Duke vs. Johns Hopkins Vs. UPenn vs. Rice

[aufossil21]

<p>I am from Houston, Texas and am interested in majoring in bio/biomedical engineering and then continuing onto medical school. Which of these school would be considered the best school to apply early decision for? </p>

<p>I am taking into consideration research opportunities, strength of BME program, campus life, pre-med program, and financial aid opportunities(i am a white middle class male)</p>

<p>Please try to include the pros and cons of each school as much as you can. I will be visiting these schools in the middle of August to help me with my decision but any help now on personal thought and suggestions is highly appreciated.</p>

[westsidewolf1989]

<p>Obviously they are all good schools. </p>

<p>As a Rice student, I will tell you (not from direct experience), that the most competive demographic for admission to Rice is a white male from Houston. So basically, you are the equivalent of a Asian male applying to MIT (although obviously a higher acceptance rate than the purported 5-7% for an Asian male a MIT).</p>

<p>However, Rice is opening the Collaborative Research Center, which will allow for a specific building to house medical and biotechnology research between Texas Medical Center (largest medical center in world) researchers and doctors, and Rice professors and students. Previously, students would have had to go to the specific hospital they were working at, so this just allows for a more centralized location for both parties. Rice is also considering a merger with Baylor College of Medicine (a top 15 med school last time I checked; not affiliated with Baylor U.), although any finalization either way won’t be reached until August. </p>

<p>In terms of pre-med program, Rice has a very high acceptance rate for medical schools, although I’m sure your other schools have similar track records with med school, so I don’t think there’s much difference in terms of that factor.</p>

<p>BME is obviously tops at each of the schools you are considering, although JHU and UPenn have weaker engineering departments outside of BME, I believe, while Duke and Rice are strong in other departments of engineering. But as far as BME, they are all good.</p>

<p>Financial aid…I mean I did not apply ED to any school, but what I understand (and someone correct me if I’m wrong) is that if you apply ED, the schools kind of handcuff you when it comes to financial aid, considering that you ED’d there, making financial aid somewhat tougher. They would release you from your commitment to attend the school if you couldn’t afford it, but I think that schools are more stingy when it comes to ED admits than RD. Again, they are all private schools, so I’m sure that financial aid is good at all the schools, and I know if your family income is 80,000 or less, Rice will meet 100% of need eligibility without any loans (so you would have a mix of scholarships, work study, grants, etc.). If you earn more than 80,000, Rice caps your loans at $10,000 for all four years. But I’m pretty sure all these schools have somewhat similar policies.</p>

<p>Campus life is where I believe they differ. I didn’t apply to JHU because I heard their social life sucked. As far as I know, there is really no school spirit, despite their good lacrosse team, and I haven’t exactly heard awesome things about Baltimore. JHU seems like a better school for med school or other grad school, rather than undergrad, and the somwhat cutthroat atmosphere. They have Greek Life.</p>

<p>Penn is probably better, but it’s in a crappy part of Philadelphia. When you hear Penn, people usually think Wharton, and I’ve heard on this board that non-Wharton kids are treated like second-class citizens. Not sure about school spirit, I’m sure basketball games are somewhat popular there. They have Greek Life.</p>

<p>Duke has a definitely better social life than these two IMO. Basketball games are a huge deal, obviously with KVille, and frats/sororities have “Sections” of dorms that they live in, instead of traditional houses. With any Greek life, there is some level of exclusivity, and I’ve seen written accounts online about how joining Greek life is somewhat a requirement if you want to be able to frequent parties a lot after freshman year. Dorms are divided into East and West Campus, with freshman on East, and everyone else on West, and you are required to live on campus for 3 years. I think the divided housing allows for freshmen to get to know each other really well.</p>

