Emory and Brown?

<p>Hi everyone,</p>

<p>Up until about a week ago, I was set on coming to Emory. Then Brown sneaked into the picture. So, I'm here to get a better feel about what unique things Emory has to offer (since I can't visit either campus because of lack of $$$).</p>

<p>First off, how strong is volunteering at Emory? Could I start my own community project and get support (whether monetary or student) from the university? How solid is Emory's connections with other non-profits?</p>

<p>Also, can some Emory students or alum talk about Atlanta? or about any research opportunities they were involved in? One thing that is turning me away from Providence is the fact that it is in the Northeast and I want to experience a new place with new types of people etc. So diversity is a big deal to me. I'd also like to be close to a big city with a great music scene. Brown also seems rather weak in research compared to the growth of research at Emory over the last couple years. </p>

<p>I know a lot of folks would probably choose Brown because it is Ivy, but that's not really a big deal to me. What's a big deal is how much I can make of my last couple years there (so soft factors like environment, resources etc are important).</p>

<p>Volunteering here is great. Our president really likes to support community projects and you’ll be able to pitch ideas to him for sure. He’ll probably write you a check to start you off, too, assuming you don’t present your project like an idiot. He’s done so in the past. Plus, Atlanta is a better place to do a community project than Providence for obvious reasons. It’ll take a lot of work (especially if the project isn’t related to medicine or business), but I feel you’ll be able to get student support too.</p>

<p>Lots of diversity and music here. I won’t give examples specifically. Just assume we have everything. Lots of research available for undergraduates especially in the sciences (but I don’t know if that’s should be the deciding factor for an undergraduate education because I bet Brown has it too. Or maybe I just feel that way because I’m a math major and hardcore research as an undergrad is pretty rare).</p>

<p>If I could go back in time, I would go to Brown. I love everything about Emory, but I think a math degree from Brown would’ve helped me more than one from here (especially if I want some kind of computer data job). Honestly, everything about Emory is awesome. Atlanta Music/ (Atlanta sports)/school spirit (clubs. not sports)/etc. I’m extremely happy, and I love this place. The only thing is that I sometimes feel the classes are so easy (I’m good at math, but I still think they’re too easy) that I am not getting enough out of them. </p>

<p>That being said, I don’t know what you want to major in. If it’s math or cs or econ, I would go to Brown (especially since you mention that your family doesn’t have excess money). You might not be as happy, but the opportunities will be there after graduation. If it’s bio or chem, then I’d be here. Opportinities + happiness.</p>

<p>aluminum: I think I see where you are coming from. I feel like you should speak up about the math dept. here before you leave. Be honest with the president or math dept. chair and tell them the problems you see with the math and CS dept. and how strengthening them can strengthen Emory and attract a more academically diverse array of students (math here is a weak link that, if fixed, can greatly strengthen the draw toward the physical sciences in addition to creating a spirit of innovation among undergrads. in the sciences. It just opens so many doorways. So far, building the msci building in 2005 almost appears to have been a waste, though it puts on a facade of excellence). </p>

<p>Either way, I feel like things won’t change until students demand more (the rumor mill will not motivate them to change. Being up front will. Dean Foreman was a math prof. at Rice, talk to him. I think he understands. This is why he backs the QTM dept. and initiative. But I think we need to improve the actual math dept. before this school gets anywhere) . Right now, our math, physics, and CS dept. probably shape courses so that they are “pre-med friendly” and this doesn’t help. They clearly think that students taking the courses don’t care but so much, so the dept’s faculty reciprocates the apathy.</p>

<p>I’ve been holding out hope that I’ve just been in classes that are watered down so premeds can get A’s. And once I’m in classes with math majors, I’ll be doing stuff that is actually a challenge.</p>

<p>If things don’t get better, yes, I will speak up before I leave. I’m going to see how the 300+ level courses go before I do, though. And how much I know when employers and stuff ask me questions.</p>

