Duke vs. Williams -- A Heartbreaking Decision

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>First, let me say that you don't have to read this all... if you're not in the mood, feel free to just tell me what your immediate impression is. But, if you don't mind reading a bit, I think it would help you better understand my situation.</p>

<p>Don't get me wrong when I say this -- but I've heard the superficial. I've heard that my decision is completely relative to what I want as a student in college simply because the schools are so different; I've heard that some people think small, tightly-knit colleges like Williams are the best place in the world to spend four years, while others find a place like Duke to offer endless opportunities both socially and academically; and I've heard that I can't go wrong because both schools are great. </p>

<p>And I agree -- I love both schools! (probably why I am so torn...) -- but, the reason I am posting on this blog is to gain insight from others who know more about the schools than I do, or from those who can provide insight into why one of the schools provides its students with a distinct advantage compared to the other. I know it's not at all that simple, but any and all advice is welcome.</p>

<p>Here's a bit about my background, future plans, current concerns, etc:</p>

<ul>
<li>I would definitely like to attend a top-notch graduate school, probably for law.</li>
<li>I have a very wide array of academic interests, ranging from politics to mathematics, from English to philosophy (so I'm practically undecided) -- and in that manner, I very much like the idea of a strong liberal arts education.</li>
<li>I love to write</li>
<li>I plan to participate in intermural sports (basketball and soccer) in college, if not varsity soccer (Williams would be likely; Duke would be a big stretch, especially freshman year). It's not a huge thing for me, but it would be fun.</li>
<li>I plan to write and/or edit for the collegiate newspaper</li>
<li>I plan to take Chinese or possibly continue Spanish (fluent).</li>
<li>I am a very social guy, like to make a lot of friends, etc.</li>
<li>I would eventually like to become a professor, or possibly a politician</li>
</ul>

<p>Things I like about Duke:</p>

<ul>
<li>The Focus Program</li>
<li>School Spirit</li>
<li>Sports</li>
<li>Possibility of Liberal Arts in the setting of a Large University (i.e. Focus Program)</li>
<li>The strength of the political science major</li>
<li>Graduate school placement</li>
<li>Prestige of facutly</li>
</ul>

<p>Things I like about Williams:</p>

<ul>
<li>Liberal-arts focus</li>
<li>Faculty interaction</li>
<li>Graduate schools placement</li>
<li>Reputation</li>
<li>The strength of students' writing / Oxford Style Tutorials (how are those!?)</li>
<li>Athletic Program</li>
<li>Williams-Exeter Programme (gotta' love the British spelling!) at Oxford (haven't heard about this, but the idea sounds amazing!)</li>
</ul>

<p>NOTE: Something that concerns me about Williams: When I visited, I thought the town was a bit boring. It is probably just because I was alone and walked around by myself, and didn't see many people...but perhaps somebody (a student) can provide some insight: do you get bored if you're not necessarily a "nature" person? Is the social scene based a lot upon sports, or is it just the usual (not sure what I mean by that, but I think you get the idea).</p>

<p>Yeah, there are probably lots of other things I like about both schools, but I think I've hit most of it. So I guess it comes down to this: I love the idea of interacting with professors (I've always loved teachers), especially well-renowned ones; but I heard that if you really want to, you can interact with your professors/advisors anywhere if you really put forth the effort (and I definitely would); I'm kinda' worried about Williams' rural setting, but I'm the kind of person who doesn't really need to go to a big city to survive, so it just depends on the school atmosphere; I want to get a great education, and I don't want to give up one that I'd love, and the idea of all the Oxford-style stuff at Williams, but I think that Duke offers something remotely similar in its Focus Program (it would be great if somebody could offer something about this), which would probably allow me to interact with professors.</p>

<p>So, there it is. If you got this far, hopefully you will be generous enough to provide your ideas. It doesn't have to be a definitive answer -- Even if you have something to say that may at all be remotely useful, it would be greatly appreciated!</p>

2

<p>oops...accidentally posted this twice...</p>

3

<p>mathemenglish, I've never visited Duke and don't know any students personally so I'm not in a position to compare the two schools, but as the parent of a recent Williams graduate I can tell you a little more about Williams.</p>

<p>First, the interaction with professors is phenomenal. They are there for you 24/7. They invite you to dinner at their homes. They answer your e-mails. They remember you when you need recommendations -- for graduate school, for internships, for jobs. They are tireless, committed and intensely personal.</p>

