It sounds as though he is insinuating that because (he believes) teachers are paid solely based on seniority, then any idiot can be a teacher as long as they continue to have a pulse and show up every day. This fact, in addition to the low salary, would be a major embarrassment to a parent who views salary, prestige, and perhaps perceived difficulty of major as the most important factors driving a career choice. It would also take all the fun out of the parental chest puffing contests.
But maybe I’ve got it all wrong and he will clarify.
In Post 591 SAY writes ‘some things are more interesting. Of course it’s up to the person but it’s a fact not my opinion.’ @SAY, it IS your opinion. It looks to me like you keep digging yourself in a hole. I don’t want to pile on, because I agree with some of what you have said. Like talking with 18-21 year-olds about career choices, specifically expected salaries. And the high salaries for some state employees (though that is a rant better suited for some other forum than CC).
But it is a ‘fact’ that an airline pilot is a better job than a bus driver, even if it is better paying. Someone may hate flying, may want to be home with family every night. Or it’s not a fact that being a doctor is ‘better’ than being a nurse, or nurse’s aide.
I think, too, that it is no longer appropriate to expect a straightforward “career ladder,” which was the predominant paradigm when I was preparing for my career 40 years ago.
For example, my first husband got his first job as an auditor with PwC when he was a senior in college and retired as a partner 30-odd years later. That was the old way of thinking about “career”. I think our kids’ career paths will be much more winding than that.
More like my friend with a PhD in archeology who worked in public relations for 15 years and then went back to school at an elite university (hint, think #3) to get her MSW. Currently, she’s very happy working as a counselor for low-income clients, making a fraction of what she did as a VP in a prestigious global communications marketing firm. I’m sure that kind of career path seems impossible or even “disappointing” to some. But, from what I’ve seen, it’s becoming more and more common.
Petula if you are struggling to decide whether being an airline pilot is a more rewarding career than a bus driver than there is no sense trying to convince you of the obvious. America has been so successful precisely because the most gifted people have used their talents to advance society. This has created a vibrant economy that is the most successful in the history of the world. The elite schools contain the top 2-3%(IQ’s 125-160) of the young minds in the US and it is a waste of talent to have them performing jobs that can be well performed by people of IQ’s of 115. This is more or less exactly what is happening in much of Europe and the problems there have been widely discussed.
Wow. you do realize that there are schools you probably don’t view as elite that also have plenty of students with IQ’s between 125-160? And there are probably schools you view as elite that have kids who have IQ’s of 125 or less. So what. You seem pretty obsessed with IQ scores if you think 115 is a problem.
Sevmom please tell me the names of these schools? It is a well known fact that the big four and a few others get most of the truly gifted. Where did I say 115 is a problem? It’s a standard deviation above average and the average IQ of students who graduate from all colleges. The IQ of the typical medical student or top law student is 125-130. It’s time to stop the PC silliness of pretending everyone can do anything they want. With rare rare exceptions there are no bus drivers who are capable of flying jet aircraft. Would you want to fly in a jet piloted by someone with an IQ of 100 or have surgery by doctors with IQs of 110? While its not PC to admit it IQ’s vary widely and largely determine what jobs one is capable of performing.
Sevmom do you know much about IQ data? 135 is the 99th % and 145 is the 99.9%. These people are rare and hardly common at any state school. You just don’t know what you are talking about if you think you can compare the student bodies of the very top schools with the student bodies in flagships or honors programs. In reality for truly middle class students HPYS will usually be cheaper than the local state schools. But I do agree that a large relatively high admittance school like U of Mich will have plenty of smart people in their engineering and math programs.
@SAY, please provide your evidence for these generalizations about intelligence measurements of students at various schools. I am unaware of anything in the literature along these lines, but perhaps you are aware of studies that I haven’t seen? Please inform me.
I’m not even sure IQ is a “good intelligence test,” especially as psychometricians haven’t really settled on a consensus of what “intelligence” even is.
