend and so they really put on a great show. Duke has several different days that prospective students can visit. That might have something to do with the involvement of students. Another MAJOR reason for Duke students lack of involvement this past weekend is that finals start today or tomorrow. That was why we chose another date to go to BDD. I wanted my son to stay with a student in the dorm. When my son went down to Duke he was hosted by a fabulous student who showed him all around and continues to keep in touch with him. At Dimensions his host abandoned him and showed up later passed out and naked! Despite his host, my son left Dartmouth loving the whole student body and the school. He felt the cohesiveness and love of the school and that was an incredible selling point for Dartmouth. It was the Dartmouth students that he loved not necessarily the school. But he also realized that he loved all the students that he met while he was down at Duke. In fact he found the two student bodies to be very similar. But, at Duke he also really liked the D1 sports and spirit that it promotes, DukeEngage was also a major draw, as was the lack of isolation that was present at Dartmouth.
Both schools are so highly regarded and rank so closely (frequently flip flopping places in national rankings) that really you can't go wrong with either and decisions sometime have to be made with the gut. ( I actually think that tenting helped in his gut feeling!)
So, thank you to everyone who helped with this decision. I did make him read this forum and other Duke vs Dartmouth posts and he said that they did help in his decision making process.</p>

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<p>Welcome to the Parents of Dukies Club, 3-2go. No secret handshake or anything! Please feel free to PM me if I can be helpful in the next weeks and months.</p>

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<p>3-2go,
Good riddance and Congratulations! Ours is probaly going the other way.</p>

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<p>Prof 101,
I don't really understand the tone of your "good riddance" comment. Have I said something to offend you or am I misinterpreting your comment?
At any rate, good luck to your daughter. Several of my son's classmates and good friends will be joining her- all nice kids.</p>