<p>I’m just concerned because the 200-levels are not really where they should be. I saw one of my freshman friends go through Lin. alg. and Multivariable with no sweat at all and it’s not because he is a math genius. It’s because the exams are ridiculously easy (some would yield like 90 something averages). He plans on doing 3/2 at Georgia Tech (BME) and I fear he’ll get his feelings hurt badly in classes that make him apply hardcore math (because Tech does a superior job at exposing them to the rigor needed to do well in them). Hopefully he takes upper-levels to perhaps hone the skills that are almost absent.</p>

<p>yea, I had multi with Helenius (it said staff on the signup. if I had known it was him and wouldve been aware of his reputation, i wouldve left). It was a joke grade-wise.</p>

<p>Had linear with DZB. Easy class as well. Average on the first test was a 95 or something (I got a 100) average on the second was like a 89 (I got a 96 or so). Final was pretty straightforward as well. I studied about 20 minutes, almost pulled an allnighter with my friends watching movies, walked in 20 minutes late (still wrapped in the blanket I was using to movie-nite with my friends) and knew everything (after I woke up about an hour into it). then I left an hour or so early.</p>

<p>Both of these guys are great and ridiculously smart, but the stuff they taught me could’ve been in so much more detail (which is really funny because they’re so smart). Don’t know if that;s the department’s fault or theirs. I think department? I have to put in so much more effort by myself to make sure I can do the stuff I feel like they should be teaching me.</p>

<p>Gradewise, these classes have been a joke. But I’ve learned stuff I didn’t know before (I just think we could delve more into it). And I’ve been putting a lot of effort to make sure I understand the material really well and beyond the expectations of class. In an effort to prepare myself for grad school.</p>

<p>Got Diff Eq and math 250 next semester. Looking forward to 250 since it’s the basis of everything… think 212 will be the same as the other stuff I’ve taken. Then it’s 318/351/321/411-412/421-422. And the professor’s expectations in those classes will decide whether or not my time at Emory was worthwhile. I really need to get in Ono and Borthwick’s classes.</p>

<p>Like bernie12 and aluminum_boat have said the 100 and 200 level math classes at Emory are mostly a joke, and usually watered down so that people who aren’t going into math/cs don’t get completely screwed over. However the same can’t be said for 300 and 400 level math classes.</p>

<p>I’m premed so like 99% of all the premeds here I should’ve just taken Math 107 to fulfill math stats requirement, but since most people said the class was a joke and I had already taken multivariable I instead went ahead and took math 361, a upper level multivariable-based stats class. That class turned out to be much more difficult that I expected, and I was probably the only non-math major in there. Since middle school all the way up to taking multivariable my freshmen year at Emory i’ve always been able to get As in math classes and understand the material without trying too hard, but for the first time I struggled for quite a bit in that class, especially during the 1st part of the semester (and so did many of the math majors in there). Fortunately and to everyone’s surprise the prof. curved generously at the end so I did up with an A, but he never mentioned anything about it during the semester.</p>

<p>Point is, if you want to be challenged in a math class here you’ll have to go the 300 levels, where there’s a huge jump in difficulty from the 200 level.</p>

<p>KevAquarius, I replied to your query.</p>

<p>Thanks ellenp. I also received your email and emailed your daughter. </p>

<p>collegestu, I appreciate your post but that isn’t really what I was concerned about. Though it does shed light on if I take a stats class (which I will) which one I’ll take. </p>

<p>aluminum, thanks for the post. I’m a premed but pre MD/PhD so I’m not super concerned about getting into med school and competing with my classmates. I really want to absorb the knowledge so that I can apply it to my research. Which I suppose brings me to my next question (which bernie could probably help me answer): how competitive are the premeds at Emory? I prefer a collaborative environment and I haven’t really heard about Emory’s environment. Brown always gets that “laid back” label, but then again I’ve never been.</p>

