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<p>I would agree there are people who don’t think gay sex is “wrong” and I would also agree murdering anyone with anything is “wrong”. </p>
<p>Consider the source of the comparison. It was over the top and not accurate.</p>
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<p>It doesn’t matter. You are arbitrarily asserting that the Charter must include religion. That is not the case.</p>
<p>The Bylaws establish the BSA as a religious organization, period. Show me where this is contradicted or the issue is closed</p>
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<p>I did. In fact, here it is, for all to see:</p>
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<p>So, let me post this again:
- The Charter is the Charter (and includes the Bylaws, but I thought that was obvious)
- It has several parts
- One includes a statement that the BSA has a policy that requires its members to be religious and that the BSA institutionally supports religion in a non-sectarian fashion
- By definition, it is therefore a religious organization</p>
<p>For you to make the claim that that is irrelevant because it is not in the Charter, you need to show that the Bylaws are irrelevant, which you have not.</p>
<p>So, either justify your decision to arbitrarily and idiotically exclude the Bylaws or show us where that Statement is contradicted within any BSA document in an official manner. Otherwise, as mentioned, the discussion is over – there’s no grounds on which you can legitimately disagree.</p>
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<p>No you 1st claimed the Charter included religion. It doesn’t directly. The article you quoted is part of the Bylaws which is separate from the Charter. The Bylaws are mentioned in the Charter only that they exist.</p>
<p>This is directly from the Charter
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<p>Nothing about religion there.</p>
<p>I don’t have to justify anything. There is a religious element to Scouting. Says so right here
There is also a uniform element. There is also an outdoor element. There are many elements to Scouting. The BSA is a youth organization with many elements.</p>
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<p>The Charter and Bylaws are almost always written together. I thought it was obvious, but I guess I was wrong. So, now that we cleared up this irrelevant point, let’s move on.</p>
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<p>Thereby making it a religious organization. Mandating and holding religion as an institutional view and one of its members is the definition of a religious organization. It doesn’t matter whether the charter states it or an official proclamation originally written on a napkin states it – it simply is.</p>
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<p>No it isn’t. The only thing mandated is belief in God. Just because the BSA has a uniform element, doesn’t make it a uniformed organization.</p>
<p>You never said what your role in the BSA was even though I asked.</p>
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<p>As if that’s a compelling reason. But, for the record,</p>
<p>Cub Scout –> Boy Scout –> Eagle –> Volunteer</p>
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<p>Actually, yes it does. Because it’s institutionally mandated.</p>
<p>Actually, it doesn’t. While there is a requirement to believe in God, there is no requirement to own a uniform.</p>
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<p>Well, if you demand things of people, expect the same to happen to you. Volunteer in what role?</p>
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<p>The institutional mandate regarding the uniform concerns who may wear it, when, how the BSA insignia may be used, the design of the uniform, which parts of the uniform the troop can voluntarily not use, how each element is relevant to the uniform as a whole, and how one should properly wear the uniform.</p>
<p>In other words, you are correct that not all Scouting groups wear uniforms, Venture Scouting in particular. One is not allowed to, however, simply disregard the clear institutional policies concerning the uniform. So my previous statement was not as precise as necessary, so I apologize.</p>
<p>And I’m glad to see that you’ve conceded that the BSA is a religious organization.</p>
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<p>I demanded nothing – show me where I said, “I demand” or something actually synonymous.</p>
<p>I’ll say it again - There is no requirement that ANY youth member or ANY adult volunteer own a Scouting uniform. If one is owned, there are rules and regulations on how and when to wear the uniform.</p>
<p>I have conceded nothing.</p>
<p>You demand people back up their opinions yet you don’t feel obligated to answer a direct question? </p>
<p>Volunteer in what role?</p>
<p>Great thread- no need for me to add my comments on religion/sexual orientation since so many have done such a good job. But I will add my input anyhow since I have strong feelings regarding the subject.</p>
<p>Most of the Eagle scouts I know personally are not the most intelligent men compared to nonscouts I know (most not college grads despite opportunities). The smart one is likely to have Wall Street ethics. For those who are into scouting it is a definite plus to continue to the top- as is being a team captain or making varsity for other activities. It can add to an already stellar resume but stellar qualities are not needed to obtain the rank. Scouting, like religion, is a way of life for some. </p>
<p>Son dropped out of Cub Scouts at his elementary school when he skipped a grade- there was no way to be with his classmates instead of the ones a grade behind. He also didn’t thrive on the busywork required for badges/ranks. He enjoyed some of the activites so it is a shame to have to give up a way to be with peers outside of school. We couldn’t substitute church activites (none of you want me pointing out how wrong your social club’s beliefs are). This was before any religious component was in play- the atheism and rightfully strong beliefs. It also was before the issues surrounding gender orientation- the local scouting groups lost funding dollars on this one when it came out. It is strange that we let heterosexuals of the opposite gender get involved with our children if we use the same logic- can you trust any single person? A marriage requirement for teachers?</p>
<p>Thanks for the thread and a chance to vent on the subject. Secular Humanism- do they accept that? Saw the term at a Portland, OR public library display this spring. Strong beliefs are not confined to mythologies. Morals and ethics are not the exclusive domain of religions. Parting shot- if complete honesty was required most people could not be members of their religion.</p>
