<p>"We have five drivers, and three cars. Our luxury car is a Toyota Camry, that is three years old. My son's car is over 10 years old, and the other teens share my old mini-van. Do you know what it is like for them to pull up to the high school driving that? Yet, our EFC is somewhere in the $50s too."</p>
<p>So Momwithquestions, here's my question -if your dear, dear son came to you and asked for a new Lexus SUV for let's say $40,000 would you even consider the request? Would you go to the dealer and demand that they sell it to you for less? Go to your local banker and tell him that he should give you an interest free loan?</p>
<p>Why do students ... and parents apparently ... think that they're entitled to go to the most expensive college possible and not have to pay for it?</p>
<p>Cars, houses, vacations ... big ticket items that parents constantly have to downsize well below what their kids would like. But when it comes to college, the parents are right there with the kids presuming that someone else will pay the bill. </p>
<p>My parents made it pretty clear that going to college, or any particular college, wasn't a right but would be a privilege. If I did my part, they'd do their part within the reasonable parameters of our lifestyle. </p>
<p>And yeah, I might be up for "Class Wreck" in my yearbook with my ballsy 1987 Subaru Legacy wagon. Oh yeah, the chicks did it.</p>
<p>The Lexus dealer is not going to sell you a new Lexus SIV for less than a given amount. (No idea what they go for, so I have no idea what number to put in there). But you had better believe that they will try to sell to you for more than that. I'm sure there is a $3000 "play" in a car that costs that much, as we have brought down the prices of cars through negotiation, both used and new. College educations are often negotiable too. That's why there are so many threads on college costs. You just read the post from a parent whose UPenn package had some $$ even when they missed the EFC threshhold. And CMU scampered to try to come up with something comparable. It happens, and just as we read about how to come up with the best deal on a car, so we do with colleges. And some schools (the independent school where my kid go is an example) do offer interest free loans. You gotta check it out cuz first come first serve, and there funds are not limitless.<br>
For some areas, a third car is not a luxery. My son is really sucking it down right now with a car payment, insurance, and maintenance (both paper and material) costs for a car which is essential for his job since we are not within reasonable distance from public transportation, and it is not as extensive or reliable as in some areas. He could not have this job without a car since both husband and I need ours, and we cannot drive him regularly. He went the "bomb" route, and it blew up, and when a below market, reliable (yes, Subaru Legacy) appeared on the radar screen, he decided to go for it despite the monthly payment and the increase in insurance. But he practically lives hand to mouth because of this purchase. </p>
<p>I don't think most parents expect someone to step in a pick up the bill for college (though we can wish, can't we?), but we want to make sure we get the best possible deal and are as well informed as possible. Because most of us do not look at colleges until our kids our of the age, we are not familiar with what goes into it and what the costs are. We probably buy cars more often and are more aware of how to kick those tires, and banter and bargain with the car dealer, even the used car dealer, or the owner, after researching the type of car and history of the actual car. Why shouldn't we do the same for colleges,since this analogy is being brought up?</p>
If you are in a situation where you pay unusually high state & local taxes, you should apply for financial aid no matter what the online calculator or the FAFSA tells you; same with high medical bills. These are expenses that some colleges will take into consideration to reduce income under "professional judgment" considerations if they have documentation; my daughter's college pulled the tax numbers off my schedule A and reduced her EFC by more than $2K annually -- which in our case made her Pell grant eligible. So you might at least try seeing where your EFC would leave you if you subtracted those numbers out of your income and re-ran the numbers -- you can read the "Professional Judgment" section at <a href="http://www.finaid.org/educators/pj/%5B/url%5D">http://www.finaid.org/educators/pj/</a> to get a sense of what sort of expenses might qualify. </p>
<p>"Professional judgment" is entirely at the discretion of the college financial aid administrators -- they can choose to be nice, or not -- but the point is that there are ways that the FAFSA number can be brought down.</p>
