Embarrassment of Riches: Dartmouth vs. Brown

<p>I find it hard to believe one wouldn’t have a strong preference for one or the other. I’m a city girl, so I’d pick Brown any day. I also like the open curriculum at Brown and I’m a pretty diehard liberal. I’d also be interested in the option to take Studio Art courses at RISD. I gather that Dartmouth has a pretty good pipeline to investment banking if that is an interest. Anyway, I think she should visit both again if she hasn’t already.</p>

<p>Post again if she actually get a Brown admit, you didn’t mention a likely letter, so it is far from sure thing.</p>

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<p>I don’t know. I didn’t have a real strong preference for one over the other, despite the fact they’re completely different. I was pretty apolitical at the time, so it only bothered me if politics/activism got in the way of free exchange of ideas. I was from the suburbs, so both living in a small city and being isolated would have been a different experience.</p>

<p>Thanks for your input.</p>

<p>I didn’t know anything about likely letters, admit dates, or whatever. I was just getting input for a friend. For those of you who felt put out by my question and felt the need to verbalize it, I have to say those kinds of responses epitomize all of the negative stereotypes about CC. As a long-time poster, they embarrass me and I feel rather sorry that I told my friend to read this thread. I find it so incredibly sad that those of you who posted those kinds of responses felt so compelled to post them rather than just skipping the thread. For those of you who gave helpful, well thought out responses, I thank you and my friend thanks you.</p>

<p>And by the way, apparently she does have a likely letter. But really - if anyone wants to ask about people’s personal experiences with two schools, they really shouldn’t have to explain why or somehow prove to anyone that their question is worthy. </p>

<p>^^ I like!! Humane responses, no matter how different the opinion, are the way to go!</p>

<p>My daughter was admitted to Dartmouth and Princeton last year. She had visited Dartmouth for 3 days in the fall of senior year and really enjoyed it. She ultimately choose Princeton to attend but would have been very happy at Dartmouth also. Brown wasn’t on her lists. </p>

<p>Another key decision criterion: Is she more of a pancake shop or red sauce Italian person?</p>

<p>Either way, I recommend breakfast at Lou’s during the Hanover visit. </p>

<p>^^^ Yes yes yes! Absolutely go to Lou’s!</p>

<p>I went to Brown back in the 1970’s so my perspective is dated (and from a cranky elderly woman) but I’ve stayed involved and have been back numerous times- not just reunions but speakers, etc.</p>

<p>Brown is a great fit for a kid with a quirky somewhat off-kilter set of interests or personalities. I visited Dartmouth and had zero interest- visited with my kids who similarly had zero interest (although none of them ended up at Brown). I think the campus cultures are substantially different, although the academics are probably pretty close in most departments.</p>

<p>There are plenty of preppy, old money types at Brown even though the stereotype is that those are the kids at Dartmouth. There are plenty of bo-ho and crunchy granola types at Dartmouth, even though the stereotype is that all those kids are at Brown. HOWEVER- the culture and the prevailing ethos at Brown is highly supportive of the political activist/non conformist/ rage against the establishment type of kid, and the culture and prevailing ethos at Dartmouth is more conservative and mainstream. I would tell a kid who wasn’t necessarily a social fit at Dartmouth to “suck it up” if the choice was say University of New Haven vs. Dartmouth. The academics would be so superior that in my mind, some social discomfort would be worth it. And it ain’t like UNH is a hotbed of liberal activism anyway. And I would tell a kid who wasn’t a perfect social fit at Brown to suck it up similarly- and truth be told, I knew lots of conservatives and republicans even back in the '70’s.</p>

<p>But the campuses are very different and if money is not an issue, I can’t imagine a kid not showing up at accepted students day and not knowing within an hour where they belonged. I knew within ten minutes, and although the four years weren’t always a day at the beach, I trace most of my adult development and intellectual interests and social consciousness to my life in Providence. </p>

<p>If the third Ivy was Columbia- Brown is more like Columbia than Dartmouth is… if that helps. If the third Ivy was Penn- Dartmouth is closer to Penn than Brown is. Even the pre-professional kids at Brown are not Pre-professional if you know what I mean. The most successful Investment Banker (and now a private equity/deal guy) from my class majored in Semiotics. The most successful entrepreneur/media executive from my class majored in Comparative literature. And the most successful physician as far as I can tell majored in Religious Studies. A hugely successful retail exec majored in Art HIstory (where a lot of the really talented kids clustered.) Someone who is CEO of a major insurance company was a political science major (one of the most gifted people in my class. Even going to a study session with him was illuminating- he picked things up that everyone else missed.)</p>

<p>That is very typically Brown. The kids who ended up in corporate careers were NOT econ majors and Brown had neither undergrad business nor an MBA program.</p>

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Since that’s most certainly directed at me, I have to say that I see nothing at all wrong with soliciting advice and input about two or more schools, and I’d always be happy to jump in and help if I could.</p>