<p>Rice is in the middle of Houston, and obviously since you’re a Houstonian, you’ve already formed an opinion about Houston. Rice has no Greek life, we have residential colleges (think Harry Potter), which take the place of a Greek system. If you ask any Rice student or alum, I would be very surprised if this was not one of their top 2 or 3 reasons for coming to Rice. It’s totally exceeded all my expectations, and is very welcoming socially, anyone and everyone can attend parties. If you drink, the alcohol policy is kickass, as Rice is the only wet campus in Texas, and you don’t have annoying RAs attempting to turn you in, and underage drinking in the presence of campus police isn’t uncommon, as they don’t give a shi* what you do, as long as you don’t drive anywhere. As far as sports go, baseball is very big obviously, the ballpark is always standing room only for games against UT or A&M, and midweek games and conference series also get good turnouts. Football had a resurgence last year as they won 10 games and went to a bowl for the second time in three years, so attendance went up in comparison to history. Basketball is promising…that’s all I’ll say haha.</p>

<p>As far as the chicas, I would say Duke is a smidge better than Rice, although this may be due to the fact that it “seems” more of the girls dress up at Duke than at Rice. So I’ll give the edge to Duke in that regard, although there won’t be a whole lot of state-school beauties roaming either campus.</p>

<p>Penn and JHU…most people there are from the North so I’ll let you draw from that what you will.</p>

<p>Here’s an article on the recently completed Collaboration Center.
[Rice</a> University | News & Media](<a href=“http://www.media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=12661]Rice”>http://www.media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=12661)</p>

[eatsalot]

<p>I am only thoroughly familiar with Duke and Penn, as a couple of things about Rice and JHU turned me off. But the reasons are very personal and subjective, and obviously there are reasons to love the latter two schools… so yeah.</p>

<p>JHU: Location is … pretty crappy, in my opinion. Baltimore has very little to offer you. Outside of anything science/medical oriented, JHU doesn’t offer a stronger department than your other schools. JHU’s BME program is supposedly the best out of the four schools, but is also categorized as too competitive for some people. If you can survive it though, it’s a good experience. The plus is obviously JHU’s med school. There are innumerable opportunities due to the amazing-ness of the school’s facilities, but the pre-med experience is said to be more cutthroat than the norm as a majority of JHU students go primarily for its med reputation.</p>

<p>Rice: I honestly cannot tell you too much. The above poster has a lot of insight about the school.</p>

<p>Penn: Penn and Duke are probably the most similar in terms of interdisciplinary practices, educational practicality, prestige, and campus life. Penn is deemed the “social ivy,” and has four different undergraduate schools. As the above poster said, non-Wharton Penn students do complain about the blatant difference in treatment, but I don’t think its significant enough to make life miserable. The pro about Penn is that if you wish to mix anything with business, it is probably one of the better places to be. Philadelphia is… not as cracked up as it is, but it’s still slightly urban. Penn’s campus itself is, while in University City and urban, still gorgeous. There is a decent Greek life, but while they may claim to have the best sports in the ivy league, they… are still not spectacular. Penn’s school of engineering is not particularly strong, but its BME is up there.</p>

<p>Duke: Okay so I’m a Duke student and so… I will obviously have a lot more to detail. I guess I’ll begin by saying that out of the four, Duke’s campus wins. Duke’s social scene is like Penn’s (the both top of the list). Duke’s BME is highly, highly regarded, and the engineering school itself is excellent in terms of academic quality and recognition. If you ever think that maybe engineering is not for you, Duke’s advantage is that its other departments are so strong that you won’t find a weak major. The girls at Duke are probably the better looking ones haha. We somehow get lucky this way… Sports at Duke are what unite the campus: basketball can be LIFE. And it can definitely be incredibly fun. Everyone on campus likes to stay on campus 'cause there is a lot to do, and so there is a tighter-knit community than many schools. Another thing I love about Duke is DukeEngage. DukeEngage is a program that students apply to that allow them to follow through on community service projects all over the world, for FREE. It’s an amazing experience that teaches you about the real word, as Duke stresses that education is for its applications and that the real world is a medium through which you can gain the best knowledge. Moreover, DukeEngage projects help you gain experience for med school admissions. It is another reason why Duke is a haven for people who care about their surroundings. Another benefit is that out of Penn/JHU, Duke is less competitive and more cooperative, even in notorious pre med courses.</p>