Studies HAVE found a high correlation between IQ and SAT. That’s why gifted programs like CTY and TIP and high-IQ vanity clubs like Mensa have accepted SAT scores in lieu of more extensive IQ testing as proof of high intelligence. But there are two major problems with Say’s quote above.
First, he hasn’t done the math. If you use the 2020 class profiles of UMich and Harvard in conjunction with SAT/IQ conversion tables, there are actually MORE freshmen at Michigan who have IQs estimated to be in the 145+ range than there are at Harvard. (Around 1,500 freshmen at Michigan with IQs above 145, compared to roughly 1,200 at Harvard in the same range.) So not ALL of the best and brightest are to be found in the rarefied atmosphere of HYPSM. In fact, MOST will be found outside of the select few “top” schools that Say is so focused on.
Say also apparently is not aware of the research that has shown that IQ is a relatively poor predictor of success for an individual, even if success is simplistically defined purely in financial terms. IQ may be highly correlated with financial success in aggregate, but IQ (even when paired with parental SES) only explained about 15% of financial success for an individual. Other, less easily quantifiable factors—personality, commitment, persistence—are likely more important. Further review of the research really does suggest cognition and competence are related but much more nuanced than the simple direct relationship that Say wants to boil it down to.
I think you may be surprised about the wide variation of IQs among different occupations. The most widely referenced study about this may be the one at http://ssc.wisc.edu/cde/cdewp/98-07.pdf , which mentions tracking professions of ~10,000 HS students who graduated in 1957, when this type of testing was more common. The 1992-94 survey of this group found all professions had at least 25% with IQ scores below 100, and among males, all professions had at least 25% with IQs above 100. So the upper 25% of bus drivers or any other profession had higher scores than the lower 25% of pilots, MDs or any other profession. HS teacher was among the highest scoring professions. In one of the Army surveys, teacher was the highest scoring profession of all.
I don’t know, sounds crazy to me. I’ll read it, but I’d say there’s something wrong with their methodology.
Are they saying that 25% of Physicists and Mathematicians have IQ’s below 100? If they are, I’d say they need to turn their credentials back in, whatever those are.
I had a STEM prof in college who boasted that he had a sub-100 IQ. One of his best-loved lectures was a methodical takedown of IQ as a credible metric of intelligence
They have a category for Natural Sciences, which includes Physics and Math. It looks like the 25th percentile score was for this group was ~93 (among males in the 1992-94 survey).
@marvin100, I’d be interested in what his main criticisms of the IQ test were.
I haven’t read anything but the OP, and I’m no expert on IQ tests. If you’ve already explained this, could you please point me to the post.
I don’t have any particularly high regard for the IQ test. I’ve met many people in my life who can do amazing things that I can’t do, and who would probably score lower on an IQ test than I would(I’m within the average range, by the way). But I still think that people who most others would agree are highly intelligent, like Physicists and Mathematicians, would score above average on IQ tests.
Are IQ tests a perfect measure of intelligence? Of course not. Obviously, the definition of intelligence is a crucial part of this argument, and that’s why IQ tests are so controversial.
My wife can learn the streets of an area we’re vacationing in after a very short amount of time, but I’m still lost as we’re driving back home. She has trouble with basic Math, and that’s a strong point for me. Who’s more intelligent? When we’re lost, trying to get back home, I’m not sure.
One other thing to point out. My lack of spatial aptitude showed up very prominently on the IQ test I took in High School. I was above average in every area except that. I can’t really argue with the results. Every time I take a vacation I’m reminded of it
I’ll read the article, but are we talking about people who showed up declaring their major as Natural Sciences and Math, or people who are working as professional Physicists and Mathematicians, as in PhD people?
Exactly. Some would like to think that intelligence is some unidimensional characteristic that can be measured in one test and summed up in one number. It’s not. My son was diagnosed with a nonverbal learning disorder when he was about 10. One of the key indicators of that particular LD is a major gap between verbal IQ (language ability) and performance IQ (problem solving). His “average” IQ was slightly above average. But that summary score represented both major strengths and major weaknesses, depending on the trait being measured.
