<p>hoosier, I emailed customerservices at ACT to ask about that. I’ll post when they respond. I think on the corresponding report for SAT it is clear(or used to be) that they use highest single sitting.</p>
<p>Those OOS state candidates also pay higher tuition keeping the cost lower for in-state kids . . . if you make the cut.</p>
<p>Really interesting article, Hoosier. In the Michigan case it looks like the other universities are still pretty attainable for the masses which is good news and may be the case in Ohio as well.</p>
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<p>@Janniegirl: It’s not a shame, but did you look at the numbers? While it is true that a 27 puts a kid in the 87th percentile, which is great, nearly 1.7 million ACTs are administered every year. And that doesn’t count kids who take only the SAT (quite common on the coasts). Guesstimating about that and the number of scores in that mix that are multiple testers, it’s probably a fair assumption that there are at least 200,000 high school seniors in the US with better scores than your daughter. I haven’t done the math, but I’d guess that is either close to or more than the aggregate number of seats in the incoming freshman class in the entire US News top 50. (The top 20 seem to have average entering classes of 2,000 or so each so the crunch is even more pronounced there.)</p>
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<p>the issue is the chosen major and the desire for “name” programs. ChemE is one of the hardest majors out there. While we all hope for the best, her likelihood of surviving the major a at “name” engineering school is questionable unless she is strong in math. Those name engineering schools will be populated with kids who scored in the 97th percentile and higher.</p>
<p>Every year, a bunch of kids start out as eng’g majors - often because it “sounds impressive,” their parents respect the major, and the career is well-paid. However, often the math, gen. chem and physics quickly weed kids out. Freshman year it can seem like everyone is either an eng’g or premed student. When soph year rolls around, many are now business majors.</p>
<p>If I had an ACT 27 student who was serious about ChemE, I wouldn’t be pushing her into big name eng’g schools. I would find ABET eng’g schools like UCinci that are both affordable and more likely populated with students with similar stats. The program is more likely geared (not dumbed down) to those students. </p>
<p>At UCinci, only 12% of the school has an ACT 30+…that would suggest to me that they have a number of ACT 27+ in STEM majors. Contrast that with Purdue where 30% of the school has an ACT 30+…that would suggest to me that most/all of the STEM majors are from that group.</p>
<p>I realize that the dad seems to have opinions about eng’g schools…perhaps based on old info. When we all went to college, someone with an ACT 27 was a top stats student at schools like Purdue (people took the test once, and I think the highest possible score was around 34???) So, dad may not realize that his D would be weak at a school like Purdue for eng’g. </p>
<p>mom2collegekids has a very good point about any applicant, regardless of score. You don’t necessarily want your child to attend the most rigorous, selective school she can gain admission. You want her to be the strongest possible candidate for the schools that fit her best. </p>
<p>My daughter got 27 twice on her ACT. So we came up with a list of schools based on that score, her grades and interests. Since then, she has retested and her new ACT is a 31. The thing is, D’s list has remained the same. The schools that fit her when her ACT score was 27 are still her best fit schools. These are schools that are more supportive than competitive. Going for the name or prestige just doesn’t seem worth it, even though she, in theory, ‘qualifies’. The benefit of the higher ACT score is becoming a stronger candidate at these same schools.</p>
<p>I’m with @SlackerMomMD D16’s choices wouldn’t change if her 27 became a 31, but it would get her better merit at those schools. </p>
<p>@janniegirl - Not to derail the thread but you posted that you will have 2 kids in school within 2 years. So I’m assuming the second one is a Junior? Has your second child taken the ACT or SAT and if so does that child have higher scores? I would not only be looking for the first one but looking on what kind of merit the second one might be able to get. If the second one has better scores you maybe able to “save” some money that way by having the second one go where he/she can get the most merit.</p>
<p>I still don’t like some of the tone in this thread. But I appreciate the suggestions. </p>
<p>We visited Purdue and UI because a) dad went to Purdue and still has ties there to engineering faculty and b) they were in the neighborhood of UI for another event. At that time, there were no ACT scores. As someone who grew up where no one dreamed big and no one shared information about the possibilities, I have no problem whatsoever of letting her visit these places. You can’t live your life constantly wondering what it would have been like if you’d visited or whatever. I got an excellent undergrad education at a regional OOS university, not a top school to most. </p>