<p>But to talk about an “embarrassment of riches” in describing a candidate who has not yet been accepted . . . well, I agree with @Pizzagirl - an experienced CC’er should know better than to count his (or her) chickens before their hatched. It certainly comes across as quite unpleasantly arrogant when a student does it . . . and, I’m sorry, but it’s not much better coming from an adult.</p>

<p>D2 went to Dartmouth and loved it. She got great education, made a lot of friends, and did a lot of outdoorsy stuff for fun while she was there. She did not belong to a sorority.</p>

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<p>IMO, Dartmouth’s conservatism is more apparent than it is real. It has some prominent and very conservative public figures among its alumni, and it has a very small but very vocal conservative off-campus newspaper that used to get in the news a lot with various political publicity stunts. But in D2’s experience and in my observation, the vast majority of Dartmouth’s students and faculty would fit right in, both politically and socially, on the campus of any of the other Ivy League campuses that have uber-liberal reputations. </p>

<p>Well one thing’s for sure - this lovely woman with a lot to share will not be interested in joining this community anytime in the near future! What’s interesting is that I’ve never experienced this kind of vitriol in all the time I’ve been on CC - but have never discussed Ivies before. It does appear that discussion surrounding Ivies seems to bring out a certain type of nastiness that must be fueled by a level of competitiveness or perhaps jealousy that doesn’t surface when one is talking about “regular” schools. I highly doubt that any of the negative posters here would have made the same comments if the discussion was about Syracuse vs. Boston College!</p>

<p>May I suggest a group hug? :smiley: </p>

<p>Seriously, I think a lot of people are really on edge right now, and that’s what you’re experiencing, OP. I hope your friend will come to understand that a lot of families are dealing with some very disappointed kiddos at present, and most of this touchiness isn’t the norm among parents here. </p>

<p>The title of your thread was no doubt not intended to gloat on your friend’s behalf, but it may have sounded like bragging to those who are angsting about being shut out of all their top choices in the next few days. </p>

<p>I think we’re all “walking on eggshells” to a certain degree, so let’s all try to give each other the benefit of the doubt for a few more days (and weeks!).</p>

<p>And congratulations to your friend!</p>

<p>Consider that you/she actually received a lot of valuable information. I think 1 day made a world of difference in the reaction to this thread, particularly since some pertinent information was not provided in the OP.</p>

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<p>I think the current term is a ‘humble brag’.</p>

<p>I have a very strong bias here–Brown, hands down. However, it really is a matter of individual taste.</p>

<p>In a lot of ways, they are very much alike. About the same size. More emphasis on undergraduate education than most “research universities.” Both are what I call “semiversities.” Neither has a law school, for example. Until fairly recently, the med schools had a joint program with each other. You spent 2 years at each school. <a href=“Brown-Dartmouth medical program to end in 2010 - The Brown Daily Herald”>Brown-Dartmouth medical program to end in 2010 - The Brown Daily Herald; / They share some academic strengths. </p>

<p>They definitely have a different “vibe” though. Way back in the Iron Age when I was in college, the semi-joking/semi-serious description of Dartmouth was “the college for the future MBA.” While I agree with blossom that you can find that type at Brown too, there’s still some truth in that descripion. Of course, part of the reason for it is Tuck, which is an excellent business school. (Brown’s business school is a joint program with another institution, relatively new and not “housed” on campus.) Politically, the campus is more conservative. Students dress more conservatively. Greek life is huge. <a href=“Dartmouth in the Glare of Scrutiny on Drinking - The New York Times”>Dartmouth in the Glare of Scrutiny on Drinking - The New York Times; Yeah, I know a lot of people don’t participate, but it has a lot of influence on the social life, particularly if you aren’t into winter sports. </p>

<p>Historically Dartmouth has lead the Ivies in sexual assaults–or at least it did the last time I checked. <a href=“http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/crime-report-card-for-ivy-league-schools-issued-by-insite-security-103042454.html”>http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/crime-report-card-for-ivy-league-schools-issued-by-insite-security-103042454.html&lt;/a&gt; I mention this because I think some parents of females think a conservative, rural campus is a safer place. To its credit, Dartmouth is trying to come to terms with this problem. <a href=“http://thedartmouth.com/2014/03/14/news/college-releases-proposal-for-new-sexual-assault-policy”>http://thedartmouth.com/2014/03/14/news/college-releases-proposal-for-new-sexual-assault-policy&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>Now, of course, there’s sexual assault at Brown too. I’m certainly not denying that. I’m just saying that if you think a rural, conservative campus is going to be safer, think again. </p>

<p>Brown has Greek life too. However, Greeks just are a whole lot weaker at Brown than they are at Dartmouth. </p>

<p>Providence is a much nicer city than it was a generation ago. It is also the state capitol of Rhode Island, which means there are political internships, etc. that won’t be available at Dartmouth. There are a number of other colleges in the area–RISD, Providence College, Roger Williams, Johnson & Wales, Salve Regina, etc., so bands etc. come to the city. And, of course, it’s pretty accessible to Boston and NYC. During the few months in which the weather is warm enough, there’s also the beach in Newport. </p>