<p>Its great to know that some people cannot appreciate the values of dilligence - my parents did indeed come to this country with around $500 - and this isn't fiction. We did start of with a 30k salary but they slogged enough and they improved their position. Both my parents work and work hard, this was no lottery ticket.</p>
<p>Sadly, it is those people that deny such work ethic, that belittle the success of others that seem to stay in the same position as they were in before. They choose to vent on those that have worked hard but alas this again does not improve anything.</p>
<p>I for one do not have my mind set on certain colleges. As it stands now there is a good chance that I will attend a state school, but there are always other opportunities. I'm working hard to research my college possibilities and those that cannot appreciate this - it is truely unfortunate.</p>
<p>"My son's car is over 10 years old, and the other teens share my old mini-van. Do you know what it is like for them to pull up to the high school driving that?"</p>
<p>Please, think twice. More people than you know drive 10 year old cars. In fact, more people than you know take public transportation and WALK. I apologize if you felt it was necessary to shell out 40k a year to make your son feel better about not having a new car in high school. I'm sure his peers are looking at him now and saying, "What a cool kid!"</p>
<p>Responsible kids are the ones who are realistic and proactive. Looking for "loopholes" to get money from top institutions is not being responsible -- being responsible is having the thought provoking epiphany that "downscale privates" and publics will give you a good education for a fourth of the price. Those are the kids I commend.</p>
<p>^
Agreed. I drive my mom's old car to school and I, probably along with most other people, consider it a huge privilege to have a car in high school, even if it is 10 years old. It's not a big deal unless you make it one.</p>
<p>As someone who, due to a tragic accident, comes from a family which now struggles to make $20,000 a year, it is extremely difficult for me to read people complaining about their $150-$250k incomes. Yes, I pay next to nothing to go to a prestigious school. No, it is not a good position to be in when you're not even sure your family can afford the mortgage, electric bill, and groceries. We have 4 drivers, and one car. It is 10 years old.</p>
<p>There are many posts here at CC reminding everyone that there are many who struggle to make a living, and college costs are a true burden. Many posters have emphasized that a low or zero EFC is not something to want. It is human nature to complain. Most people complaining about their incomes, know well where they are financially. When you are around people wealthier than you are, it is wise to understand where they are in terms of their issues. Not to say you cannot remind them of how much they have when they seem to lose sight, but for you to become comfortable around them, especially since you are and may be with such a crowd. Although a family who makes $250K a year, knows that it is a lot of money, when members are within their microcosm,they pick at the flaws within it. And complain about it. THe tendency is to spend that kind of money when you have it on things that make family life better, but that involves heavy financial commitment, often to the point that some of these families do not have discretionary income that you may think that they have which puts them in a situation where they complain. You see, when you have a high income, you incur the responsibility of keeping the standard of living that income provides, which means saving and investing to do so. IT involves financial decisions and discipline. When you buy a house in a neighborhood that is safe, in good shape, provides services, it comes with financial responsibilities too. Keeping that income is often stressful.</p>
<p>To compare these problems with those who truly do not have enough money to meet very basic needs certainly shows the former to be petty. But people do not think with that perspective. They have their personal goals and problems to solve and are looking for those solutions that fit in their world. And they are right to do so. Even if I had billions of dollars, I don't think I would want to pay extra for things. I would want to manage my money. I would check excesses and "leaks". Many families I know who have a tidy sum squirreled away, are very active in reducing their costs. That's why, in part, that they have that money. And in doing so, there will be complaints. Complaints are not necessarily bad. They are often the precursor to identifying an issue that is a problem, and hopefully correcting it. And it doesn't help a person who has an immediate problem to tell them they could have done something to have prevented it. Suggestions for future action can help. So even if you have a lot of money, if an unexpected cost springs up, it can be a problem. And if unanticipated, you may not have the money to pay it. You may have to go through a lot of trouble to pay it. So,you, complain. It does not diminish the trouble and problems of those who are at an income level where it is difficult to meet even basic needs.<br>