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<p>I’m going to table this issue on my end until the religious one is resolved; I don’t discuss two unrelated points at the same time. You can do whatever you want.</p>
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<p>Fine. Repost:</p>
<p>1) The Charter is the Charter (and includes the Bylaws, but I thought that was obvious)
2) It has several parts
3) One includes a statement that the BSA has a policy that requires its members to be religious and that the BSA institutionally supports religion in a non-sectarian fashion
4) By definition, it is therefore a religious organization</p>
<p>Point out the problem.</p>
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I’m confused then. What type of statement or activities would make BSA explicitly a religious organization, exactly?</p>
<p>Once again Baelor and Balcony boy have hijacked a thread about Boy Scouts. <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/564847-quit-not-quit-boy-scouts.html?highlight=Boy+Scouts[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/564847-quit-not-quit-boy-scouts.html?highlight=Boy+Scouts</a> </p>
<p>This thread is supposed to be about whether being an Eagle Scout is a hook or not, isn’t it? I think it would be really nice to the OP if those that wanted to talk about Boy Scouts and the gay angle do so on a separate thread over in the cafe.</p>
<p>What type of statement? Something that would require active participation in a denomination would be an example.</p>
<p>Yep the Charter is the Charter and it includes the bylaws and many other things. There is nothing in the Purpose which I posted that even mentions religion. The Purpose does patriotism but that doesn’t make the BSA a patriotic organization.</p>
<p>Unrelated points? It’s all related. Sorry to confuse you.</p>
<p>Time to close the thread down.</p>
<p>[Religious</a> Organization Law & Legal Definition](<a href=“http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/religious-organization/]Religious”>http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/religious-organization/)</p>
<p>Although it says the laws vary from state to state, can you honestly expect us to believe that BSA is a religious organization after reading this?</p>
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<p>Then your definition of a religious organization is the same as no one else on this thread. We are defining religious organization by one that institutionally associates with religion, which the BSA does. </p>
<p>I would refer to what you are describing as sectarianism. </p>
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<p>Institutional = institutional; if something is listed specifically in any BSA document that has official status, which the Charter and Bylaws do, it applies to the description of the organization. A Christian sports league that restricts membership to Christian middle schools but doesn’t talk about religion in the mission statement is still a Christian sports league.</p>
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<p>I’m sorry, no. The one has no bearing on the other, at least how we were discussing it. Again, not even talking about it right now.</p>
<p>@firehose: It is clear that no one is using the same definition of “religious organization.” Legally, the BSA is not religious, but discriminates on a religious basis, and therefore faces restrictions.</p>
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<p>Bingo. The BSA is not religious. Their discrimination is legal.</p>
<p>My son will be a college freshman at his first choice school in a few weeks and is an Eagle Scout. I think any admissions officer or committee member would tell you that grades and SAT or ACT scores are the most important factors in the admissions process. However, they would also tell you that they are looking for students who have interests or passions outside of schoolwork. They are looking for a true interest, not superficial participation in many different organizations. For many boys, scouting fills that role. Only 2% of all scouts earn the Eagle rank, which requires years of commitment and many hours of volunteer work and weekends of dedication to learning scouting skills. Many people do not realize that scouts pass board of reviews for every rank advancement, and are interviewed during that process by three adults. They learn to look an interviewer in the eye, shake hands, speak clearly, and articulate what they learned and how they have applied it. They have wonderful experiences overcoming obstacles that give them subject matter for college essays. They are required to earn volunteer hours collecting food, etc. An Eagle Scout must plan and lead others in a project that benefits a charitable organization other than the Boy Scouts. The scout must present this project to several different committees for approval, and prepare a detailed report at its completion. All of these skills and experiences helped my son during his college application process, but more important, they made him a better person, and a better student.</p>
<p>Scouting obviously is not for everyone, but for those who enjoy the outdoors it is a great experience. I would tell any parent to help your child cultivate a true interest in something outside of school, whether it is photography, music, church, etc. and support them in that interest. These outside activities help to give your child self worth not measured in grades, which is much more important than getting into a particular school.</p>
<p>Regarding Scouts and the religious debate: The BSA does not require attendance at or membership to any religious body. Scouts don’t have to attend church or synagog. There is no religious teaching or training that occurs at Scout meetings. Therefore, I think it’s not accurate to call it a religious organization.</p>
<p>The religious lines one finds in the oath and law refer to “God,” which could be any god.
They refer to “reverence” which could be reverence to any power beyond oneself. While the majority of Scouts are Christian, there are many who are Jewish, and even some who are Muslim, Hindu, and even Unitarian. </p>
<p>As long as a boy is ok with recognizing a power beyond oneself, even if they consider nature or some undefined power of the universe as what they mean when they consider “god”, they can fit into scouting without compromising their integrity. I’ve found more than a few Scouts, as they mature from young boys to teenagers, using this definition or similar ones while they may be questioning their religious upbringing. </p>
<p>I would say Scouting is a youth organization which incorporates and supports general religious values, but is centered on community service and character building. I don’t consider it a “religious organization,” although it is very friendly and supportive of all recognized religious groups.</p>