<p>Son graduated from NC A&T and he is not black. He is a URM and did not feel out of place at A&T that is a HBCU. He graduated with a mech eng degree and really enjoyed the school. He was hired pre-graduation and had MANY interviews and offers. His research opportunities were very hands-on and the school is rigorous with maintaining their ABET status.</p>
<p>Best cafeteria food I have ever had and that includes the eating clubs at princeton (other son’s school). The profs were accessible during his time there and still are when he needs advice. Never had a TA, and the school spirit and pride rivals that of the ivies!</p>
<p>A&T grad son his working as a plant manager at a very large facility out in So Cal at a hefty salary w/full benefits including more schooling. He has received 2 promotions in less than a year and credits much of his advance to his education he received. We are strong A&T supporters.</p>
<p>If you have any questions please feel free to ask.</p>
<p>I have many relatives who graduated from A&T. They are very successful!! Never had to look for jobs…the jobs(plural) came to them. One recent grad has worked for both ELLE and W magazines. The best kept secret. And yes! The food is amazing. </p>
<p>Ok, so everyone, I have not ditched the conversation. I have read, just not replied because I’m at work! </p>
<p>However, visits to a state public (OSU) and a private (UD) are planned in September. Visits were made to Purdue and U of Illinois already. Purdue is definitely top of her list right now. But, we do understand the reality of the situation. One thing that bothers me about OSU is it is so elite anymore. Many good kids in the state do not get into main campus. OSU seems to think if it attracts smart kids, they’ll be richer and able to pay higher tuition. (IMO)</p>
<p>DH sees co-ops from various schools in his job. That is where his strong opinions come from. Granted, there are many factors at play, and his own highly-ranked school degree has only influenced his career to a degree. </p>
<p>DD has taken a test prep course in the past, has been back to school for a couple weeks already, and is working on ACT prep when she can. She has AP physics, calc, and chem this year. So, that takes time. But should also theoretically help the scores too. She understands where her weaknesses lie. I do want to say that I get the feeling that the only people on this board are parents with students who score very highly on ACT/SAT. And somehow a 27 is regarded as “oh, what a shame”. You know, maybe that is how it’s regarded amongst college admissions people, but THAT is the shame. I guess I can sit here and be unhappy with the state of higher ed, or I can do something about it (and having kids study harder for ACT/SAT is not what I was thinking of). What that something might be, I don’t know. I can certainly vote with choosing where my dollars go. </p>
<p>For those who have asked for more detailed info on income and savings, I prefer not to share that online. But someone’s estimates above were definitely high.</p>
<p>@PurpleTitan What do you know about the 3-2 programs? We were looking at one. The curriculum is great and would theoretically make for a better engineer. But they are admittedly incredibly challenging too. The one I looked at was mostly a physics major.</p>
<p>There are a lot of staggeringly high stats on CC, that’s for sure. I’ve never told my kid about this site for that reason - don’t want to shake her self-confidence (because she is doing her best already).
Sounds like OSU is like PSU - can be hard for in-state kids here to get into the main campus too.</p>
<p>I would be careful with 3-2 programs. Either the last two years are extremely busy or the degree doesn’t really equate academically to a traditional engineering program. Also, I think it is useful to get a taste for the subject earlier in the program…what if the fourth year comes around and the student finds out that engineering isn’t for them?</p>
<p>Janniegirl, I didn’t mean that the 27 was ‘oh what a shame.’ More like ‘oh what a shame if you are looking for big merit $$.’ I hate the study test prep rat race that college apps involve these days. But that is the reality on the ground and you have to live with it. I have 2 kinds of kids. Neither is an ‘eh, scored 35 on a bad day taking it cold’ kind of kid. But both do have the kind of smarts to be able to study into high scores. One did just that, spent countless hours prepping on her own and was one and done with great scores. The other rejects all that as superficial nonsense that he won’t be a part of. He scored OK despite his refusal to prep one bit, but nothing like D. </p>
<p>These days getting into our flagship with a 27 would be no sure thing. And we aren’t in CA, NC, or MI. It’s bottom quartile for admitted and 1 pt above it for enrolled. It is crazy, I know. I guess the alternative is to look at test optional schools. But the catch is you may still have to submit scores to apply for merit at many of them.</p>
<p>About 3-2 programs - find out what the fine print is on the second (2) college is from that college.
