@SAY, I agree, there is a correlation between IQ and SAT scores (of course, whether that’s intelligence or simply that both tests cover the same things is problematic). However, you made a general claim about the intelligence level, not simply test scores, of students at different types of schools. You have not supported that claim. Please do.
Marvin that statement is so absurd that it ruins your credibility. A person with an IQ of under 100 struggles with simple algebra. To be a math or physics tenured professor one must be able to do highly complex math that is beyond all but a handful of people with extremely high IQ’s. This topic is one the most extensively studied of all areas and among the knowledgable there is broad consensus. While no one test is perfect the IQ test is an accurate and meaningful measure of g that is highly predictive about people. The recent twin studies corroborated previous twin studies and they have shown conclusively that intelligence has a large genetic component. Marvin and others are free to hold any opinion they choose but the data is not controversial. Ellie there are indeed numerous smart people in the hard science classes at Michigan but you are confusing the graduate school with the undergraduate school. At the graduate school level Michigan can easily hold it’s own against all but a few schools.At the undergraduate level they are world’s apart.
Just as a bit of anecdote on the idea that “struggles with basic algebra” means one couldn’t be a math or physics professor, I know enough math and physics professors to know that there’s an alive-and-well trope amongst them of researchers who are utterly brilliant in higher mathematics (read: calculus and beyond), but can’t do simple arithmetic or even lower-level mathematics (read: algebra) to save their lives.
(Insert something about the need for multiple measures of intelligence along multiple axes here—which, to bring it back to the original topic of the thread, the linked article basically claims is a silly and outdated notion.)
Nope, not mistaken. In fact, I took the time to look it up. Did you? You really need to take the ivy-colored blinders off and look around. Your view of the world does not square with the data.
UMich, entering class of 2016 Student Profile: The average GPA is 3.87
The mid 50% range on the ACT is 30-34
**The mid 50% range on the new SAT is 1440-1570/b.
http://admissions.umich.edu/apply/freshmen-applicants/student-profile
BTW, that’s from the undergraduate admissions page.
Not that different from Harvard:
Harvard, entering class of 2016 Student Profile: The average GPA is 3.83UW/4.29W
The mid 50% range on the ACT is 32-35
**The mid 50% range on the SAT is 1410-1600/b.
https://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=444
Really, Say, if you’re going to assert “facts”, back them up. That’s what I’m trying to do here and I’ve learned a lot by doing so. Michigan is even more impressive than I was expecting it to be, for example.
“At the graduate school level Michigan can easily hold ** it’s** own against all but a few schools. At the undergraduate level they are ** world’s** apart.”
I think you mean “its” and “worlds.” What good does IQ do if you don’t know how to spell properly?
SAY, I suspect you’ve probably never traveled much beyond your “affluent coastal California town.” If you had, you would know that there are many regions in the country where the smartest kids in the class are perfectly happy going on to their state universities – certainly that’s the case for Michigan, and many other states as well. As such, it is just not all that surprising that you’re going to have a lot of smart kids at Michigan. You might want to take some money and go travel some time; it’s really eye-opening to come to grips with the fact that while the Ivies and similar elite schools are terrific places, it is not as though they are the only places with smart students and everyone else is just mouth-breathers who have barely advanced above 2+2=4.
Nevertheless, medical schools are filled to the brim with students from state schools.
Honestly, SAY, I cannot believe you are a parent. The assumptions you make are what naive high schoolers make – the Ivies are the bestest of the best and all other schools are filled with blithering idiots, the entire point of college is to make money and that’s why the Ivies are the best, being a high school teacher is an embarrassing disgrace, etc.
Folks, I came up with a test for intelligence better than IQ and SAT by following the news: The more people you can fool and the longer you can fool them the smarter you are. The people I watch seem all came out of Ivies/Elites whether I like them or not.
But the thing is, when you’re working with someone or even involved in the sport of messageboard debate, it becomes clear pretty quickly who has the intellectual chops, the analytical skills, and the ability to formulate a reasonable case for their position using logic and data. I admire those abilities even when I disagree with someone’s arguments. And, as @Pizzagirl observed, it’s not hard to identify when someone is out of their depth or posing as someone they aren’t.
Pizza that is beneath you. So you never have made a typing mistake on an iPhone. Once again you sound like a presidential candidate who is distorting what I said. Where did I say that non-Ivy schools are filled with blithering idiots? Those are your words. I said things like JH,NU,Vanderbilt, and Wash U are great schools filled with very bright students. Statements like yours get made when the facts are against someone. Nrd as I have said to others please research your answers before making them. 125 is the 95th percentile and the top 5% is precisely who get the competitive advanced degrees in the US. That amounts to over 15 million people above 125.
Pizza what is your opinion of why affluent parents pay 275k to send their children to the top 25 colleges? Please notice in every post I have selected out only the parents who are paying or mostly paying. These parents ended up successful enough not to qualify for FA and are far more educated than the average person. I am well aware that at the top colleges their are many first generation students as well as students with hooks that have academically abilities below the average of the typical student. I mean Stanford won the Rose Bowl last year. Few if any of the players would have been admitted to any selective school based in grades and scores. So yes these students need majors in college and jobs afterwards but this groups of students is vastly different from the students who were admitted based on academics.
Back in post 601 I made a stupid low IQ error in my editing when I wrote ‘But it is a ‘fact’ that an airline pilot is a better job than a bus driver.’ I meant to say ‘it is NOT a fact…’ Therefore my post made no sense, (and no wonder no one liked it, or maybe my name and avatar don’t match, or everyone perceives I am a moron, i.e, with an IQ between 50 and 69, in the good old-fashioned classification of mental deficiency).