<p>Again, I will site the same post by bluedevilmike that drew me to Duke for pre med:</p>

<p>

Hi,</p>

<p>I can without reservation (but also without proof, heh) state that for the majority of premed students, Duke is hands down the best place to be.</p>

<p>First the statistics, then the reasons.</p>

<p>85% of our premeds get into a medical school; this compares to a national number of around 50%, sometimes lower. (Yes, that does mean that half of all students who apply to medical school will be admitted nowhere whatsoever.) Most comparable schools boast rates that are noticeably lower than that. I can’t guarantee this, but I believe people on these boards have been mentioning that Stanford’s percentage is about 75%. Of course, Stanford also has to deal with the UC system, so the comparison isn’t exact, but I frankly can’t imagine anybody preparing us for the process better than Dean Kay Singer and her office.</p>

<p>Second, if you look, you’ll notice that the average GPA among our accepted premeds at a given medical school is lower than the national GPA among accepted premeds, and lower than the GPA at some “peer” institutions. This tells you that students from Duke who have WORSE grades are getting into the SAME medical schools as others. Why?</p>

<p>A few reasons.</p>

<p>1.) We have access to a world-class medical center. It’s close and we’re actually allowed - and helped! - to do stuff in it. Some schools like Columbia don’t have their hospitals nearby, so it’s difficult for students to volunteer or do reseach there. Not only is it literally like two minutes from the dorms to the hospital (walking), but Duke has programs explicitly set up (HCIP) to get undergraduates volunteering in the hospital.</p>

<p>2.) Astonishingly wonderful advising systems. We have famous premedical advisors. I’ve ranted about this a little bit on a thread relating to UCB in the Premed topics forum (Berkeley is a good place to pursue pre-med?) but the bottom line is that advising is both key and really wonderful here. They’ve earned their reputation as being among the best in the country.</p>

<p>This is reflected in their numbers.</p>

<p>3.) World-class faculty in small classes. Duke’s philosophy in hiring faculty is that we want absolutely brilliant faculty on the cutting edge of their fields, and we will put up with almost anything to get them. The one thing we will not put up with, however, is an unwillingness to make teaching their absolute top priority. That means that the faculty we have here love students and will go far out of their way to make sure we learn. This means partly that we learn better, which helps us once we actually get into med school, but it also means that we get better letters of recommendation, which are huge.</p>

<p>This to me is the most important point: Yes, there are schools with similarly or perhaps even more qualified faculty as leaders in their fields. But at what other school do undergraduates have real, worthwhile access to those leaders on a routine basis? Where else will a health economist who is cited repeatedly in every textbook hold multiple review sessions, some of them on Sunday evenings, just to make sure we really learn the stuff? Where else will a world famous chemist respond to freshmen questions via e-mail during his Thanksgiving day? Some schools have wonderful faculty who will do this - but I don’t think any of them will top us in the access we have to brilliance.</p>

<p>4.) An encouragement to pursue co-curricular activites. And yes, I did just call them co-curriculars rather than extra-curriculars. Duke understands that we’re training young men and women here, not just scholars, and so I’ve never heard of a student here who had anything short of astonishing extracurriculars. I’m a tour guide, and I make it a habit when I’m on my tours to mention the accomplishments of the various students I run into - I can afford to do this because Duke students are simply astonishing. Friends of mine have discovered new chemical structures, signed up for internships with the bioterrorism department of the government - it seems everybody has something incredible that they view as normal because that’s what Duke students do.</p>

<p>We have a department entirely for the purpose of helping students arrange interesting, educational, or service-oriented (but usually all three) summer projects.</p>

<p>This is crucial - medical schools need good qualifications, yes, but they are also looking for people who will make good doctors. People who have shown themselves to be committed to helping others, who can dive into the intellectualism known as research, and who have proven that their interest in health is more than just “hypothetical” are standout candidates.</p>