I have heard stories of kids in 3-2 finding out after their 3rd year that there was some standard that it turns out they didn’t meet for acceptance to the graduating college.</p>
<p>@celesteroberts My point is why should a 27 ACT even have to consider a test optional college? That is insane. But we seem to be perpetuating this mentality. That’s the shame! </p>
<p>“Practicality suggests that, when operating under very limiting cost constraints like the OP, mentioning any option that is affordable and offers the desired academics (ABET accredited chemical engineering) should not be a bad thing. The OP can then sort out whether any secondary characteristics of the school matter.”</p>
<p>Who said it was a bad thing to mention the school at all? What’s wrong with mentioning it and saying “HBCU”? I certainly mention that Bryn Mawr is all women in the first sentence when I recommend it to students. Why would you want someone to dig into the research before realizing that? As anyone at Howard/Bryn Mawr would tell you, their identity matters a lot. You’d make a lot of enemies at Bryn Mawr calling status as a women’s college a “secondary characteristic.”</p>
<p>My daughter rejected the 3+2 programs immediately. Many LAC’s offer it, but the problem is many LACs don’t have very big science and math programs to support the first 3 years. One we looked at (very small) was touting the 3+2 and when I looked at the math department, it had FIVE professors. For then entire school. The deal was that you major in physics and then transfer to Clemson, GaTech, etc., but I don’t think there was a guaranteed acceptance. I know Tulane offers a program with Hopkins, but it doesn’t seem to have a high placement rate with Hopkins.</p>
<p>I think, @Janniegirl, that you’ve realized you aren’t going to qualify for financial aid. We’ve all been there and it is hard to accept because we’ve all heard about how much aid/scholarships/grants/prizes are available and sort of assumed our kids would get some of them. Now you can focus on aid you can get - merit, local scholarships, special talents, state prizes or incentives. You said you work in higher ed; does your institution participate in the tuition exchange? Does your husband’s firm give scholarships? If you find a front runner school early, work with the FA office and the department to see if there are dept scholarship or others the professors know about. As I said up-thread, my engineering daughter has 5 funding sources for her school, none of them need based even though I’m a single parent with two in college. I’m already looking for sources for next year to replace a $2k grant that will not be renewed. My other daughter doesn’t have as much in aid, but I’m hoping she’ll be an RA next year which will be worth $10k in room and board. If not, we’ll think of something else. Chug chug chug along. I may not be able to avoid loans for the entire 4 years, but I’m putting it off as long as I can.</p>
<p>You don’t actually have to consider test optional schools. That is just a way to reject the idea that tests define one. But a 27 definitely makes some schools unattainable. I would guess UIUC engineering would be one of them. There are many fine schools, not just top-ranked ones. You need to look at schools that fit both finances and student profile. That includes test scores at most schools.</p>
<p>Awhile back, on a slow day I downloaded all the ACT score distributions going back some years. The data lists highest score of all ACTs taken for juniors in a year. I looked at bracket creep in the top scores. I only was looking at 34-36 range. The percent of scores falling in this range has been creeping up for years. The percentage of 36s is up, 35s, and 34s. I am guessing it is the same for 30+. I don’t know that average scores have changed by much, but the test-makers aren’t having much luck keeping the right half of curve in Normal shape. Kids push themselves into higher brackets to gain admissions/scholarship advantage. Between the rise of multiple test attempts and pervasive extensive test-prepping, I think a 27 is not what it was 30 years ago. </p>
<p>I am sympathetic to your dismay at the cost. When we first started looking at this for our family, we were equally shocked. I know we should have been thinking about it from the day the kids were born, or sooner, but somehow we were not properly attentive to the rapidly rising costs. The kids had to adjust their attitudes about possible colleges. It was painful for them and us. Many parents are going through the same thing you are. Most of the pricey top privates were basically out. But you will find a good school for your daughter that she will come to love and in the end it will all be OK.</p>
