<p>Re: educated black men returning to mentor in poor areas. Easier said than done. That certainly ties in with the Bill Maxwell series about teaching at Stillman. It's a very moving, yet disturbing series. This is the epilogue. Scroll down to the end & read the first two installments first.</p>
<p>(This was on The Dream Lay Dying thread)</p>
<p>After reading Maxwell's article, I wonder if community colleges also have taken the place of the lower-performing colleges and universities mentioned, for the more motivated students.</p>
<p>Collegial, I'd guess that all colleges, from elite to community college level, have displaced most HBUs. It's like the black ghetto of the past. The ghetto was a racially restricted area created by discriminatory laws. Black doctors & professionals lived side-by-side with lower class workers, even criminals. Once blacks were free to choose other areas in which to live, the ghetto was reshaped by economic pressure. The same holds true for the HBUs. Once blacks had other colleges happy to admit them, the HBUs no longer adequately met their needs. They don't appear to be meeting ANYONE's needs today.</p>
<p>According to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The graduation rate of African-American students at the nation's historically black colleges and universities (HBCUs) tends to be much lower than the graduation rate for black students at the nation's highest-ranked institutions. Yet the graduation rate at a significant number of HBCUs is well above the nationwide average for black student graduations, which, as stated earlier, currently stands at an extremely low rate of 42 percent. </p>
<p>**The low graduation rates at black colleges are due to a number of reasons. </p>
<p>Many of the students enrolled at these institutions are from low-income families, often ones in which there are few books in the home and where neither parent nor grandparent went to college. </p>
<p>In addition, the black colleges on the whole have very small and totally inadequate endowments. </p>
<p>They often lack the resources necessary to generate funds for student financial aid. </p>
<p>Often they are unable to furnish sufficient aid packages for upperclassmen to permit them to stay in school. </p>
<p>This circumstance appears to be a major factor in accounting for the low black student graduation rate at these schools. </p>
<p>But probably the most important explanation for the high dropout rate at the black colleges is the fact that large numbers of African-American HBCU students do not come to college with strong academic preparation and study habits. </p>
<p>The graduation results at the HBCUs are worsened by the fact that flagship universities in the southern states often tend to shuttle the lowest-performing black applicants into the state-controlled black colleges in their state. **
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In the article, Maxwell distinguishes between the low and high perfoming black colleges. This overall graduation rate from JBHE must include the higher-performing black colleges and universities, such as Morehouse, Spellman, etc, so the grad rate at the others must be much lower. </p>
<p>"But probably the most important explanation for the high dropout rate at the black colleges is the fact that large numbers of African-American HBCU students do not come to college with strong academic preparation and study habits."</p>
<p>So how to rectify this?</p>
<p>Jack was, on paper, markedly less intelligent than the average Amherst freshman, but he was accepted anyways. Call it an "emphasis on diversity," if you want; I call it "having statistics in mind."</p>
<p>This is precisely the problem.</p>
<p>Just look at studies conducted by Lani Gunier of Harvard Law School on the issue of standardized tests and its unfair correlation with socioeconomic status. According to her results a college could predict a students SAT range by simply looking at their family income and high school GPA. </p>
<p>The SATs do not accurately predict college success as evidenced by Mr. Jacks story, and these schools are doing their best to remedy that. They are progressive and are working above free market thinking because it doesnt work. It leaves too many qualified people out, and will continue to unless more schools consider economic background in admissions. </p>
<p>Yale 2011</p>
<p>I thought that black students' SATs are still lower than whites' of the same middle-class familial economic status, so maybe then SAT is not a good predictor of black student success.</p>
<p>However, some interesting statistics were recently published that showed that at one major state university, both the SAT scores and graduation rates of black athletes were significantly lower than white athletes, as well as the graduation rates. So it appeared that there could be a correlation in that case. </p>
<p>Are there statistics that tie together economic status and graduation rates for whites and Asians? The black graduation rates are well-publicized by the JBHE. </p>
<p>So how much slack in scores should then be given to poor whites to still predict success due to missed opportunites for education and test prep? </p>
<p>And what is the graduation rate among the UCLA students who received significant boosts for reporting hardship conditions starting about 4 years ago? Their overall scores and grades were lower, often at poor-,performing schools, but the school was bypassing the CA ban on AA by giving easier admission for hardship cases in certain groups from poor backgrounds in HS.</p>
<p>"Whites from families with incomes below $10,000 had a mean SAT test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had incomes of between $80,000 and $100,000"</p>
<p>
Does this trend to the fact that at some point these lines cross? Can we surmise that at $120K black income and $10K (and under) white income the test numbers are the same?</p>
<p>
[quote]
In a race-neutral competition for the approximately 50,000 places for first-year students at the nation's 25 top-ranked universities, high-scoring blacks would be buried by a huge mountain of high-scoring non-black students. Today, under prevailing affirmative action admissions policies, there are about 3,000 black first-year students matriculating at these 25 high-ranking universities, about 6 percent of all first-year students at these institutions. But if these schools operated under a strict race-neutral admissions policy where SAT scores were the most important qualifying yardstick, these universities could fill their freshman classes almost exclusively with students who score at the very top of the SAT scoring scale. As shown previously, black students make up at best between 1 and 2 percent of these high-scoring groups.
