<p>My D gets to attend a wonderful private school (one of the oldest and most selective in Canada), but… they offer few AP courses. I estimate about 20% of the students go on to top US schools (by Canadian standards, it’s quite significant as the vast majority of Canadians opt for their provincial university, all are public). </p>
<p>I liked that few AP courses are offered, for various reasons (but that is a different thread). I learned on CC that adcoms judge students in the context in which they go to school (if your school doesn’t offer AP, so be it). But I have since discovered that the kids at D’s school with US schools as a goal take boat loads (7, 9, 15 in one case!) of AP exams despite the courses not being offered. </p>
<p>So a few questions for you amazing parent experts out there:</p>
<li><p>What role do you think “context” plays in this situation? I think it’s known to adcoms that AP courses are not as much the norm here as they are in the US, and one can readily see that APs are very limited at this particular school. On the other hand, if past applicants from this school managed to take so many anyhow, does that become the ‘context’ to which one is judged? </p></li>
<li><p>How where and when do students manage AP exams in courses not offered at their highschool? Online? Self-study? When? I don’t get it (especially when I see what they are required to take each year just to meet the provincial curriculum). As an aside, cc courses are not an option here without a HS diploma. </p></li>
<li><p>Is it your judgment that students on CC are honest with their stats? I have found various students from D’s school on this board who not only report tons of AP exams, but such high scores too (and I suppose, to be honest, I’m secretly hoping they are exaggerating :)). </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Thank you so much. You have collectively been a terrific source of information to me (not to mention fun to read!).</p>
<p>Do the schools she’s applying to require SAT II’s (subject tests)? That would be another way of demonstrating that she’s “got the chops”. My son took 4 of the 6 AP classes his HS offered. He refused to take AP Bio because of disinterest in the subject and still was accepted everywhere he applied, even though they all said they expected the most rigorous curriculum offered.</p>
<p>I guess what they’re also looking for with AP grades and scores is ability to do college level work. I do think it’s out of hand though, to expect kids to do 4 years of college level work in order to get into college.</p>
<p>Could your school’s GC give you some insight into this? He/she might know whether students from your school are much more successful in US college admissions if they go the AP testing route. It sounds a bit much to me.</p>
<p>It may be that kids are self-studying, but it may also be that your courses are taught on an advanced enough level that they can take the exams without too much extra prep. See if you can find some students to ask or if the GC can shed some light on the situation. You can also look at AP review books and see how the curriculum compare. The nice thing about having the exams under your belt is that you can get credit and/or be a position to take more advanced courses.</p>
<p>If the private school is excellent, it should be possible for your D to take AP exams and do well on them without taking an AP class. Often, highly rigorous, challenging classes prepare a student as well as an AP class, sometimes better. The issue is to find out what the two curricula are supposed to cover. If they are in general agreement but there may be something extra on the AP curriculum, it is possible for a student to self-study, using the AP curriculum as guide. There are commercially available books for that purpose and they do not cost a ton of money. As well, the College Board publishes something called the Acorn book (because it is decorated by an acorn) for teachers for each subject. I believe Acorn books can be read on the CB website in the educators’ section.
My S self-studied for the AP-Calculus BC exam with the help of a retired teacher who had a bank of previous problems. He read the textbook, did problems which his dad assigned and corrected and practiced on old exams that the teacher sent and corrected.
S’s friends took a total of 18 APs! Some were self-study because they were not offered at his school. Asked why he took so many, he said he had nothing better to do (but was involved in lots of ECs anyway). But I don’t recommend it.</p>
<p>Very interesting questions. I really have no idea if colleges would know that kids from this h.s. routinely self study for APs and would thus expect your D to do so. I really think the GC should be asked about this, as well as an admissions rep or two from colleges she may be interested in attending.</p>
<p>As to the idea of taking APs without a class, it might be worthwhile. If her school is a solid one, chances are much of the curriculum is being covered at a high level. THe College Board website has loads of AP info and past tests that you can look over. D can also look through some of the AP prep books out there to determine if she could reasonably score well without killing herself.</p>
<p>I know at D’s school, which is not pushing tons of APs (only offers about a dozen) the girls in the highest level junior English are encouraged to take the AP English language test because most of the material is covered & girls routinely score 5s. In fact, some classes your D takes may be tougher than the AP curriculum required by the College Board. Plenty of schools don’t like the “mile wide - inch deep” approach to a subject that is fairly standard for AP courses. Yet their students can score quite well independently on the exams.</p>
<p>If you take tough courses in the relevant subjects, it’s not all that hard to take and do well on the AP exams. A little time with many of the commercially available review books helps. That’s certainly true of courses in subjects like US History, European history, English Literature, and foreign languages. </p>
<p>Indeed, if you are interested in a particular field and have read a lot about it, it’s possible to do well on the AP. Again, it may help to spend a little time with a review book. My kid took the AP in US government because kid is a political junkie and got a 5. Never took a course and did no review. Just is very, very interested in domestic politics and follows them avidly. A friend who is very interested in art history and has read extensively in that area as well as spending a lot of time at the museums here in NYC did the same on the AP art history exam. </p>