<p>Dad’s concerns about certain engineering schools stem from his CURRENT experience with co-ops from these schools as well as co-workers from these schools, some of which are young. He’s also aware of which companies and how many companies tend to recruit at smaller some of the lower ranked schools compared to names like Purdue. Is he aware of everything? Of course not. But that’s his frame of reference. And unless you all are engineers or engineering professors yourselves, I doubt you have a better frame of reference to work from. </p>
<p>Folks, we are well aware of what will be expected re: the rigor of the coursework. You act as though we’ve not discussed this, when yes, we have. Both I and her dad completed extremely rigorous STEM curricula, fraught with all those weed out courses. Would I encourage her to major in something I think she’ll fail at? No. Additionally, dad knows plenty of people who both scored well on ACT and poorly on ACT who went on to either fail or succeed in engineering. Test scores don’t predict everything. I tend to believe that some people are just meant to be engineers, while others are not. I base this on the dozens I’ve met over the years.</p>
<p>thanks for your suggestions. I’ll have to come back and update at some point in the future. </p>
<p>I wanted to add one more thing. While UC would be an option, I am concerned about the neighborhoods that border the school. And that seems to be a recurrent theme with Ohio engineering schools. </p>
<p>Not Ohio State? I went to school there and don’t recall bad neighborhoods nearby. Though I was in in on-campus grad housing. But still, we went off campus and around the city often. That was long ago so perhaps it’s changed?</p>
<p>Look - you started out with a money gripe. Your D is free to “dream big” RE Purdue and not being an engineer or from the midwest I have no idea what her chances are. Just know that if she dreams big and gets in you will most likely be on the hook for the full boat and have to get used to driving older cars like many of the rest of us or tell her no. It’s a trade off and at the end of the day each one of us has to decide for ourselves what our priorities are. And yes . . . many hard working parents of hard working “good” kids drive old cars and don’t go on vacation.</p>
<p>jannie, I think you are reading “tone” where there isn’t any. People here are trying to help as much as they can. Also agree with saintfan that you may have to reset your expectations, and those of your child. It’s just the way it is.</p>
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OP, Are your three children close in their age? If they are and you have multiple kids in college simultaneously for some years, your total out-of-pocket education expenses could be lower after all are done.</p>
<p>Compared to your case, one “advantage” we have is that we only have one child. But it seems your family has one advantage over us: Your family has 2 incomes while we have one income only (I think we have comparable jobs.) Another advantage we had was we started to save early when our child was a preschooler. We purchased our state’s 4-year public college pre-paid tuition plan when our child was an elementary school kid. We could afford to do so likely because we have only one child. Even though we kept trying to save as much as we could after we had purchased the pre-paid tuition plan, our financial situation was still in a quite scary state when we decided to send our child to a private college (as a full pay student for the first two years.) As of Today, we are still paying, albeit only partially now, for our child’s post-college education. I think the next spring semester will be the last time we will pay for his tuitions (partially only now) - so we kind of like paying two sets of 4-years tuitions, one for UG and the other for professional school (the latter actually costs more due to the unit loans requirement for every student on FA.)</p>
<p>No wonder we feel poorer and poorer after each year.</p>
<p>I wish I could give you a better advice, but I think I do not have it (other than just save! save!! save!!! e.g., we have not had any vacations for the last, say, 15 years.)</p>
<p>Just read this statement from saintfan:</p>
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This actually describes our situation exactly. Our kid dreamed big, and we have been on hook for 1) paying for costly ECs for many years, 2) paying for almost 8 years now - all private schools.</p>
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<p>Yes…and many also have to say “no” even if their child has worked hard and did everything right. Hopefully, mom and dad can figure out exactly how much they can pay each year. Once that happens, they can tell D that “we can pay $XXXXX per year, that is all”. If you get accepted to XXXXX school and that’s how much it costs, then you can go there. However, since some of your schools will likely cost a lot more than that, you need to also have a couple of schools on your list that will cost $XXXXX."</p>