[/quote]
Yeah. I'd say there is still some work to be done.</p>
<p>First, let me say that I applaud the efforts of Mr. Jack and his family, and that he has obviously earned everything that he has gotten and then some.</p>
<p>But the idea that Amherst, Harvard, or the other "elite" schools--separately or together contribute significantly to real social change in this country by letting in a few lower income under-represented minorities is a fantasy vigorously promoted (and believed) by the elite chattering classes themselves. The real problem is not that poor black people don't go to Amherst; it is that they don't get to and finish college at all (as the previous posts indicated).</p>
<p>Of course, its their money, and they can do with it what they want. But if Amherst really wants to get the biggest bang for its buck in this regard, it should take in another full paying customer and use the additional $50,000 to support two or three inner city students for a year in community college. But of course, then they couldn't tell themselves and their friends about what a diverse place Amherst is.</p>
<p>Again this is in no sense a knock on Mr. Jack, but simply a comment on the mindset of the chattering classes that read the Times.</p>
<p>The black graduation rate at the most elite schools is very high. At many state universitites, it is very low, compared to overall grad rates. Many of these universities take lower-income less-prepared blacks in a "feel-good" kind of gesture, only to have them not make it through. </p>
<p>If these students (and many others) start at community college and get training, or transfer after receiving an associate's degree, I would think long-term outcome is much better. However, it messes up the universities' freshman admission stats and makes them look prejudicial. So it is a no-win situation. esp for the students who then don't graduate from anywhere.</p>
<p>Our flagship school does take other things into account than SAT scores.
( this is an attempt to work around Prop-200) I appreciate this, as I don't think SAT is necessarily the main indicator of how they did in high school or how much they can benefit from college.</p>
<p>My older D, did attend and graduate from a college where her grades and SAT scores were below the median for the school. ( which are very high).
While she is not a minority, she is first gen, and I believe that was taken into consideration-re her numbers. ( I really don't know if she now would be accepted there- it is a school that self selects- and the year she applied the acceptance rate was 71%, it is now 31%)</p>
<p>Ancedotally, being pretty familiar with community college myself, I think students who "have" to attend a community college, because of low high school grades, may not have the study skills to get the most out of their community college classes.</p>
<p>I know personally, several students who have attended community college for two years and transfered to schools like Uchicago and Oberlin, but - they were not minorities ( not that I think makes a difference in this case), and they had already had a rigourous high school background and came from educated families ( ya pretty much- their parents had advanced degrees- inc from Ivy schools) ;)</p>
<p>As with many schools, community college courses are uneven, and you have to be pretty focused to take the most beneficial courses to prepare you for a 4 year school. If your K-12 record isn't rigourous, ( and low income students are often not in a position where they are encouraged to take college prep classes- not that there aren't lots of programs for that- there are 4 seperate programs at my Ds school- she is enrolled in CAN which supports lowincome/minority/first gen students, but there also is a culture that equates planning for college with "acting white", so more of the minority students in the program with her- are not originally from US, but from Somalia, or Sudan.)</p>
<p>Also even in ( or perhaps especially) in my liberal district in a fairly affluent county, minorities ( most notably blacks) are given a * pass*, in some schools. Courses are changed to be "relevant", but do not support what the SATs are testing for, students are allowed to hand work in late, sometimes ridiculously late which becomes a pattern. ( and then never handed back so they can see what problems they have)</p>
<p>At my Ds previous school, teachers assumed if a student was AA, they were from a challenged family ( which admittedly sometimes was the case- the FRL rate was 47% at this school), and allowed them lots of slack. The students, not being dumb, but being teenagers, took advantage of this.- however, from by point of view, it eventually backfired as I think it undermined their view of themselves as a student.</p>
<p>Schools that have high expectations, but support student success, I think do better preparing kids for higher ed. But we have to start before college.And you have to get parents to buy in.</p>
<p>I remember reading about Cedric Jennings years ago who got a 980 SAT (mostly math) and went to Brown. He graduated with high B's and went on to 2 very good grad schools. Both Cedric and Mr. Jack were from low-income areas with bad schools but had a drive to learn. Those kids, I'm glad to see do get a chance and I don't feel like he took a space from someone else. He was wanted and he more than held his own. None of these students (and there are more than these 2) would dream of going on a board like this or have the opportunity to take SAT prep tests, take numerous tests, have their scores go up over 100 points with Ziggi methods (not knocking Ziggi) etc. If we all used our first score and had the same parents, money, schools, class size, then we can say "everything is fair", but it never will be. The narcissism in saying one deserves to go somewhere over another always makes me sigh.</p>
<p>There are states where there are programs set up to ensure transfers from community colleges to state universities for students who are not ready for 4 yr colleges after HS graduation, but are able to succeed in community college. Perhaps these are higher-level community colleges, but the courses are more closely monitored and the success rates can be fairly high. </p>
<p>Community colleges vary greatly in quality, as do students, and I am sure that any experience cannot be generalized nationally.</p>
<p>If a student is not prepared for community colege, than s/he certainly will not succeed at a 4 yr university directly out of HS, so of course the academic preparation needs to start way back before HS graduation.</p>
<p>collegialmom has identified one solution, I think.