<p>In both cases, the kids felt that saying “I am interested in X and do a lot of reading in that area on my own” was more impressive when backed up with a 5 on the AP. </p>
<p>Another friend could not take physics at school because the class conflicted with something else he wanted to do. He self-studied–he’s a genius in science–and got 5s on both the Physics B and C exams. (I don’t know if both are still offered.) Again, he knew he had mastered the material–with a little help from the physics teacher when he couldn’t work something out–but getting those two 5s removed any doubt that he had learned the material. </p>
<p>Of course, there are also kids who self-study just to take the exam. That’s less common, but some do it. </p>
<p>I don’t think it will hurt your D not to take the exams, but I do think taking them can help. If her classes are rigorous, have her download some practice exams in subjects she excels in.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for your thoughts so far. I am always blown away but the breadth of knowledge on CC.</p>
<p>It would never have occurred to me the curriculum could be sufficient for AP exams. I suppose it might explain a few, such as French or English, but definitely not say “US History” and “US govt” (ones I’ve seen they’ve taken!). Nor that one could excel by passion or outside interest (I think I over-estimated these exams perhaps). I’ll have to have a look at some. </p>
<p>I understand that taking AP and SAT IIs would demonstrate ability for college level work. So by that logic, they should care about doing well on some, not necessarily <em>how many</em>, correct? </p>
<p>I think if AP exams or courses provide gifted students with truly needed challenge, it’s a fabulous thing. If it’s now necessary for admissions, then it’s what one has to do. But I suppose I’m not a fan of examining out of college courses just for it’s own sake (it’s not a race and HS has enough other sources of stress).</p>
<p>A lot of it really is that grading systems vary a great deal. As I’m sure you know, Canadian schools tend to give lower grades than US schools. While US colleges that receive lots of applications from Canadian schools know this, those that are unfamiliar with them may not “adjust” the grades appropriately. When a college is unfamiliar with your school or when your child is homeschooled, standardized test scores provide what in effect amounts to an alternative grading system. </p>
<p>There are also bright kids like mine who learn the material but get lower grades because they don’t do some of the homework. There are also kids who may struggle with a subject for two-thirds of the year and then suddenly “get it.” There are even cases in which a kid gets a low grade simply because the teacher doesn’t care for him or dislikes his writing style. In all these cases, the AP offers a chance for the student to show that the material was mastered. </p>
<p>As I’ve already said, sometimes the kid just is INTERESTED in something. Some of the kids in your D’s school may simply have been interested in US govenment and history. A few may have American parents who felt that it was important for their chidlren to learn US history. (Many of the immigrant kids here take the AP or SATII in their native languages. Some have gone to Korean school or Japanese school , etc. their entire lives. This was NOT done so they could do well on an AP test!) </p>
<p>Of course, it’s more impressive to do WELL on lots of APs! But taking a lot of APS and getting a string of 2s and 3s on them isn’t going to help at selective colleges.</p>
<p>Oh, and SAT II scores are based on high school courses. They don’t assume college level work.</p>
<p>Oh, you’re right, jonri, about the SAT II’s. Well one advantage of having those AP credits is greater flexibility, like if a student wanted to spend longer studying abroad or doing an internship.</p>
<p>If you’re from French-speaking Canada, she should definitely consider the French AP exam.</p>
<p>Let me share my experience. Our high school (large urban well regarded public in the midwest) offers very few AP classes. The offer math, for. lang., US History. My son did not take any AP exams his junior year. He did not take any SAT IIs. He had excellent test scores, a great GPA and good ECs. He was not interested in applying to Ivy schools, but did apply to Swarthmore, Middlebury, Oberlin and Rochester. He was waitlisted at Swat and admitted everywhere else. He was even interviewed for a special scholarship at Rochester. </p>
<p>My point is that I think school DO look at you in the context of your high school. In spring of his senior year he did take the AP exams in French and Math BC, both classes at his school. In addition he took the Eng. Lang. test without the class and without any prep and got a 5, so it is possible to do well on the exams without necessarily having the class. He was advised that the Eng. Lang. AP test was easier to do without the class than the Eng. Lit. class. However, my older son took both and got a 5 on Eng. Lang. and a 4 on Eng. Lit, again without taking the classes or doing extra prep. </p>
<p>To the OP, I think your son will be fine. If he is interested in taking AP exams in spring of junior year even though he didn’t take the classes, he has nothing to lose. The score are only self reported. If he does poorly he doesn’t have to tell the schools that he took the exam and since he didn’t take the class they won’t be expecting him to. He should take the hardest classes that are available to him at his high school. He will be evaluated in that light.</p>
<p>Star, I am sure your GC knows this, if the school is sending kids to the US, but Canadian schools do need to be sure to show the letter grade, not just the numberical percentage or it is misleading- best is to only show the letter grade, as Americans will tend to psychologically discount that 86% A when in reality Canadian schools simply grade harder and score lower- both in HS and comparable universities.</p>
<p>^ Most universities ask for an international school profile supplement, which gives this information, what percentage corresponds to which grade.</p>