Elite Colleges Open New Door to Low-Income Youths (N.Y. Times)

Parent Cafe
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<p>"Two students- one has a Caucasian/Asian, upper middle class background, good schools, stable home life, lots of encouragment and support from family and friends to pursue academics.
He gets a Gary Fisher, brand new mountain bike.
Next student, Black, low income background, struggling family, taunts from peers to continue academics.
He gets a Huffy bike with a bent frame and a flat tire.
They have a race- which will determine the course of their life."</p>

<p>Why does the second student have to be black? There is plenty of poverty among whites, Asians, Hispanics, Native Americans, and everyone else. I think the point is to level the playing field for all worthy students. This is supposed to be the point of "economic diversity."</p>

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<p>"taunts from peers to continue academics"</p>

<p>Why is it so hard for non-blacks to comprehend the most important part of that analogy? Yes, whites and Asians can be poor, but they can't claim to be subject to the types of taunts a BLACK STUDENT gets for EXCELLING IN SCHOOL. It's an obstacle that non-black students DO NOT have. I pose this question again: Since when does being called "white" an affront to the white kid?</p>

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<p>mattmom,
There's nothing wrong per se with the hard-working kids from Greenwich. The only problem is that there may not be space at an Elite college, even for one each, from such backgrounds representing all the combined similar neighborhoods in the country. In fact, in the long history of the Elites, it's been actually quite recent that regions outside of "Greater Greenwich' (the Northeast) were even <em>noticed</em> by the Elites -- whatever the race or income of that student, unless that student were fortunate enough to be a legacy. (And would almost surely not be poor, or be of a minority race.)</p>

<p>(So as an aside, why should the kids scoring 1500 in Greenwich --addressed to Parker, I guess, as well as yourself -- be even more of an issue than their counterparts in Boulder, Seattle, Minneapolis, Austin, or Atlanta?)</p>

<p>So of these sought-after freshman seats at elites, <em>not</em> to go to considerable length to look for the diamond-in-the-rough is to take the lazy way out & select from the comparatively upscale local jewelry store. It may even guarantee a good class, but will not address the <em>opportunity</em> factor that Elites have chosen as part of their educational mission.</p>

<p>Alchemy, thanks for pointing out that the SAT does not measure intelligence. It is, indeed, as you mention, about test-taking. The SAT is about tricks. What other sadistic exercise makes the tester jump from one discipline to the next, & back & forth, in the space of a few minutes? Not graduate comprehensive exams, I can tell you that. Not quarter or semester or final exams in undergraduate years. Not the GRE. Not many other national qualifying exams.</p>

<p>And depending on one's major, neither the undergrad nor the graduate years may be about testing. Sometimes they are far more about research papers, or lab work. In some majors they are heavily about team work. </p>

<p>And even the ACT, while less "trick"-based than the SAT, is about timing. Sorry, but never once did I have a college exam -- at one of the Elite Universities of the world -- that I had not enough time to finish. No sadistic profs.</p>

<p>One will find the occasional standardized-test-novice (such as my nephew) who never took an SAT practice test, yet sailed through. But the typical high scorer has been "practicing" -- not necessarily with the SAT format, but with timed tests -- often, and sometimes even from early childhood. And most of the high school applicants who are serious about Elites, have done anywhere from a little to a lot of structured test-prep. The better the prep (in quality and/or quantity), the better the score.</p>

<p>And juxtaposn,
It is not at all the same wall that must be scaled.</p>

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<p>In a low-performing school, even if it is predominently white, a student who is "nerdy", and academically-oriented, not an athlete, is not as socially accepted. Yes, there are taunts and bullying, etc, regardless of race. And don't forget the lack of ECs in many of the rural or poor-white schools, lack of encouragement from peers to do well academically, no test preps, etc etc. </p>

<p>It all needs to be taken into consideration. Not based on skin color!</p>

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<p>Why is it so hard for non-blacks to comprehend the most important part of that analogy? Yes, whites and Asians can be poor, but they can't claim to be subject to the types of taunts a BLACK STUDENT gets for EXCELLING IN SCHOOL. It's an obstacle that non-black students DO NOT have.</p>

<p>Asian students in our district do very well-if anything their culture supports academic acheivement to the point of having to be an over achiever to fit in at times- ( and yes I realize some parts of Asian culture more than others-)</p>