<p>I realize that your H has encountered some less-than-impressive new hires, co-op kids, etc…but that may not be the result of their school. I come from a family of engineers…mostly in Calif. One common theme that has been noticed is that some of the new-hires seem to have an “attitude of entitlement” (maybe from all those unearned trophies given throughout childhood…lol). They often expect quick promotions and big raises soon after starting…and some are a bit flakey about their schedules and work-ethic. Some are rather disrespectful to veteran engineers and openly make remarks about the disparities in income…as if the “old guys” aren’t worth what they are getting paid…as if experience counts for nothing. My own H grew very tired of the brattiness of one particular newish hire that went on a long business trip with him. I don’t think any of this is because of their schools. </p>
<p>If your H has noticed that certain newish hires aren’t well-prepared, then perhaps their GPAs weren’t well-reviewed. I do know that my H’s company avoided hiring eng’g grads from one univ. The grads were just too weak in math. However, I doubt that problem would exist at UCinci or similar schools. </p>
<p>You might want your D to look at UAH. Very good eng’g. Located in Cummings Research Park. Smallish in size. She might get some merit from the school and CoE (in the past, there have been awards for her stats from eng’g). Lots of jobs and internship opps. Good recruiting. </p>
<p>OP, we keep hearing about your H, but I feel like we are not hearing your D’s voice here. What are her thoughts on engineering, the schools she is interested in, etc? What are HER thoughts on her strengths and weaknesses?.</p>
<p>Even the quality of some brand name school graduates are not consistent. I’ve had disappointing result with Purdue, UIUC, Berkerley. </p>
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That has been discussed earlier. Indeed, it is the case for OP.</p>
<p>@DrGoogle:</p>
<p>I can certainly see that with state schools who have a more uneven quality of the student body.</p>
<p>Then again, where I work, we had very disappointing results from a Duke STEM PhD who was also a grad from the top school in his country (basically, he was an entitled lazy bum), so no degree is a guarantee of quality.</p>
<p>Here is the situation as I see it:</p>
<p>Your EFC is approx $30K and you seem to feel that is right given your info. That generally means that is the LEAST you will be expected to pay anywhere unless your student gets merit money. At most schools, any financial aid given is reduced by merit awards. Also, many schools that give generous aid use PROFILE or other calculators that usually are not going to be as generous as FAFSA. No school guarantees to meet need as defined by FAFSA EFC, so to get a better idea of what kind of package any given schools will give you, you should run the NPCs for each school. I doubt that you will do better, however, than FAFSA EFC. </p>
<p>The first thing to face is how much your family can pay with past income, savings (both yours and your DD’s), current income (Yes, it means tightening the belt even more, and DD should we working part time too), and future income (loans that you and your DD can take–she may be limited to the DIrect Loan amounts, with $5500 allowed for freshman year. That should give you some idea as to what schools to check out. Yes, it’s a bummer that the financial situation limits the choices. But that is the reality of the situation. Your daughter’s test scores are not at the level where there will likely be guaranteed big dollar amounts of merit money and that would reduce financial aid anyways.</p>
<p>So, though your daughter should include “lottery ticket” schools on her list, she and you should realize that they are just that; unless a school both accepts her and gives her sufficient money to attend, it’s not going to happen. That means applying to schools that are affordable in sticker price or with a reasonable chance of becoming affordable.</p>
<p>Take a look at schools like Cooper Union, Manhattan College, Stevens Institute, the Maritime schools, the COast Guard Academy, and see what the possibilities are . GTech was generous with a friend’s dd with similar numbers. Being female in engineering helps.</p>
<p>I want to add that you are not penalized for earning and savings in the whole big picture. If this were the case, then give up the money, get a lower paying job and join the lottery that low income families face. If your family made so little to be eligible for a lot of financial aid, it’s still a long shot that with your DD’s numbers that a school that would meet full need would take her. Also meeting full need often requires a student contribution of $4-6K, I have seen. A person with an EFC of zero having to come up with that kind of money is often less able than someone at your income level being able to come up with $30K. As stated above, no school guarantees to meet need as defined by FAFSA EFC. </p>
<p>Good luck and best wishes. If you search for some programs, and apply to a wide variety of schools, I think your DD will have a nice array of choices. </p>
<p>I would be pretty surprised if a 27 ACT gets her in to Cooper Union.</p>
<p>Good point about the female in engineering thing, however. Especially colleges that admit by school/major. Also, many state schools seem to emphasize GPA/class rank more than test scores. So OSU engineering likely is not out of reach. Same with Purdue (getting enough merit there to be able to go is a different question, however). That’s where looking at the results threads for the 2018 class of schools you are interested in may be elucidating.</p>