ED2 Dilemma: Swarthmore vs. Pomona (vs. Bowdoin + Haverford) plus D3 XCTF

College Search & Selection
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Desperately searching for some ED2 advice as I grapple between applying to either Swarthmore or Pomona. For Context:

  • Attends small, highly-ranked, new england boarding school
  • Looking to eventually study neuroscience (on the pre-med track, hopefully towards an MDPhD!), but will be applying into environmental science as my major.
  • Am hoping to walk onto a D3 XCTF team, with current times of: 5k = 19:54 ; 3km = 12:01 (last season when I wasn’t as fit, going to improve this !)
  • 3.91/4.00 unweighted GPA, with nearly all advanced courses (no APs offered)
  • 1570 SAT, National Merit Semifinalist

Coming from a very kind, tight-knit community of less than 400 students (small new england boarding school), I am looking for a place that easily feels like home. Looking for the balance of being able to passionately pursue XCTF, while still being able to fully engage with serious undergraduate research and rigorous classes across all disciplines. Learning about STEM, but also history + language + visual arts are important to me, and I want that academic rigor to foster collaboration, rather than competitiveness.

Currently leaning towards Pomona for the driven, “happy”/kind student body (which I hear is present at Swarthmore, but in a more “quirky” way?) and their Neuroscience program, but I feel so at home on the East Coast, which really scares me. I am worried I will commit to Pomona and end up hating it in SoCal… that being said, I loved both campuses when I visited. Also, I live off of the four seasons and long trail runs in the woods, so I am worried I will feel stranded in Claremont, versus Swarthmore with their own 220-acre forest.

However, have also heard Swat is very intense with it’s academics, and it can be hard to get high grades. Then with Pomona being equally as rigorous, but fostering a better life balance: more prioritization of social life ad athletics. However, I like the small-school social scene, and wonder if with the 5C’s Pomona might feel too much like a mid-sized university? Also would prefer proximity to Philly vs. LA, particularly as I do not yet know how to drive (oops), but am curious on people’s thoughts about internship availability between the two cities.

Additionally, I also loved interacting with the students and especially the XCTF athletes at Bowdoin and Haverford, having known people who run on both of their XCTF teams. In some ways, I would almost rather go to Haverford than any of the other schools, but am definitely applying to all four schools for RD… so I guess l am leaning on going for a more selective, prestigious school for ED2??

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Did you apply anywhere ED1?

Pomona has many things going for it but the commute into Los Angeles is an hour on a good day, LA traffic is no joke. If access to a city for internships is an important criteria, I wouldn’t chose Pomona. Of course, you can always do internships over summers and not be tied to your campus so that is a way to get around that issue if you were to chose Pomona.

I would also look at placement from your high school. My kids’ east coast private schools have good placement to Swarthmore but not Pomona.

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Yes, I applied ED1 to Brown but did not get in. However, it was almost relieving news, as I had realized (too late) through the application process how important both the small-school environment and being able to run on a varsity team was to me. My college counselor tells me it would be marginally easier for me, personally, to get into Pomona.

For context, the acceptance rates for our students into these schools are: (Swarthmore 28%, Pomona 21%, Haverford 63%, and Bowdoin 42%). Brown was actually 27% as well, but 5 out of 6 highly qualified applicants that I know of got rejected this ED round…

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My general belief is that a student should only apply ED to a school if both of the following is true: (i) It is clearly their top choice (or for ED2 their top choice not counting whichever school they did not get into ED1); (ii) They know for sure that they can afford it.

I will assume that finances are not an issue for you. I will also assume that this is true through 8 years of university (including medical school) so that saving college $$ for medical school will not be an issue.

This leaves the issue: Which school is your top choice? This might mostly come down to: where would you be comfortable?.

In terms of “a more selective, prestigious school” any of the schools that you have mentioned are generally considered prestigious. However, prestige is mostly of interest to high school students, investment bankers, and management consultants. Since you are only going to be one of these for a few more months, and you do not appear to want to be either of the other two, I would suggest that prestige really should not enter into your choice. Where you want to be and where you will be comfortable is way more important.

Any of these schools will prepare you very well for medical school. So will at least 200 universities and 100 other LACs in the US. All of these schools will have very strong students in large number in the premed classes. All will have very demanding classes.

My personal experience is somewhat slanted by having a daughter who was pre-vet, and is now in a DVM program. The pre-vet classes overlap a great deal with premed classes (I think that the required classes are all the same, some elective classes may be different). She has multiple friends who are currently in medical school, and at least one who graduated with an MD last June and is currently in residency. She also has a bachelor’s degree in neuroscience, which of course overlaps with your interest. My other daughter had a major that also overlapped with premed requirements, and also has several friends who were premed.

Premed classes will be demanding at any “top 200” university or “top 100” LAC. You should expect to see classes full of strong students and at least a few exams with a class average in the 40’s or 50’s. Some students will get 80’s and maybe even 90’s on these same exams, and some of the students who do this might not be the ones you expect (there will be some quiet students from mediocre or ordinary high schools who will surprise you).