<p>5.) Warmth. Premeds here - knowing that we will all do well in the process - learn together. You won’t hear of us stealing each other’s notes or sabotaging projects. We study together. We encourage each other. Frankly speaking, we take care of each other. Duke students are warm, and we will support each other through rough times along the premedical track. Is this a stereotype? Absolutely. Has it proven true for me? Also absolutely.</p>

<p>6.) Location in the research triangle. This is one of the more minor points, but our location amongst the high-powered pharmaceutical companies does make it easier to attract biotechnology-oriented professors, faculty, companies, internships, etc. Duke Medical Center attracts a lot of exciting research for this purpose, and that may impact the premedical experience somewhat.</p>

<p>That doesn’t even begin to talk about reputation, courses that prepare you for the MCAT, a pre-professional slant at Duke (which is good for pre-professional students like pre-meds), really world class science buildings like the French Science Building and CIEMAS, a commitment to genomics and science as a future, the interdisciplinary focus of most of our science programs, including medical humanities classes and the excellence of our biomedical engineering… I could go on and on but it’s late and I’m getting sleepy.</p>

<p>Let me know if you have any questions - I should be pretty good about checking my private messages in the near future.</p>

<p>-Mike

</p>

<p>Duke has amazing advising, and they are always willing to help students in the endeavors. </p>

<p>Good luck and I hope this helps! If you have other questions, feel free to PM me.</p>

[sidster101]

<p>hey
i was reading urs and bluedevil’s posts. im planning on goin to pre med and not sure which college to aim for. but duke seems like a good fit for me. what was ur major btw?</p>

<p>also, any ideas on the 7/8 year programs?</p>

[cdz512]

<p>Advantage of Rice: </p>

<p>1) World’s largest medical campus next door (Texas Medical Center); Duke and Hopkins has a great medical center as well, but not as big as Texas Medical Center (However, all of these hospitals are the best in the nation). </p>

<p>2) More laid-back, less intense competition than UPenn and JHU (Duke and Rice both have laid-back, friendly student bodies)</p>

<p>3) Rice has the highest endowment per student ratio. </p>

<p>4) Better weather (well Duke has the best weather though, it’s not too hot or cold) </p>

<p>5) Ranked #2 in quality of life and #15 in happiest students according to 2009 Princeton
Review</p>

<p>6) Residential College System (think Harry Potter). You really get to bond with people of all grade, not just with freshmen.</p>

<p>7) Houston (the big metropolitan south city). You get free rail and bus rides. </p>

<p>8) Smaller classes and more access to professors (3154 undergrads at Rice vs. 6496 undergrads at Duke vs. 4744 at JHU) 5:1 faculty student ratio (you get more attention from professors –> better ability to learn –> better education –> better life and better value for your money).</p>

<p>9) Baseball (Rice Owls won the College World Series in 2003, beating Stanford). Though Rice isn’t really good at other sports.</p>

<p>10) No real frats/sororities = no social exclusion. The residential system makes up for that.</p>

<p>Advantage for Duke: </p>

<p>1) Pratt school of Engineering is great. BME at Pratt is one of the strongest in the nation (and it can be just as strong as JHU’s though both have different curriculum)</p>

<p>2) Great school spirit with Duke Basketball and Lacrosse (men and women)</p>

<p>3) Duke FOCUS/Duke ENGAGE Programs. It is very popular and strong</p>

<p>4) Slightly more resources (such as more clubs, more student organization) because of its bigger size</p>

<p>5) Moderate climate (as opposed to the hot/humid weather in Houston, cold climate in UPenn and Baltimore)</p>

<p>6) Duke forest for people who would like to go camping</p>

<p>7) Duke has a big campus where you can hang out and play some pick up soccer, football, ultimate frisbee. </p>

<p>8) The truth is, Duke (and Rice)just has a better college life than JHU and UPenn IMO (as they say, at Rice and Duke, you can party a lot all night and still learn a lot during the day)</p>

<p>9) Duke has a wonderful pre-med track. Duke pre-med but it produces great results (85% admissions rate to med schools)</p>