<p>AA culture in an inner city school is unlike the above, what I see this at my daughters high school- while in a liberal city-nothing like the city where our next school superintendent is coming from where a teacher ( Caucasian) was taunted and threatened so often by AA students that the district said they couldn't help her and that negative harrasment and language was * part of their culture*
<a href="http://www.sltrib.com/ci_5903404%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.sltrib.com/ci_5903404&lt;/a>
:rolleyes:
Still while she has AA friends who are taking honors classes with her- and for the most part they are not ostracized by others- although I think her "crowd" is perceived as " so not cool", it is more difficult for boys, there isn't a large peer group of academically successful AA young men.
Not to say they aren't smart- some are very bright, but some parts of "their" culture perceive, speaking standard English, a future "time orientation", discourse as racist ( and these definitions are from a biracial director making over 6 figures in the School district).</p>

<p>Jacks mother was unusual in that she not only was financially disadvantaged but she recognized early on, that education was a way to make a difference for her child, and worked extremely hard, to make that available to him as much as she could.
She should feel very proud of that.
I have seen, AA parents, some with degrees themselves, who speak out against AP classes, and discourage their kids from taking them because they are "too much work".
I advise students , often AA students at Ds school re choices after high school.
Too often, they don't realize they would like to continue their education after high school until junior or even senior year. This of course limits their immediate choices- but I try to stress , not their ultimate opportunities.
This article re Stillman- is very disturbing- but I think is well written and illustrates some of the challenges facing students even when they get to college.
<a href="http://www.sptimes.com/2007/05/20/Opinion/A_dream_lay_dying.shtml/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.sptimes.com/2007/05/20/Opinion/A_dream_lay_dying.shtml/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Some of it- I don't think, had to happen- re academic preparedness. I have seen teachers- at my dauhters previous school, allow AA students especially, to slack, to make allowances for them, when they weren't prepared. This isn't exactly a way to build discipline and academic skills. Students need to be supported to rise to the next level, rather than having the bar lowered for them so they don't have to exert themselves to meet it. That is an insult to their intelligence .</p>

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<p>I attend a predominantly black inner-city school. There is no crowd for me. I am the crowd. If I'm taunted and picked on I have no support system.</p>

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<p>"A Hope in the Unseen" part deux ? </p>

<p>Cedric Jennings graduated from Brown in 1999. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.ronsuskind.com/hopeintheunseen/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ronsuskind.com/hopeintheunseen/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>
[quote]
I hardly think that "1500 kids" from Greenwich have been discriminated against at Amherst over the last 200 years.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I guess you didn't read my post. It's not that simple.</p>

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<p>


And I guess you didn't catch today's date. It's 2007. Not 1970.</p>

<p>What was possible then ain't possible anymore. My family was able to pay private school tuition for me by writing a check from current income in 1976. That same school today is $26K for tuition. Wages have certainly not kept pace. </p>

<p>Gosh dang board lost my next paragraph. Grrrr.</p>

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<p>What was happening in my world with a supportive community and parents was not happening down by the river. Why shouldn't a "life" be considered in context? IMO we should not just look at where somebody ends up, but at where they started. Like the GWB joke I'm sure y'all love - "GWB is not that bright a fella. He was born on 3rd base but thinks he hit a triple." ;)</p>

<p>Has anybody ever seen C. Rock's set on academic achievers coming back to the neighborhood? Young man comes back from college after years away to his crack and hopelessness infested neighborhood and goes to the park whereupon he encounters a young man about his age. The young man asks where the "college boy" had been. Our hero says . "I just finished my Bachelor's and Masters and I've started working on my Phd." The other young man looks him up and down about twice and says , and Chris does this voice in a stereotypical ghetto accent, " You don't say? A Bachelors, a Masters and a P - H - D. Well ain't that something? Lemmee ax you this. Lemmee ax you this. Do you think you can whup *my * @#$? "</p>

<p>It ain't the same around my daughter's poorer friends. It's different. Let's recognize it as such. And I know that is not everyone's experience. Look at everybody holistically and in context.</p>

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<p>Oh, I see. I thought the person I quoted said the last 200 years. My bad. My H's family was not able to pay for any school tuition, let alone room and board. In 1967. It goes without saying he worked to save money for college all through high school. Ask mini how many Polish Catholic boys whose fathers drove delivery trucks there were at Williams when he was there. :)</p>

<p>Funny thing is I've never heard him once complain about his circumstances. I mentioned Williams to him several weeks ago, and he's still never heard of it. :)</p>

