<p>I am saying that kids who believe they want to go into finance should think about it.</p>
<p>As for self-aggrandizement, I don’t see that here, but you always see it everywhere like a paranoid.</p>
<p>Anyone out there who wants to go into finance should simply understand that the hours don’t get better when you get further along. It is a life, not a job. And it is not “easy money.” If you have other passions, you will have a better life putting that level of energy into that. JMO. I don’t think this is the career be all and end all that people think.</p>
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<p>the exaggeration of what I say gets old, and really tedious. what do you even KNOW about finance? As for what i said, I said “grease that makes the wheels go round.”</p>
<p>Try to operate the cart without it. Go for it.</p>
<p>As for those who invent and make things, I have all the admiration in the world for them, though few of them seem to be doing that and keeping jobs in the US these days, which might explain why they are less exciting than they once were to these kids.</p>
<p>blossom - it’s not glorifying. Glorifying isn’t, “Oh, Goldman Sachs is recruiting, and the work sounds interesting and it pays well, I’ll investigate further.” If it were my kid, I’d say go for it and good luck. The glorifying comes in the assumption that finance is the only way to make a decent amount of money (if that’s the goal). It’s not. That’s all. I only have one kid who I think is interested in the business world, but I would encourage her to go look at corporate America just as strongly as she’d look at banks and then make her decision. Not write off industry jobs under the mistaken assumption that they can’t ever pay very well.</p>
<p>^^Finance (and consulting btw) are “not the only way to make a decent amount of money”, but they sure are the bulk of who recruits on an elite campus, offering an attractive starting salary to very bright kids who are not specifically trained for any other particular field. Good or bad, that’s the reality.</p>
<p>The function of the banks is very important and for decades they did it with the best interests of the companies they served at heart. Now the real goal of the banks is to generate more and more income and fees no matter what. Client interests are not the clear priority.</p>
<p>All I know is my husband, with 30 years of experience in industry (engineering degree + years of technical sales and marketing experience) does not earn what my S does his first year out of school. DH is always looking to improve his lot and finds that the jobs in other companies for which he is qualified, pay the same or less than what he currently earns, so I don’t think the problem lies with his company. Those in management above his level earn a bit more, but the trade-off is those middle management positions have less job stability. He has seen his colleagues get laid off every few years as companies have undergone mergers and acquisitions. It seems to level out the income differential.</p>
<p>In sum, short of moving to a CEO level position which is unlikely, H will never earn more than S does. While I certainly don’t know the personal financial information of all my friends, judging from those in industry (oil companies, pharmaceuticals) about whom I have an inkling, their incomes are also not that high. My sister is a senior director for a large drug company and she has had to put in 30 years and long hours to earn a bit more than her nephew.</p>
<p>^ No, that is how companies stay profitable and compete with China. Who are the “all others” losing out? A few middle managers mostly, who often don’t do enough to earn their keep and high salary or else they’d be kept. And if others are laid off, it’s not because companies are evil and mean. They’re trying to stay in business. Because at least there’s a profit motive for companies to be efficient and reduce costs. Let’s not for one minute forget that the allegedly more noble places to work are notoriously inefficient and wasteful…schools, for example. Teachers can perform badly, fail to grade papers, show youtube videos to their classes all day and not get fired.</p>
<p>^That’s debatable. That was the idea of what merger can do. In practice, it did not necessarily fan out that way. At any rate in what industry is the US competing against China and winning thanks to mergers/aquisitions? I thought the competition was mostly in labor intensive industries and the US is not winning, I don’t think.</p>
<p>As someone who has been in the business for 30+ years, working from front to back, and a kid who just started out a year ago, I will say that there is a small percentage of people who could take the pressure of S&T or M&A. I have seen people (men) break down and cry because of the pressure, not just once.</p>
<p>D1 is the only analyst on her desk, an associate and a VP quit after she showed up. A month ago she worked on a real life pricing of a deal, and her firm was the lead. As an analyst, her job was to take orders as they came in from their own salespeople and from other co-managers. She had to keep track of spreads/customers. The MD was vacationing in HI, her job was also to patch him in whenever necessary and to make sure no one knew he wasn’t on the desk. She said the board was lit up most of the day,she had to pick up a call and put them on hold. She had to remain cool, remember who she was talking to and enter each of their orders perfectly.</p>
<p>D1 is left alone on the desk by herself from time to time now. She would quote spreads and levels sometimes, and write commentary for senior people on the desk. </p>
<p>D1 works from 7 to midnight almost everyday, and most weekends. She loves her job, what she doing, level of responsibility is given to her. She said it was a real high after that first deal. BUT she is questioning whether this could be a long term career for her because of the hours. She feels like she is missing out on a lot what her friends are doing. She is going to do it for few more years, see how much she will get paid and if the hours get better. It is lucky that D1 is in very good health because if she was out there would be no one to her work. She has not taken a day off yet since she started on this desk.</p>
<p>D1’s desk was raising money for an emerging/start up coporation, so they could expand, and it was cheaper than to take out a loan from a bank.</p>
<p>My D’s company sells specialty chemicals and they most definitely compete with the Chinese. </p>
<p>Well, according to this, a first year financial analyst would still earn more than a first year petroleum engineer when you count bonuses:</p>
<p>Petroleum Engineers</p>