When my brother was in Korea, and on the North Korea border, he saw many who were starving. They had nothing to eat and were scavenging for bark, grass, anything. He has seen this often as he has gone to many third world countries spending his money to help on many occaisions. But he still complains about the food he has gotten there. Some of it has made him downright sick,and you had better believe he was complaining big time with his gastric issues, even though he is well aware of his situation compared to others there. Just as many of the soldiers stationed in Korea getting their 3 squares will complain, even though they very well know how much better off they are than so many right there. .</p>
<p>My family is in a fairly high income brancket (250k+ b4 tax), but my parents certainly did not start off that way and worked for everything they got (had a total of 15 siblings, both in mid-low income brackets). Despite a rediculous efc and the fact that my parents can pay for school, Ill be paying a good part. Yet they paid for their schooling and did quite well, and expect the same from me. Theyll cover it, but expect atleast half of it back, thus making me haveto decide just how much in debt im comfortable with.</p>
<p>To add, I have 2 other brothers in prep school. My parents pay for education. Almost all luxuries I have paid for on my own from work for the past 5 years or so. I dont have a car and havent once considered asking for money to get one.</p>
<p>I trust my parents decision to invest solely in education because they know it was their most lucrative investment.</p>
<p>Yikes. $250k. I'm starting to feel poor, so it really is all relative. That is so much more than we earn my first reaction is (as a parent) that I'd just write the check and off you'd go, with your only responsibility being doing well enough in school to get accepted. No car either? You're a saint going to teen heaven.</p>
<p>First, from the forms we did last year, I think they will deduct the school tuition for your siblings from your efc, so there's some help. If you go to school w/o a car far enough away your parents can get a big discount on their car insurance; that should be money to go to your college imo.</p>
<p>Next, one of our friends is the proverbial self made man who worked himself through college and expects his son to do same. Kid got scholarships to Texas A&M, with an engineering school that is very highly ranked, which surprised me, but anyway it's way up there in the rankings and way down there in price - big savings. Kid works in the summers as some sort of campus guide/orientation person for which he gets room and board and a stipend; during the school year he is an RA, also getting room and board and a stipend. I think he also has an on campus job for a prof that pays enough to cover books and fees not covered by the scholarship. Dad pays for his car and insurance so S can drive around College Station Texas (no public transportation to speak of) and drive himself home for breaks. It all works and kid gets a good education. No debt. Sound good to you? Good luck to you cwatson; it can be done.</p>
<p>If I wrote the check for you, I'd also expect good grades and responsible behavior once you enrolled, too.</p>
<p>You see how relative this all is? If you earn $20k and can live on that (no matter how precarious), then $80k seems like enough to write the check. If you've got the $80k, then you think what is the $100k guy complaining about. That person thinks the $250k should easily be able to foot the bill. </p>
<p>I think income and expenses are like what my aunt told me when I said if I only had a bigger house it would be cleaner (less clutter). She said no it wouldn't be cleaner 'cause your stuff would just expand to fit the available space. My aunt thought a small house forced you to get rid of stuff.</p>
<p>Maybe our expenses tend to fill the available income, and it is only with great will power and planning that we can avoid that trap and grow the savings we need for the really impt "stuff".</p>
<p>Sen. Blutarsky-
Unless you killed him, Steve Martin is not dead.</p>
<p>NJMom-
Your EFC will change SIGNIFICANTLY when you have 2 in college at the same time. So, even with a high income, your EFC will drop and you can address this at BOTH colleges. That is, you can speak to the Fin Aid office at your older childs school and have them recalculate your EFC based on 2 kids in school. You should get some aid/loans or what have you based on this.</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with making a lot of money- you worked hard for it and you deserve it. Don't feel like you need to make any apologies. Congrats. </p>