<p>My son took a couple of the two student tutorials that Williams is famous for with mixed results. Success depends a lot on the person you are paired with. Aside from the tutorials, most Williams classes are quite small, often under 12 students and my son really enjoyed the intellectual energy generated in this type of discussion based class. </p>

<p>My son liked Williamstown and the surrounding area. He's also quite outdoorsy -- into trekking, snowboarding -- which added to the appeal. Basically, he just warmed to the insular, ivory tower aspect of Williams. It's subjective and there's no question, but that Williamstown is a quiet place.</p>

<p>Social life really centered around hanging out with friends, going to social events (or sports events or cultural events) with friends. The housing clusters offer a fair range of sponsored activities. Although sports and physical activity of all sorts is a hallmark of Williams, sports are not the center of activity unless you choose to make them so. Williams kids, in general, are energetic and multifaceted. They may be athletes, or they may be artists, dancers, musicians, politicos etc, or a combination of several. They are doers.</p>

<p>You are fortunate to have two excellent choices. You will get a fabulous education and end up healthy, wealthy and wise whichever you choose. Try to follow your heart.</p>

4

<p>Both suit you, but I believe Williams is the better path given your preferences.</p>

5

<p>I read your post, and I'm still going to say Williams. I'm all for liberal art colleges for undergrad years, especially since you're planning on Grad school, you'll have a chance later to be at a big research university. You can only go to an LAC for undergrad, the same cannot be said at a research university where you can go for undergrad, grad, etc...</p>

6

<p>dude. I have the same delimma....
Williams vs DUke
But since Williams has stronger physcis and astronomy department. So i choose Williams over Duke.
Good luck to you....</p>

7

<p>I think Williams offers the best undergraduate experience in the country- great combination of academics, athletics and outdoors. Go with Williams. Maybe Duke for law school.</p>

8

<p>I have no clue about which is better for you. Congratulations on having 2 outstanding choices. However, I'll pass along some insight that was given to me. </p>

<p>I recently spoke with a former professor I had at a prominent ivy who attended Amherst (similar to Williams) for undergraduate. He asked me whether or not my son would consider prominent ivy for college. After some conversation, he said that in his opinion, we should definitely look into a college like Amherst where the students are given attention by the professors and the focus is ungraduate education. He said to go to prominent ivy for graduate school. </p>

<p>Anyway, that was the advice given to me by someone who holds important positions in a top university.</p>

9

<p>A few comments</p>

<p>Duke's student newspaper is among the best in the country and will get you tons of opportunity.</p>

<p>The Duke name and network is bigger than Williams, and will help with any political career.</p>

<p>Duke and Williams are comparable in law/biz/med placement, grad school placement, and any academic way. But keep in mind Duke has more resources to fund travels to China (it does that), allow you to start your own campus publication, and other things that I've seen people do. Duke has more students in several writing and publishing organizations that you can get involved in as well.</p>

<p>FYI, I chose Duke over Williams multiple years ago.</p>

10

<p>I didn't read the whole post because it really just depends on whether you want a school with only 2,000 students or not.</p>

11

<p>In the last two years, both my Ds have decided to attend college in the northeast, > 1,000 miles from home. I originally had hoped they'd consider Duke, which is driveable from our home in Georgia. We visited there twice, but here's an illustration of what we perceived and why we ultimately agreed with them to steer away from Duke:</p>

<p>Last year, in the aftermath of the lacrosse scandal, Duke's president commissioned a Campus Culture task force to assess the elements of the campus culture that tend to impede the university's mission. The fact that the lacrosse story was bogus was not as significant as the fact that in the context of the prevailing culture, the story sounded plausible and unsurprising to most observers.</p>

<p>Here is the link to the full task force report:
<a href="http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/reports/ccireport.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/reports/ccireport.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The task force described what the local papers termed "a culture of excess," something that had previously also been described to me by former Duke students and employees. In the '90s, the former Duke chaplain, Will Willimon, published scathing articles about a campus culture that described an alcohol-fixated campus life that was decidedly non-intellectual. An unhappy Duke student posting two years ago on CC said the same, and was bemoaning his decision to go there. According to last year's report, the culture persists.</p>