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<p>hh, I think I agree with you. Polish kids from poor neighborhoods would have found the equivalent of a castle wall and a moat (maybe a guard dragon) at many elite schools even in the sixties.</p>

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<p>Well, let's cut out the snide remarks and lectures then, shall we? :)</p>

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<p>What snide remarks would that be, hh? And if you felt I was lecturing, well ....I'll try to be more conversational just for you. ;)</p>

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<p>Sorry, I thought the tone was a bit snide and lecturing. Truce?</p>

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<p>"I think we can all agree that, in an academic "free market," all students, regardless of race, creed, color, or means, should be afforded equal opportunities for acceptance into their college of choice, based on their previous achievements."</p>

<p>You can "should" all day long, but then you overlook the obvious -- those who make the admissions decisions don't share your view about what should happen. Private colleges can decide who to admit. Elite colleges have lots of applicants from which to choose and admissions officers get to decide who has merit, using their standards and understanding of merit.</p>

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<p>Come to think of it, since I've been reminded it's 2007 and not 1970, I wonder how many low income Polish Catholic boys there are at Williams today?</p>

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<p>Plenty of fire here, not much light. Most of this in response to juxtaposn:</p>

<p>And I don't know how to format quotes, so pardon my basic formatted response. And yes, I'll lecture, but try not to be snide (except maybe once).</p>

<p>juxtaposn: "The issue isn't black and white (no pun intended). I'll say again: I'm not against efforts to increase diversity on-campus. I'm against affording <em>huge</em> breaks to applicants (like ignoring a 222-point SAT deficit on the 1600-point scale) just because they are financially disadvantaged or non-white."</p>

<p>Surely we can acknowledge that college students get a richer educational experience by having someone in class who has actually seen a food stamp. That's why some choose public secondary schools instead of private schools. And surely one can acknowledge that paying for a test prep. program can boost most students' scores at least 100 points; add spare time to study for the tests, and there's a 200-point differential without even factoring in school and teacher quality differences in the wealthier and poorer sides of most towns.</p>

<p>juxtaposn: "If Jack had to negotiate with gang-bangers just for safe passage home, I think he might have had a case, but he didn't exactly come from a broken home -- his mother encouraged him to perform well in school, for example, which is more than many underpriviliged children can boast."</p>

<p>How do you know Jack didn't have to negotiate with gang-bangers to get home? One can have an encouraging home environment and still have to navigate a culture and a neighborhood that is threatening to learning. Just imagine getting your computer stolen from your home the same week you have a term paper due. Just imagine having no high-speed Internet access at home (Gads! the horror! Having to go to a public library with the homeless people to do your homework!)</p>

<p>juxtaposn: "For the record, I'm lower-middle class and will graduate from college with $40k in debt."
Several elite schools are now giving heavy tuitiion breaks to students from homes with incomes up to $80,000. I'm sorry you didn't benefit from that, juxtaposn. Carrying that debt load after you graduate is a huge psychological burden in choosing a career; that's why many students and families self-censor themselves and don't even try for the more expensive schools. It remains to be seen how those tuition breaks will affect education....</p>

<p>The true winner in this story, of course, is Jack, and all of us, in understanding that he didn't start at the bottom. He came from a supportive family. And he knows "the top" is not a huge salary, or an Ivy League degree necessarily, and living in the right part of town. Rather, it's taking that work ethic and love of learning back to his community (and that is not code for African American community). It's learning to let go of any anger, jealousy and resentment that some other people were "born on third base." Jack got over that, and triumphed.</p>

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<p>


</p>

<p>Oh, but you sure threw the switch on the kliegs. LOL. The same "meritocracy" point has been argued so many times most of us can just dial it in. Stick around the parent's forum long enough , you may find some illumination after all is said and done. ;)</p>

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<p>"Rather, it's taking that work ethic and love of learning back to his community (and that is not code for African American community). It's learning to let go of any anger, jealousy and resentment that some other people were "born on third base." Jack got over that, and triumphed."</p>

<p>There aren't that many educated black men, who originally were from poor circumstances, going back to their original communities to mentor. There are a small number. but often the successful blacks go to upper-middle class communities, as is the case in most groups. Black leaders are constantly trying to get a commitment from successful black men to return to their prior communities to no avail. And why would they want to return to poorer areas? There is absolutely no obligation to do so.</p>