<p>And then there’s the arts. Historically, Brown has been much stronger in these areas than Dartmouth. And there’s good stuff off campus too–RISD, Trinity Square Rep. </p>

<p>Again, I agree with blossom that a visit would help. </p>

<p>I assumed that the student had a likely from D. Admissions at the Ivy level are very quirky. I know a kid who was accepted to H and P but wait-listed at D, for example. Brown is reportedly among the quirkiest. But let’s assume she gets in.</p>

<p>The political differences have been grossly exaggerated. I think coureur has it right. Yes, Brown is in a comparatively urban location, but Providence is not a cultural center like New York or Boston. (Or even Philadelphia. Just sticking to Ivy cities. :slight_smile: ) Yes, Dartmouth is in a small town, but it is not in the middle of cornfields hundreds of miles from “civilization” :slight_smile: . Both schools are undergraduate focused. </p>

<p>I really think this is a case where visiting is going to be key, rather than listening to other people’s stories and stereotypes.</p>

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<p>Concerning Dartmouth, it seems that they have been trying for some 20 years now to recruit more people who are serious academics, regardless of political stripe (and many top high school students are indifferent about politics). This was actually communicated to me during my prospective visit; most of the ivies and especially the “top” ivies like Harvard say practically the opposite. They had wanted to get away from the Animal House stereotype as much as possible. A few years ago, the faculty voted to end the fraternity system but were overruled due to the influence of the alumni. </p>

<p>Other ivies have great academic reputations, and want to emphasize their other aspects almost to the point of being anti-intellectual. There seems to be two subcultures, the Greek community and this group of serious academic people. Yes, I recognize this is not necessarily mutually exclusive, but it is mostly so and sometimes is a matter of attitude; you can be a pre-med in a fraternity with good grades, but not really fit in with the serious intellectual crowd. </p>

<p>Because of the efforts to make the campus more academic, I think there may be a large group of students that are very academically oriented or intellectual compared to many other ivies, which also have smart people but who select more for a certain je ne sais quoi communicated by the essay or some non-academic hook. So if you would feel comfortable at U. of Chicago, you may find enough people at Dartmouth who are likeminded.</p>

<p>In the interest of lightening things up, I’ll relate what Mindy Kaling, a Dartmouth grad, said during a satellite radio interview today. She was describing how she developed her comedy chops while at the school, and said that since Dartmouth is in the middle of nowhere and there’s absolutely nothing to do, 98% of the students content themselves with getting drunk at frat parties as their main leisure time activity, but the remaining 2% were a good audience for the creative efforts of Mindy and her friends. (She didn’t ski.)</p>

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<p>Most people I knew who applied to one of those two Ivies wouldn’t apply to the other due to campus culture reputations, differences in curriculum/structure, and even academic calendars*. </p>

<p>The prevailing stereotype during the early to mid '90s is Dartmouth was for those who preferred a preppy party school like environment dominated by fraternities/sororities, jocks, and those with a conservative political orientation** whereas Brown was perceived as more of a genteel version of the crunchy hippieish artsy school for free spirits and the most left-leaning orientation among the Ivies. </p>

<p>Back then, I don’t think it was much of a coincidence that many Brown applicants statistically tended to also apply to schools like Vassar and Oberlin whereas Dartmouth students tended to cross register with schools with similar campus cultures like Princeton and UVA. </p>

<p>In short, if undecided…a visit to both campuses is highly recommended. </p>

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<li>Quarters for Dartmouth, semesters for Brown.<br></li>
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<p>** Yes, the preppy and Animal House stereotypes still held during the early-mid '90s. Also, a high number of the hardcore political conservatives/libertarian-right classmates gravitated towards Dartmouth and schools like it. </p>

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<p>Same here. Speaking about its “ultra-lefty rep”: while it has the reputation of being the most politically lefty of the Ivies, Antioch College, Oberlin, and a few others far exceeded it when I was an undergrad. </p>

<p>Incidentally, I knew a few undergrad classmates who turned down Brown because it wasn’t radical enough or the activism was “too genteel” for their liking. </p>

<p>^ I agree with coureur’s assessment of Dartmouth’s culture, based on my S’s experience as a conservative at Dartmouth. The student body president back then was a gay activist, so the atmosphere is accepting of all. Some of the conservatism seems less political and more tied to wanting to preserve the traditional Dartmouth social culture, eg. the fraternities.</p>

<p>I wanted to write the following in a PM, but for some reason the print is all jumpy and delayed and I lost patience: My main issue with Brown for our middle class family is that it seemed best suited to wealthy kids who didn’t ever need to earn money, or much money, for a living. I have never met a recent Brown graduate who went to work immediately in anything but Teach for America or a non-profit, and if the latter usually not making a competitive salary. Every one of the Brown students we know were interested in doing stuff like taking a year off from school to work on an organic farm in Central America. That is great if you want to do that and can afford to do it (parents can subsidize and you will have no college loans), but my kids needed a more pre-professional atmosphere. Brown gave off a strong hippy vibe to me. Obviously there are oodles of exceptions which people will start posting, but that was our feeling about it. </p>