Assuming that you get to medical school (this is by no means assured, or even likely) you will discover that the other students in the same program have come from a very, very wide range of undergraduate schools. Even at the top ranked medical schools this will be true.

You also will want to get quite a lot of experience in a medical environment. I am not familiar enough with all four of the schools you mentioned to know if there will be any meaningful difference between these four schools.

I do not understand the “applying environmental science, intend to switch to neuroscience” strategy. However, my daughter made the same switch, so it probably will not hurt.

“A place that feels like home” is definitely a good thing to look for.

If you feel at home at Haverford, and if you know you can afford it, then it might be the place to put your ED2. We are more familiar with Bowdoin (we drive by it frequently and toured twice). It is also in an attractive location, and there are four seasons there and trails through the woods to the south of the school.

If you live in the northeast, then don’t forget that the long flights to LA will get a little bit old after a while.

Mostly I would forget about “prestige” and look for “a good fit”.

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@hummingbird6 Have you reached out to the Swarthmore XC/track coach? We live nearby and I have a 2024 runner. A woman from the HS team (class of 2022) is now on the Swat XC team and her times were about equal to yours. I don’t know if she was officially recruited or if she just joined after gaining independent admission. It’s probably too late to get recruiting going even at a mid-tier (for running, not academics) D3, but I suppose it can’t hurt to reach out to the coach. The area is wonderful for running!

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Yes, I have reached out! Unfortunately, I did so too late… am waiting to hear back from them now. Hoping it could at least help a little, though. It’s amazing to hear that you know Swat runners though! Do you by any chance happen to know if the '22 runner enjoys the team environment at Swarthmore?

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What’s the dilemma? Am I missing something? “I would almost rather go to Haverford than any of the other schools…”. You have your answer right there. ED2 to Haverford or RD everywhere and sort it out after acceptances. If you are afraid to ED2 to Haverford because of some perception of decrease in prestige as compared to Swarthmore or Pomona, that’s nuts.

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So why aren’t you applying ED2 to Haverford? Seems pretty clearly your top choice, especially as you have valid concerns about Swat and Pomona.

But please clarify. Are you being recruited? Have coaches said there is a place for you at all these colleges?

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I agree with @DadTwoGirls on basically everything. Fit is key, so if your first choice would be Haverford, that’s where I would Ed2.
@homerdog has a ds Who I believe runs all 3 seasons at Bowdoin, so she might be able to offer some insight as you make your decision.

I’m a Bostonian who went to college in Colorado. Not as far as CA, but I ended up transferring home after a couple of years because I just missed the east coast. CO has more of the change of seasons than CA, but it was still hard not to be able to go home whenever I wanted. I was a really independent kid who had spent summers at sleepaway camp for years, so I wasn’t anxious or sad about being away from home, but I realized the east coast was more my thing and I never looked back.

All of this is to say, go with your gut and go with fit. You are smart to be looking for school/life balance!

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I am being recruited at Haverford. Pomona reached out with interest for me to try out? So probably more of a walk-on situation. Swat and Bowdoin I have not really heard back from, but I would likely be able to walk on to their teams.

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@Joshdent @Lindagaf Oh but to further clarify! I think I could more easily get into Haverford RD (stronger relationship with my hs, plus just slightly less selective). That is what has informed my plan to potentially?? pursue ED2 at another school, to increase my chances of getting into somewhere with a stronger Neuroscience program(!) and higher med school acceptance rate (now 75% at Haverford, vs. 77 Swat, 85 Pomona, 87 Bowdoin). I guess the only thing is that I worry I may regret not being able to attend Haverford if I do actually succeed in reaching a more selective ED2 school, but that being said, I do love both Pomona and Swarthmore. The “in some ways” with my Haverford statement is still there for a reason, (it’s not a clear top choice with less neuroscience professors + less visual arts + i like the campus less), but I can’t deny it feels most like home.

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You’re being recruited by the school you like the best.

What’s holding you back? From what you have said, you’re very concerned about prestige. Haverford is very prestigious. All these schools are very prestigious, so it’s splitting hairs.

I’m not a specialist in athletic recruiting. I can share that in the years I’ve been on this site, I’ve seen too many posts from disappointed students who thought they were assured a spot as a walk on. More often than not, they don’t get in at all. You’re talking about very competitive colleges.

I personally know six students who have been blindsided by “assurances” that they could walk on, or that they were going to be admitted because they have soft support from a coach. Two ended up scrambling last minute to find colleges to attend. One took a forced gap year. Two others ended up at totally different colleges, not their top choices. One didn’t get on the team despite assurances that she just needed a certain ACT score, got on the team at a different school she “settled” for even though she didn’t like it, hated it, and transferred to a state school closer to home.

If Haverford has been recruiting you, frankly I’m surprised you didn’t ED1, which is typically what athletes do. That’s water under the bridge now.

A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. Go with the bird in hand at the school you like the best. Prestige is really irrelevant between all these colleges.

ETA: @hummingbird6 acceptance to med schools is not based on the college you attend. It’s based on GPA and MCAT scores. The percentages of med school acceptances at the various colleges you mentioned are very similar.

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I agree wholeheartedly with @Lindagaf.

