<p>Simba and Yalebound, the bottom line is that each year Princeton ends up with the brightest freshman ivy class (with a median SAT of about 1495, Harvard usually follows at about 1490). Only 2 other colleges may typically have higher SAT median scores (MIT and CalTech) and thats to be expected given that they place more importance on scores and less importance on athletics and ECs.
But please, again your placing to much emphasis of test scores. If Princeton was only interested in a high SAT class then they would not have rejected the many highly qualified 1500+ SAT applicants that have appeared so frequently here (although I am certain many of them will be admitted in the RD round). The Early round was consumed by athletes, legacies and those with strong hooks. In the end Princeton, as always, will have a smart, talented class, perhaps the nations most balanced.</p>
<p>Simba: Where are you getting this 46% from? </p>
<p>When Princeton, Stanford and Yale were all ED, Princeton always had a higher yield than either of those two. Would you care to explain that?</p>
<p>kountingsheep, i don't want to sound super discouraging, but i think they only do likely letters in ED admissions, around the beginning of october. plus you need a special connection in the princeton staff who requests a letter for you. they just don't give them out.</p>
<p>And as far as I understand, it's mostly for recruited athletes, so that they don't sign with a second-tier school early on when their Princeton app is still in processing. Basically Princeton has already decided it, but they have to send out all the letters at the same time, so they do the likely letters to be sure their people know to stick it out. So there isn't a use for a: non-ED or b: non-athletes, as far as I understand it.</p>
<p>Haha, good point pegdiver. Still, though, I'd venture to guess that there are at least 40% of the early spots filled up by recruited athletes. After all, over 50% of the school participates in intercollegiate athletics, so i don't think that it's a stretch to think that 20% of the total student body is involved in a varsity sport. (probably much more than that). Not to categorize all athletes, but as a group they tend to have lower stats and drag down the averages. This would put the ED acceptance rate for people who aren't recruited athletes at about 15%, which is much closer to the RD figure. The extra 5% could be accounted for with the fact that Princeton knows Pton is an ED applicant's first choice, and that they accept many legacies during ED rounds.</p>
<p>pimpdaddy sorry, it should be 51%. My mistake.</p>
<p>These stats are important to us parents who would be dishing out 40+k/year. If the choice is between S & P, Y & P or H & P we know where to spend the money !!. BTW Stanford's yield was 66%.</p>
<p>If allie's numbers are correct, the RD pool would have to have a median score of about 1530+ to boost up the current median of 1460 for about half of the student population.</p>
<p>and as she says, "In the end Princeton, as always, will have a smart, talented class, perhaps the nations most balanced."....and I believe that she is correct. My analysis by no means was meant to put Princeton down. It just gives us more data to make informed decision, and also is an example of how USNWR rankings could be tainted a bit. </p>
<p>You all kids should be proud that you would be studying at one of America's finest institution.</p>
<p>I would certainly like to see a supporting link for the surprising claim that the median SAT score at Princeton is not only higher than Yale's and Stanford's, but higher than Harvard's as well. The 25/75 midpoint of reported SAT scores listed in USNews has always been higher at Harvard, with Yale often a hair ahead of Princeton. If there are "median" numbers showing something else, I'd like to see them. I was unaware that Harvard - for example - ever calculated or publiushed a "median" SAT number that was different from the 25/75 "midpoint."</p>
<p>Given Harvard's bias against the brightest kids from east coast high schools in favor of finding kids from ruling class families in the vast underbelly of the US, I would think that Harvard does not report its median for a very good reason--it's probably lower than that of Yale or Princeton, which take the best and the brightest whereever they are found.</p>
<p>Simba, I don't see how you can compare Princeton's RD yield to Stanford's total yield and then somehow prove that Stanford is better. Princeton's overall yield has traditionally been better than Stanford's. Lets look back at a time when all three of these institutions were ED. In 1998, Harvard's yield was 76 percent while Princeton, Stanford, and Yale had yields of 66, 64, and 61 percent, respectively. (<a href="http://www.harvard-magazine.com/issues/mj98/jhj.faster.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.harvard-magazine.com/issues/mj98/jhj.faster.html</a>).</p>
<p>Meanwhile, yes, Princeton loses most of its cross admits with Harvard but so do Stanford and Yale. Amongst Stanford, Princeton and Yale, cross admits are basically 50-50. There is no large 80-20 divide as there is with Harvard. If you are so concerned about spending 40k a year maybe you should give some consideration to which of these four schools your kid likes instead of these garbage revealed preference rankings (Brown better than Columbia??).<br>
A huge percentage of the RD admits I know here turned down Yale, MIT or Stanford (admittedly, I've meet fewer who've turned down Harvard) to be here and they all seem quite happy.</p>
<p>Byerley, Its amazing how you can play with terms. Its also amazing how you can find stats when they benefit --- but somehow cannot find data when it works against ---. Your reactions to posts are childlike.