<p>In one particularly troubling section of the report, the Task Force found:
"In summary, these understandings about the social dynamics of race, gender, and sexuality converge, indicating that one aspect of the University’s campus culture that puts its institutional and educational vision at risk is the perception and experience by some that Duke is an “alternative unfriendly” environment. Clearly, to improve campus culture, Duke must achieve a more inclusive academic community. To do so, the University needs to craft policies and practices that promote a more common identity as members of a community in which people of all backgrounds share a common purpose and values, treat each other with respect, engage differences, and hold themselves and each other responsible for acting in accordance with these shared core values. Last spring’s events revealed that Duke must do better in learning how to engage difference constructively. The University needs to go beyond fostering the expectation of tolerance for differences in cultures, beliefs, opinions, and behaviors, beyond learning “to agree to disagree” to avoid conflict. The University needs to promote moving beyond tolerance to respect and beyond “just putting up with” differences to finding positive value in each individual and the diversity among us. Respect is manifested in affirmation of the worth of traditions and identities other than one’s own and in the civility with which members of the community engage each other. Authentic engagement with
difference will at times result in conflict. Just as the conversation cannot end with superficial tolerance of difference, it also need not end with conflict, and the University’s challenge is to prepare students for the increasing clashes of cultures and beliefs and their engagement and comfort with those who are culturally different. Engaging differences fosters more complex thinking and leads to greater self-understanding and identification of other possibilities and ways of life. To realize the educational benefits of difference, however, Duke must function as a community that fosters openness to new ideas and ways of thinking and that promotes fuller engagement with difference. A diverse, inclusive, and engaged community that affirms difference is the social context necessary for the transformative educational experience that Duke intends to provide."</p>

<p>I really have tried to like Duke, but I perceive that its negative issues are very deeply entrenched. Oh . . . FWIW, Williams would be my dream school if I was 18 again.</p>

12

<p>Williams.
A school renown for its academics, its talented students and its exceptional undergraduate experience. You can't go wrong with that choice.</p>

13

<p>Although my S chose Amherst, We both were highly impressed with Williams. If you want to do it, Williams can sponsor it, so no worries there. I'm in agreement with some of the others. If you believe that you will persuing grad/law school anyway, take this prime opportunity to immerse yourself in a LAC type experience intellectually, socially, etc, to build your future career plans on. The Uni's aren't going anywhere.</p>

14

<p>I think Duke has at least as big of a name as Williams, and in many cases probably more. </p>

<p>However, Duke is very old-school traditional and Southern, so you have to be ready for that.</p>

<p>Williams is a great, beautiful school, but the town pretty much closes at 7:30. Very, very slow was my impression when I visited. </p>

<p>So I would honestly focus on atmosphere if I were you. good luck though, you have two great schools to choose between :)</p>

15

<p>I feel whenever someone posts a top LAC vs top University, they always end up choosing the top university.</p>

16

<p>Williams actually funds a number of great travel opportunities and study opportunities in Asia--that won't be a problem.</p>

17

<p>thanks for the responses! I've gained a lot more insight, and would always appreciate more.</p>

<p>Another question: What do you think about both schools with regard to prestige? It is very interesting to me that barely anybody here as heard of Williams, even though it has topped the liberal-arts list four years in a row.</p>

<p>I'd be glad to hear any and every piece of advice there is!</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
Another question: What do you think about both schools with regard to prestige?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Check out the grad school, law school placement rates. Those people know about Williams, and that's all that matters.</p>

19

<p>It's not that people on these forums haven't heard of Williams; it's that they realize that most people in the real world haven't. </p>

<p>If you're planning to go to graduate school, the prestige should in no way whatsoever be a factor. Honestly, the biggest thing by far that makes these schools different is size and you just have to think about what you want in that department.</p>

20

<p>The "prestige" difference between Duke at Williams is a difference of whether your neighbor, aunt, or person working the grocery store checkout line will have heard of Williams or not. Chances are, most of them will have heard of Duke. However, all grad schools and pre-professional schools are very knowledgeable about Williams, and you'll find that most folks in hiring positions will be as well. Sure, there will be exceptions--and I am sure people on this board can tell you about this one professor they knew from Berkeley who hadn't heard of Williams--but by and large, the difference in prestige among the people who "count" between Williams and Duke is 0.</p>

<p>In other words, the difference is an ego difference. If you're the sort of person who wants everyone you meet in all walks of life to be impressed with your college...Duke's a better call. If this doesn't matter to you, make your decision based on other factors. It's also important to note that Williams' lower profile among the general population has its benefits--there is no doubt in my mind that the number of people who are at Williams because "It Is Williams" (rather than because of the wonderful opportunities it offers) are fewer than the number of people who are at Duke because "It Is Duke."</p>