<p>I am frustrated bec. my kids are 4 yrs apart, and won't be in college at the same time. Even if the older one goes to grad school and we help pay, it isnt considerded in the CSS or FAFSA. That stinks. What stinks even more is a situation a friend has (translation: stinks means I am jealous bec. its ridiculous). His younger dau is a freshman at a great college on a FULL RIDE (merit based). And now that he has 2 kids in school, he got MORE fin. aid for his older son, merely bec. he has 2 kids in college. The FAFSA doesn't ask if or how much you are paying for college- just how many kids attend. Thats ludicrous.</p>
<p>Well the car thing is a long story. Ive ended up just paying for insurance to drive my parents two cars and the gas/maintaince i cause. I seriously considered buying my own but the fact is i really hate driving if its not for pleasure - im much happier getting a ride or taking a shuttle. I've decided to instead to use the money to try and build a small coupe (going to major in eng/material sci).</p>
<p>Its interesting how my dad came from a middle class family yet has never bought a new car in his life, doesnt buy lunch, frozen instead of ordered pizza on friday, and wears 5yo running shoes (yet forks out serious $$$ for sailing stuff). </p>
<p>My mom, on the other hand, came from a lower class family and has an awful habit of buying things. The alternator belt broke on her protege then she called my dad from a jaguar dealership, he somehow convinced her to not buy one...</p>
<p>I figure I'll be OK with ~$100,000 debt as an undergrad. By then I will have lived on 10/hr for 4 years and i sure as hell won't mind giving up $20K+/yr of a $50K+ starting salary (I consider $30K+/yr post tax if ur unmarried without kids to be awsome)</p>
<p>[rant] Theres nothing I hate more than my friends being stingy because they don't want to spend "their" money that they got for cleaning the house or something else anyone living there should be expected to do!!! Their always like dude your loaded, you pay...people who don't work just do not understand. It frustrates me to know end - my parents only gave me money for skilled labor (painting/masonry/etc..all low key) that they would have otherwise paid a proffessional for [/rant]</p>
<p>Time for financial lesson 101. Go to <a href="http://www.finaid.org/calculators%5B/url%5D">www.finaid.org/calculators</a>. There is a loan calculator that will show you, using standard student loan methodology, how much it will cost you to pay off any amount student loan debt you plug in, and also how much income (salary) you will need to do it.</p>
<p>For $100,000 student loan debt, the calculator says you will need to earn $138,096 annual salary to pay off your student loan. This assumes you put 10% of income to student loan payments. If you put 15% of income, then you will need a salary of $92,064 annually, BUT the calculator says you will most likely have serious financial difficulties should you choose this route.</p>
<p>Either salary is a far cry from the $50k you expect to earn.</p>
<p>The monthly payments on $100,000 of student loan debt @ 6.8% interest for 10 years (standard methodology) come to $1,150.80 per month. Each month. For 10 years. Doesn't matter if you get married, have a kid(s), get sick, lose your job, get laid off, take a pay cut to avoid getting laid off, spouse gets sick/laid off/pay cut, etc. </p>
<p>Want to save a down payment for a house/apt/condo? Forget it. Need to go to grad school to earn more? Need a masters in enrg? Forget it or take on even more debt.</p>
<p>Better sit down with someone who knows finances AND student loan finances AND what you can reasonably expect to earn with your college major before you decide to go this route.</p>
<p>I do not believe it is human nature to complain. I consider myself very blessed. I have a lovely family, good health, a great boyfriend, and I go to Amherst College. I just wanted to try to put things into perspective for people. :-/</p>
<p>mercymom
actually
Halve the loan - It'd be almost impossible to accumulate that debt - I get half off anywhere, a perk of my mom's job (mine might also do the same if I had kids - JHU tuition grants). My first choice (slight reach), JHU, would be ~$17*4 if I paid every penny - the agreement is that I pay all I can without serious problem. My second choice, College Park, is more of a match and is free - $0, R+B might also be, a perk of my dad's job.</p>
<p>$50K loan - "annual salary of at least $69,048.00 to be able to afford to repay this loan"</p>
<p>I would hope that's reasonable for a mech engr/materials engr out of JHU or UMDCP</p>