Median scores have been published. If it were anybody else I just might go back to the library and get the name of the college guide that published the median stats, but you, well -----, I'll take my time. It should be enough to know that there is a reason Princeton is continually identified as the most selective school in the nation (Harvard is very close, but in this case no cigar). As I posted earlier I don't put much into SAT scores as a true measure and neither does Princeton (the proof there is in the large number of CC people with high SAT scores who were deferred). Any of the Ivies could easily produced the number 1 scoring class, if that was their intent.</p>
<p>Princeton's major attraction, that the other Big Two will will never be able to match, is its total and undevided undergraduate focus. The nation's top students are very aware of this. It becomes most apparent in the due diligence period when they begin contacting professors, departments etc. For this single fact alone, Princeton will always have the Undergraduate Edge. As for graduate school, I concede.</p>
<p>"Amongst Stanford, Princeton and Yale, cross admits are basically 50-50. There is no large 80-20 divide as there is with Harvard."</p>
<p>Not true: According to the NBER survey, the difference between Yale and Harvard is quite close. The gap between Yale and Harvard is only about 1/3 the gap between Yale and Princeton. the yale Princeton gap would be even greater if Princeton did not reject students it decided would be going to Yale or Harvard. </p>
<p>That said, Princeton is an incredible school for those lucky enough to get in.</p>
<p>Table 3
The Revealed Preference Ranking of Colleges
(The Pure or "Price-Not-Considered" Ranking)
1 Harvard 2.199 2.193 2.205 ***
2 Yale 2.112 2.106 2.119 ***
3 Stanford 2.052 2.046 2.058 ***
4 Princeton 1.992 1.986 1.998 ***
5 Massachusetts Institute of Tech. 1.672 1.666 1.678 ***
6 Brown 1.617 1.611 1.624 **
7 Columbia 1.608 1.602 1.614 ***
8 Dartmouth 1.499 1.493 1.505 ***
9 California Institute of Technology 1.350 1.344 1.356 ***</p>
<p>Yalebound, you keep making ridiculous arguments. First off, check your math again. Secondly, if you're trying to make a good argument, you really should avoid statements like this: "Princeton did not reject students it decided would be going to Yale or Harvard." I'd like to see some factual support of this aside from that garbage study that ridiculously "proves" that Princeton games the system. I've shown how this is wrong before, look it up. </p>
<p>Finally, of all the rankings you can look at, revealed preference is quite possibly the worst. I think Yale is a wonderful place but if you're planning to major in physics, math or engineering, do you honestly believe that Yale is still the better choice just because a bunch of other kids have? Each of these colleges are best for different people and you should really make the choice on your own.</p>
<p>Harvard has regularly taken 3 out 4 common admits from the YPSM group in recent years, usually having the largest edge againt Yale and the tightest battle with MIT over science concentrators.</p>
<p>pdaddy, which Revealed Preference Ranking of Colleges are you referring to? The NBER study I refer to had a maximum of 2800 (Harvard). Yale was at 2739 (61 pts behind H), and Princeton 2607, (132 pts behind yale.)</p>
<p>Obviously, Yale and Harvard segregate out from Princeton on the scattersheet. all three, plus Stanford, segregate out from the other Ivies. This is the way god meant it to be.</p>
<p>I think the NBER ranking is the best out there, but it's an overall ranking. MIT and Caltech clearly have a valuable niche. I believe in a liberal arts education, even for engineers and scientists, at least those who will be moving on to more specialized graduate studies. </p>
<p>Princeton is marvelous school, which many, but not most, choose over Yale or Harvard when given the chance.</p>
<p>I guess I was looking at the wrong table but still, I find it hard to trust a ranking that Brown ahead of Columbia, Dartmouth, Cornell, UPenn and Caltech.</p>
<p>Agreed, it's dubious that Brown would rank above Columbia academically, but Brown is a hot school now, and the NBER study merely states that students choose it over Columbia. Not eveyrone loves NY, esp Morningside Hts, and after 9/11.</p>
<p>Imagine if Yale didn't have to overcome New Haven vs. Boston. It's amzing how succesfully it competes for talent with H given what most would consider the negative of its location.</p>
<p>Agreed, but in comparison to Harvard and Brown, none of the ivies really have great location. Yale's in New Haven, Princeton in a small town, Columbia and Penn in not-so-hot neighborhoods while Dartmouth and Cornell are in the middle of nowhere.</p>
<p>Good points, with one exception. Princeton New Jersey is a safe, suburban location not too far from NY and Philly; Probably not that different from the upsacle 'hoods that many applicants come from and feel comfortable in.</p>
<p>Its amazing the lenghts people will go to promote their programs. The 2 most widely read and used US Rankings (US News and Princeton Review) place Princeton at and ahead of H and both ahead of Y. The third most widely read poll (Atlantic Monthly - based in Boston) puts Princeton ahead of both. The highly respected Fiske College guide states Columbia is close to taking Yale's place in the Big Three. Its a highlighted opening statement. </p>
<p>I repreat, Princeton will always be number 1 because it is the only school (of the Big 3) with a total, undivided undergraduate focus. Those talented students who strive to connect with faculty know this. GCs at top high schools are obviously aware of this as well. This is a fact that no pathetic poll can counter. Accept it, its reality. You'll live longer.</p>
<p>"The 2 most widely read and used US Rankings (US News and Princeton Review) place Princeton at and ahead of H and both ahead of Y. The third most widely read poll (Atlantic Monthly - based in Boston) puts Princeton ahead of both. The highly respected Fiske College guide states Columbia is close to taking Yale's place in the Big Three. Its a highlighted opening statement. "</p>
<p>And the NBER ranking shows that when deciding where to go, people don't pay attention to your favorite polls. Unless you are prepared to argue that students deciding where to spend the next four years of their life know less than your poll takers, I'd say you have a weak case.</p>
<p>But, attending Princeton is an incredible privilege, which many will prefer over Yale and Harvard and elsewhere for sound reasons.</p>