My state is one of those working hard to ensure easy access to four-year schools for those students who couldn't qualify as freshman but who have proven themselves in two years of community college work.
I'd take it a step further, and know some who have:
If one is a highly motivated student in a "bad" public high school, I'd get out of there fast and directly in to a community college program. Some can do this as early as age 16.</p>
<p>That's a great idea for motivated high school students!</p>
<p>In most states, there are usually branch campuses of the state flagship. These schools admit kids with gpa's in the 2.0-3.0 range and SATs in the 400's, and offer great support systems. Kids can usually commute. Then if they maintain a decent enough gpa, they are admitted to the flagship, or, if they prefer (and it's less costly) they can stay at the branch, depending on their major.</p>
<p>Growing up in Connecticut, I knew many, many kids of limited means who did this. There are also lesser-tier state schools in most every state I'm familiar with, where kids with lower stats can matriculate and also get great support. Of course, they're free to transfer to more competitive schools if they wish after they accumulate a certain number of credits.</p>
<p>I'm with #70 by EMM1. The story of Mr. Jacks is great, and he was obviously bright enough to handle the work at Amherst--no problem. But I find the policies at these schools to be borderline window-dressing, and, in fact, almost offensive.</p>
<p>In terms of exposure to diversity and "food stamps," a good way for Amherst kids to see a food stamp is to work at Walmart for a summer. My son worked there for two years. It opened his eyes to all kinds of "economic diversity" he hadn't yet experienced in his suburban high school. I would highly recommend it for those kids who have been denied the experience of "economic diversity" at our elite LACS. ;)</p>
<p>Hereshoppping-- a bit harsh, don't you think? "window-dressing"?</p>
<p>If Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore and Haverford all decided tomorrow to stop admitting upper middle class kids and filled the entire Freshman class with kids like Jack it would have exactly what kind of impact on society as a whole????</p>
<p>Let the elite privates do whatever they can to admit whomever they like to achieve whatever social or other goals they have for their own institution. But, it is quite disengenous to describe the lesser tier state schools as having great support.... for whites, blacks, or anyone else. The graduation statistics at these places aren't promising-- moreover, at many of the %$&* public high schools in CT (many of which I assume you're familiar with) the idea that a kid can easily get a four year degree, even over a 6 year period, is sheer fantasy. The HS prep is so poor that these kids aren't transitioning from a CC or lower tier state U to U Conn and to pretend that it's so is ludicrous.</p>
<p>You may resent the elites for taking kids like Jack... but me, I'll save my ire for places like U Conn that have priced themselves out of reality for the average inner city kid from New Britain or Bridgeport, who couldn't graduate from there anyway given their rotten HS prep.</p>
<p>Who cares what Amherst does? The state of public education in this country is the real story.</p>
<p>I don't think that Jack took anyone's place. I think it showed why we need holistic admissions. SAT scores aren't very good predictors of college success.</p>
<p>Exactly. Who cares what Amherst does. So why the NYT and most threads here focus on "diversity" admittances at the Ivys and elite LACS is beyond me. Public education is absolutely the problem, but not too many are interested here on cc in discussing its shortcomings, I've noticed. So I thought I'd put my two cents in here.</p>
<p>I apologize if I offended the elites. :)</p>