However, if it’s mostly about med school acceptance rates and you have concerns about being far away (Pomona) and the academic intensity vibe at Swat, and you are totally determined to ED2 somewhere other than Haverford, then I would go with Bowdoin.

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“Medical school acceptance rate” can be gamed . Also, medical school acceptance rate will depend a great deal on which students attend the LAC in the first place. As one example students who have very high SAT scores (1570 definitely counts as “very high”) are more likely 4 or 5 years later to have very high MCAT scores. Also, all of the rates that you have quoted are really, really high rates. A 75% acceptance rate for medical schools is basically insanely high.

You might want to think this over carefully, then put everything aside for a few days. Then apply ED to whichever school you actually want to attend.

In terms of “being well prepared for medical school” and “improving your chances to get accepted to medical school” you are comparing four superb schools, all near the top of the list of at least 100 LACs that also would be very good.

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@Lindagaf Hmm, thank you! That is very helpful perspective. I actually hadn’t even been considering Haverford at the time of my ED1 applications, so that’s why for that one haha. I will make sure to keep the athletics thing in mind… that does make a lot of sense.

@CTCape @DadTwoGirls Thank you for your wisdom, as well!! I think, though, the one factor that does remain important is that Pomona undeniably has a stronger Neuro program than both Haverford and Swarthmore. I recognize that as top LACs, my education is bound to be incredible if I can get into any of these schools, but I suppose I have just been told to prioritize the strength of my specific major’s program… Which makes Pomona and Bowdoin better choices. In particular, I find the research that Pomona’s professors engage with more interesting and aligned with my future career plans (nutrition/lifestyle to prevent neurodegenerative disease and cancer). However, I do think I preferred the “vibe” at Haverford > Pomona ~>= Swarthmore > Bowdoin.

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Haverford is the obvious choice. It’s such a great school. I’ve heard relatively negative things about the Swarthmore experience from both students and faculty and Pomona is impossible to get into.

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Be careful though, Haverford and Bowdoin are known among high-academic D3 circles as schools where the coaches have the lesser pull in getting a student in. Certainly, you’re competitive at all these schools, but so are lots and lots of other kids. The advantage of recruiting at a Nescac/similar school is that you can have the coach help you become one of those 8% that are eventually admitted. So, that the Haverford coach is actively recruiting helps – some – but not as much as it would if you were looking at Amherst or Wesleyan etc. Speaking of, Amherst has an amazing neuroscience program. And the area for running can’t be beaten. Have you looked there?

Swat coaches do have pull with admissions, though now that ED is over, I’m not sure how that would play. The '22 runner we know is really happy with the team dynamic at Swat. My understanding is Pomona coaches have slightly less pull than the athletic nescac schools, but more than Haverford.

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So you would have full coach support in the ED2 round? Have you asked the coach if that full support extends to the RD round?

I know you said you think your chances are still decent at Haverford in RD because your HS does well there (and that could be true)…but any of these schools will have low RD acceptance rates (low single digits) for unhooked applicants (if you are unhooked at Haverford in the RD round, meaning without coach support).

How have you measured the strength of these undergrad neuroscience programs? I can’t imagine there are significant differences in quality across these schools.

Regarding the med school acceptance rates, unless you did a deep dive into the data the numbers you cite are likely not apples to apples. For example, do they include all students who applied (regardless of grad year)? Does it include students who did an SMP or post bacc? (it should, and these students often have higher acceptance rates than students coming directly out of undergrad) Does it include MD and DO applicants, or just MD? Does it include MD/PhD apps and/or other health professionals? Which of these schools, if any, gatekeep applicants using their committee letters?

There are more considerations, but my point is unless you are certain about what’s in the numerator and denominator of these numbers you can’t compare them. All of these schools have excellent pre-health programs and preparation.

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None of these schools are going to be slackers in neuroscience. Your med school admission is going to be much more impacted by what you are able to achieve as an undergrad, quite frankly. A happy student who loves their school is more likely to be productive in all aspects of life. Furthermore, if med school is the goal, you don’t apply to med school with the intent of being a neurologist, if that’s what your plan is.

My honest opinion is that you will be making a mistake not to ED to Haverford. You’re being actively recruited. It’s in a location you like and it feels like home. That’s a ringing endorsement. Of all the kids we see here who are intent on applying to elite colleges, very few say that a particular campus feels like home. And even when they do say it feels right, they ignore that in favor of alleged prestige, often to their detriment.

Not trying to scaremonger. This situation is akin to having a (near certain) winning lottery ticket in your hand, and instead taking a risk on scratch cards. You’re lucky if you win a buck.

Anyway, you sound like a great student and hopefully you have safeties in mind in case none of these reaches pan out. Best of luck!

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Ohh wow thank you, that is really helpful to know. And that is amazing to hear that the '22 runner you know loves it at Swat! :slight_smile:

And yes, I have looked into and visited Amherst, but it just didn’t end up on my list. I didn’t love their campus nor the Amherst area as much as a bunch of other schools on my list, and didn’t need another insanely difficult school to get into, haha! It is an incredible school, though, ofc!