And @SAY, I agreed with you a few points in that post. Then in 603 you chide me for struggling to decide whether being an airline pilot is a more rewarding career than a bus driver. How can any of us, including you, declare with metaphysical certainty that one job is absolutely superior to another? By income? By IQ levels?
Anyhow, I am unfit for an elite profession as I graduated from a public university.
Me, too, Petula. Me, too. 
Ellie, surely you are aware that HPYS reject the vast majority of valedictorians and students with perfect scores. I suggest you read the price of admission to see your many errors. I will make just a few statements but the topic is well covered elsewhere. Mich as 28k undergraduates and Harvard under 7k. They both field like 30 sports teams and other hooks. Please go on CC and look at the typical students both rejected and admitted from the very top schools. The idea that a student has a realistic chance of admission to the top schools with those grades and scores shows you have much to learn about elite admissions. By the way the typical non-hooked admitted student at HYPS has an V-M SAT very close to 1600. That is the average. Almost every regular student at HPYS,MIT, and every student at Cat Tech, and even Harvey M have 800 on their math scores. I mean every single student and most have 800 in their SAT II as well. An 800 in math only means you are proficient in real math not a math genius. It is reasonable to make the case that NU,JH,Vanderbilt etc have students similar to the students at HYPS but to include Michigan or UCB is unrealistic.
I think its spelled pooblic school, isn’t it? That is at least how many pronounce it. Or maybe as a grad of one of those schools, I just screwed it up. 
@EllieMom And my oldest D is at a large public university. A great fit for her. My HS senior has her list ready for the common app, all private LACs with ‘elitism’ ranges from Reed to Lewis and Clark to Lake Forest. Even if we are full-pay, she can major in whatever she chooses. I won’t be embarrassed if she becomes a teacher, though bus driver is not the right fit for her.
And thanks for your comparison of Harvard and Michigan. Love to see actual research!
Petula people have to make decisions in life. Is the Big Sur more beautiful than Oklahoma? Is a Grizzly Bear more interesting to watch at Yellowstone than a field mouse? Is SF a nicer city than Detroit? How have you been able to make any decisions in your life if you would find it hard to give your smart child advice as to whether he/she should pursue jet aviation or transit driving?
“Pizza what is your opinion of why affluent parents pay 275k to send their children to the top 25 colleges? Please notice in every post I have selected out only the parents who are paying or mostly paying. These parents ended up successful enough not to qualify for FA and are far more educated than the average person.”
SAY, I already know why I paid that kind of money to send my kids to elite schools. Because my H and I had a similar experience, we valued that experience, and we think a good college education is worth a lot, since no one can take that from you. We believe those are found more often in elite schools, but we’re not the kinds of idiots who think that there is some magic line in the sand at the top 10 or top 20 or so below which it’s all useless – there are smart people and lots of opportunities everywhere if you’re the kind of person who looks for them.
You’re just going to have to trust me that it had very little to do with “and make sure that you maximize your income by going for the very highest-paying job for which you might qualify.” Obviously all else being equal, better to make more than less, but rarely is all else equal.
My S had an interview this morning related to his application for a Fulbright. He’s looking for the teaching Fulbright and as we talked about some of his potential answers to questions, it just continues to jump out at me that no matter what my S does, he always seems to gravitate to teaching, mentoring and counseling others - whether that was in his EC’s in high school, teaching in Hebrew school, being a camp counselor, etc. It’s just part of who he is. So with that in mind, if he decided to pursue being a high school teacher, I think that would be a great thing, he’d be awesome at it, and there’s no planet on which I would consider that a “sub-optimal” outcome. Of course, there are lots of other things he could do as well. It’s most important that these things are things he is interested in long term and feed his passion / interests. Maybe in your world that choice would be an embarrassment at a cocktail party. Not in my world. His cousin, a year older than he, went to Princeton and now works for a hedge fund, making a lot more money. And so? I wish everyone success in what they want to do. It’s not a competition.
You made an interesting comment upthread about affluent parents “not wanting to see their kids struggle with mortgage payments.” Well - why would my son ever struggle with a mortgage payment even if he “only” becomes a hs teacher? He’d buy a house that was livable within his means, of course. The concept of “struggle” would only apply if he were trying to keep up with the Joneses - but why would he ever do that? Odd.
Harvard has 42 varsity sports teams. The most of any college. Look it up!
@SAY, are you getting your stats from CC chance me threads?
“Is the Big Sur more beautiful than Oklahoma? Is a Grizzly Bear more interesting to watch at Yellowstone than a field mouse? Is SF a nicer city than Detroit? How have you been able to make any decisions in your life if you would find it hard to give your smart child advice as to whether he/she should pursue jet aviation or transit driving.”
Which is a better vacation – traipsing around museums in Europe, or lying on the beach in Hawaii?
Which is a better way to spend a free evening – settling in on the coach and reading a book you’ve been meaning to get to, or going to a bar and dancing the night away?
Which is a better flavor of ice cream – mint chocolate chip or pistachio?
Which is a better career – being a neurosurgeon or being a judge?
Which is a better way to live – in a high rise apartment in a city just steps away from nightlife and culture and restaurants, or in a small town with great natural beauty?
It’s almost as though you don’t understand that different people have different preferences in life, and sometimes preferences cannot be ranked because they are simply personal.
I had long said that if my kids were to hypothetically have gotten into every single one of the top 20 universities and top 20 LAC’s, that (assuming all finances were the same) I’d say - pick whatever you want, personal preference, no bad choice. Because at the 20,000 feet level, they are all the same – just different “flavors.” You strike me as the kind of person who would look at the rankings and say that the highest ranking is the one to choose, much like the high schoolers on CC.