A 27 is a perfectly good score at many schools, particularly strong directional Us (like Wright State, Cleveland State, or Cincinnati for that matter). It just isn’t high enough for highly competitive schools.</p>
<p>I think a few things have changed over the last 20-40 years. First are the way state schools are subsidized. They used to receive far more of their operating funds from the citizens of the state than they do today. Second, more students chose to attend in state schools when I went to school. I only knew a few people who went to private or out of state schools and most of them were from families we considered “rich”., Third the average scores were indicative of the education level students had reached. When I was in HS I didn’t have the opportunity of taking calculus let alone AP calculus B/C. There are HS around the country offering multivariable calculus. The top math course I could take was Analytical geometry/advanced math. I believe that would be equivalent to PreCalc today. I was just starting Algebra II as a junior when I took the ACT and only took it once. I scored a 25 and that put me in the top 25% of my HS class. Today kids have Algebra II as freshmen. Finally, I think there is more competition because there are just more students and the internet makes it much easier to get information and apply everywhere. The shear volume of applicants has become astounding. Since OSU now receives less money for it’s instate students there is more motivation to take the OOS (high marks of course) and charge them even more than the instate student even with the scholarships it needs to offer. Purdue, Illinois and frankly nearly all of the larger state flagships are in that same situation. 27 is a very good score and will put her in the top 25% of 95% of all universities out there, however, there are a whole lot of people desiring to get into that final 5%. When you’re looking for merit scholarships that becomes a challenge.</p>
<p>It IS scary today. I don’t know how parents of multiples are doing it, unless they are surgeons or other highly-paid professionals. We live in a modest home, but we are much older. We cannot deplete everything and leave a burden on our 20+ year olds just when they are getting established. </p>
<p>To the OP:
Some of the drawbacks of 3-2’s have been listed already:
Risky and challenging, mostly.
You might not get in to the back-end 2 (of the school you want, anyway, or maybe at all).
LAC may not prepare well.
Student may not want to leave friends after 3 years.
No chance to taste engineering classes first.
Virtually all engineering classes in the last 2 years is <em>very</em> challenging (though it’s evidently the standard 2 years for Columbia engineering majors as well).
Only one chance at a summer internship before graduation.</p>
<p>Yet some very capable kids pull it off. Some kids love the LAC environment. Could also be a way to save some money if you get a full-tuition scholarship to the LAC (fin aid at the backend school is up to them to determine, and remember that they aren’t competing to get high stats kids at that point, so they’ll give what they want to).</p>
<p>Tuition exchange is worth exploring.</p>
<p>I’m curious how H ranks engineering schools.</p>
<p>Also, lot more internationals applying to undergrad, just in the past few years (and they’re generally not trying to get in to YSU or Cleveland St.).</p>
<p>Pretty much everything at every college is a secondary characteristic after primary characteristics (from the student’s point of view) of (a) the academic offerings, and (b) admission possibility and the net price that the student is likely to get, since the whole purpose of going to college is to get educated in the desired academic subjects without breaking the bank.</p>
<p>Another is that scholarships and financial aid at the “2” school can be uncertain or worse than at the “3” school. For example, some LACs have 3+2 arrangements with Columbia, which makes a weaker claim on financial aid for transfers than frosh (and does not offer merit scholarships at all). Some 3+2 arrangements involve state universities, but these may be too expensive for out-of-state students.</p>
<p>Yep, true. I noted that above. The financial situation is more clear if you’re going to be full-pay everywhere and get a full-tuition scholarship to the LAC.</p>