<p>“Labor statistics rank petroleum engineers as, on average, the highest paid of any of the engineering fields. Petroleum engineers examine how best to extract raw fuels such as oil and gas from the ground or under the water. With energy a primary concern for many nations, corporations and individuals, highly educated petroleum engineers are in demand. As of 2009, fewer than 22,000 were employed in the U.S., with a starting salary averaging $83,000, so this field is the elite of the engineering specialty. Job projections, though, show an increase of 18 percent through 2018, making petroleum engineering an attractive career choice.”</p>
<p>Sure. But here’s another way of looking at it. Is your goal: 1) to make objectively more money than other people or 2) to make an amount of money that will more than satisfy all your needs and the vast majority of your wants?</p>
<p>In other words, are you perfectly happy making (let’s just say for the sake of argument) $300,000/year mid career, or is it critical that you make $2,000,000/year? If you and your spouse are equally ambitious, you’ll pull down $600,000 - which is more than enough to live nicely anywhere in the country, send your kids to college full pay, have trips to Europe, be a 1 percenter if not a 0.5 percenter. Does it really sting that badly that you’re not at the private-Gulfstream, art-collector level?</p>
<p>Well, duh. A first year WS analyst earns more than any other first-year 22-year old joining an employer, period. And perhaps that is one reason why WS is so attractive.</p>
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<p>And you don’t consider this a good paying job? It is already nearly 2x the median US income. (And don’t forget, that petroleum engineers can work in fly over country, where one can live extremely well on less than six figures.)</p>
<p>Anyone can collect art. Even at the armory show. Just go and find what you love. </p>
<p>Most, even in finance are not travelling on gulf streams. </p>
<p>This is the problem. These kids think: oooooh finance. But, it’s not like that. You are just as likely to burn out on it before you ever get to the mid-career level pay, maybe more likely, frankly, than even top firm attorneys.</p>
<p>And, then, even then, not everyone can make partner. The people who get to that level really LOVE the work, not the pay. I think this is what people miss. These people who do this well are in love with this work, the same as great surgeons.</p>
<p>So… find something YOU love to do the same way these people love this, and you will, most likely, be very successful. JMO</p>
<p>Pizza, when you find an oil company ready to hire a history major from Yale to be a petroleum engineer, call me. In the meantime, you are really over-thinking this. Other than a few lunatics on CC, the students aren’t calculating the NPV of their future earning stream at Morgan Stanley. They are looking down the barrel of their student loans- perhaps seeing a younger sibling about to start college with mom and dad a little panicked that they will NEVER be able to trade in the 13 year old car… and after very little effort (resume drop, show up at a dog and pony, show up at a campus interview) could land a job which will pay more than mom and dad are earning.</p>
<p>It’s that simple. Nobody is wondering about Gulfstreams or buying art. Nobody is even wondering about three years from now. I’ve interviewed these kids when I worked in I-Banking- believe me, they are entering the analyst programs (which last two years by the way, so nobody is getting paid a million bucks by the end of year two) with their eyes more or less wide open. Kid- I’m gonna work hard and long and at the end of two years will either decide to go to B- school, or decide to open a yogurt shop back in Des Moines, or become an organic kale farmer. But I will be more than halfway through paying back my loans (and in some cases more than that if the kid is thrifty and has a few roommates) and so that’s a good trade off.</p>
<p>That’s it. Criticize the kids for leading an unexamined life if you will, and for not fully exploring the socio and psycho dynamics of the financial industry. But it’s unfair to criticize the history major for not landing a job as a Petroleum engineer right out of college. Especially when there’s free sushi in the lounge of the career office paid for by XYZ investment bank.</p>
<p>Why of course, PG. I was merely giving a data point toward answering the question if the same amount of money can be made in other fields, given that the Ivy grads are so unsophisticated as to prefer banking over all other supposedly well-paying jobs they can obtain. And remember, most of these kids are majoring in economics or finance and other non-STEM degrees. Seems even one of the best paying STEM jobs is offering less.</p>
<p>Sorry, cross-posted with blossom who made the same point.</p>
<p>When H graduated, he wanted to be in consulting more than anything, but he was offered a huge signing bonus by the finance firm. He wanted the signing bonus and figured, “I’ll go get my MBA after a couple of years and go into consulting after that, anyway.” He took the bonus, went to work, and found out he was one of the ones cut out for finance.</p>
<p>Along the way, mostly everyone else bowed out into consulting, actually. Not him.</p>
<p>One went insane.</p>
<p>But, really, he just ended up there because he wanted to buy a co-op right away. It was never his “dream” career. Ever.</p>
<p>And, the kids who come to work for the people who work for him? Every once in a while he notices that one who is there when he walks in and is still there at night when he leaves. He makes a note of it. Those are the ones who can do it. But it isn’t for everyone and he will write a good rec for anyone who wants to go back to school, or who wants to move on to another field after a couple of years. He doesn’t think it’s the right life for most people.</p>
<p>“their student loans- perhaps seeing a younger sibling about to start college with mom and dad a little panicked that they will NEVER be able to trade in the 13 year old car…”</p>
<p>Mine is 17, my wife’s is 15 and we’re not trading, even if you give us the money, thank you.</p>
<p>Younger d. is starting at a salary just a little bit below mine as I go into retirement. My wife lucked into a new career that turns out to be lucrative (certainly nothing we planned on), with her two-year community college degree. With overtime, even in her 3rd year, made more than an entering Wall Street analyst (and not nearly as many hours, or pressure). And I can’t imagine she will ever be laid off. Of course, she was in the most popular STEM major (nursing).</p>
<p>I seriously doubt that that many Wall Street recruits have much debt, unless they signed up with Stern (since NYU does not meet full need).</p>
<p>But the broader point is likely incorrect. There are too many 18-year-olds, who apply to Wharton, Ross, Stern, Haas, et al, longing for a job on WS. They have zero debt, and come from sheltered, lives.</p>