<p>10) Duke has good certified programs you can take. There are a lot of certified programs for all interest.</p>

<p>JHU the curves are somewhat bad I heard (people become way more competitive to get a good score rather than helping others. Sometimes it is a competition between the students to see who can score the highest because a student can get a 95 and others can get a 97 but then a grade deflating curve causes that 95 to become a 85, it’s just not a true sign of how knowledgeable a student is. (This is what I heard, I’m not sure if that’s true.</p>

[eatsalot]

<p>

@sidster101

hey
i was reading urs and bluedevil’s posts. im planning on goin to pre med and not sure which college to aim for. but duke seems like a good fit for me. what was ur major btw?</p>

<p>also, any ideas on the 7/8 year programs?

</p>

<p>I am a double major - Neuroscience and Economics. (Also with a PPE certificate and possibly a Chemistry minor, buttt that’s different haha). </p>

<p>When I was considering 7/8 medical programs, my biggest draw to schools like Duke and Penn were the fact that I’d be able to pursue an education for the sake of well… an education. I wanted to put myself under the test of whether or not I am truly fit to be a doctor (even though I loved medicine). But more importantly, I wanted a well-rounded liberal arts education, one that will allow me to branch out and explore different fields properly. I figured that if I did go into medicine, I’d need to understand my environment and the people around me much better to be a better doctor… and with medical programs, you don’t always get that. Rather, you are rushed to grab a degree. &I didn’t want to become simply focused on the end result of BANG “physician.”</p>

<p>So yeah… just my two cents. :)</p>

[hookem168]

<p>I second everything that’s been said so far (especially about Duke being the most well-rounded of the 4 in terms of social life), and I just have a couple of quick specifics to add:</p>

<p>Duke’s undergrad BME program is currently #2 in the nation, just behind JHU: [Undergraduate</a> engineering specialties: Biomedical - Best Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/spec-doct-biomedical]Undergraduate”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/spec-doct-biomedical)</p>

<p>cdz, the new Princeton Review rankings just came out! For the most part, I think they’re a bunch of bologna. I mean, WashU is ranked #4 in “Quality of Life,” and when I visited, the majority of the students seemed MISERABLE hahaha.<br>
Anyway, we now have </p>

<ul>
<li><p>the 4th best library in the U.S. (only behind H, P, and Columbia…ahead of Yale! :D) </p></li>
<li><p>the 7th best school for “Students pack the stadium” (by FAR the best private school for this. the 6 ahead of us are ginormous state publics) </p></li>
<li><p>the 9th best college newspaper</p></li>
<li><p>the 17th best school for “More to do on Campus,” and </p></li>
<li><p>the 19th “Happiest Students.”</p></li>
</ul>

<p>Again, some pretty wack, subjective categories, but the “best library” means a lot to me :)</p>

<p>OP, the bottom line is, VISIT EACH OF THEM IF YOU CAN! If you do, I’m very confident you’ll choose us :)</p>

[noobcake]

<p>Be careful about Durham; other than that there is nothing wrong with Duke</p>

[vasudevank]

<p>@noobcake, surprisingly great colleges are in horrible parts of cities, never really figured out why. But if you look at USC, UCB, Duke, UPenn, JHU, and even the part of Cambridge that MIT and H are in aren’t that great.</p>

[SBR]

<p>When the colleges were built, their surrounding areas were probably all right. As time goes on, cities decline and revive and things change. A hundred years from now, you probably wouldn’t recognize the areas around many colleges.</p>

[cdz512]

<p>

cdz, the new Princeton Review rankings just came out! For the most part, I think they’re a bunch of bologna. I mean, WashU is ranked #4 in “Quality of Life,” and when I visited, the majority of the students seemed MISERABLE hahaha.

</p>

<p>You know, I never liked St. Louis, or Baltimore. I mean it’s like, I don’t feel so safe. The fact that JHU has a gate around it’s school makes it worse. Anyways, I have love schools in the south. Ranking of best student life is getting ridiculously awkward. I like “best value” better.</p>