<p>Emory is “laid back” and collaborative as well, but will feel more stressful simply because of the amount of pre-professionals (for whom standards are so high for GPA requirements, that true learning means much less than an A, so they stress out about the life-threatening B+ or A- potentially coming their way, a disappointing consequence of prof. school admissions). Brown has less of these, so it is naturally less stressful. Emory is a typical top 20 (as in pre-prof. oriented) that is probably more laid back than its peers. You have some oddly competitive students (as in will boss people around or will avoid and/or reluctanctly work with or assist others at all), but they are rare and almost shunned. </p>

<p>Being on a different pathway or coming in with a different mentality will help you avoid the stress (some of it being unwarranted) that others have. You’ll just do the best you can and learn the most you can.</p>

<p>Science for the sake of research is pretty much Bernie’s life. Emory’s great for that. It’s what we’re best at in my opinion.</p>

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<p>For practical purposes you should be MORE concerned about grades and MCAT scores if you’re trying to get into a MD/PhD program than a normal MD program, even though I agree with you guys that learning something from your classes is much more important than just BSing through them to get high grades. But in the end grades will still matter A LOT. Ideally if you can pick mostly classes you enjoy (both the material and the professor’s teaching style) you should have little problem learning the material and getting a good grade at the same time.</p>

<p>With that being said at the end of the day MD/PhD programs are still much more competitive than regular MD programs because of their perceived prestige and full tuition scholarship + stipend offerings. Most of the premeds here that want to do MD/PhD usually have a 3.9+ GPA and 35+ MCAT. Of course extensive research experience is a must and Emory offers plenty of those, but make sure to start early. And most people say that 4 yrs of med school followed by 3-6 yrs of residency is way too long. The MD/PhD program is 8 years instead of 4, and you still have to complete residency before you can practice so before you commit make sure you are interested in research enough to spend an extra 4 yrs in school, and are set with working in academic medicine (you can in theory go into private practice down the line if you change your mind but then your PhD won’t help at all).</p>

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<p>Compared to students in other majors or pre-professional tracks most would agree they are the most competitive. Pre-meds here generally try the hardest in their classes yet still have the lowest GPAs and highest dropout rate (usually to pre-dental, pre-grad, or pre-business). Most are a bit overfocused on just getting the pre-med requisite classes and ECs done, with the mentality that if a class or EC activity doesn’t help them get into med school they shouldn’t invest much time/effort into it. However, the good part is that the environment is still mostly collaborative and not cutthroat (with a few exceptions of course) when compared to other top 20s. For example, even in classes like orgo where grades are curved to the class average (and thus someone’s good grade can arguably come at the expense of another’s bad grade), people will study and help out each other. The same can’t be said about other schools like Johns Hopkins (not sure about Brown tho), where I’ve heard people who are tutors will try to sabotage another person’s grade when he/she comes for tutoring by purposely telling him/her the wrong information.</p>

<p>I knew a lot of MD Ph.D folks and they were far from perfect and certainly did not all have 3.9s+. Did most of them have 35+, of course, but it was more like 3.75+ and high MCAT. Seems that students considering an MD Ph.D perform better on the MCAT for whatever reason, so I imagine this often compensates for having a stereotypical pre-med GPA that may be considered competitive. They also tend to take heavier courseloads while maintaining this competitive GPA, so I’m sure all (or even most) don’t have nor really need a 3.9 (if you have a stereotypical courseload, maybe so), though such a situation is ideal for everyone. Just saying, let’s not make out like all successful candidates are essentially perfect, because they aren’t. This sentiment unnecessarily discourages people. It’ll cause people to give up once they drop to the 3.7-3.8 range. I find this inappropriate. If they did it right, they will have other experiences and talents that strengthen the application. I think part of standing out in these applicant pools is taking a risk and doing something different from your peers. Now-a-days, a 3.9-4.0 seems a dime a dozen and is hardly impressive (especially from a private school) unless complemented with a very high MCAT. I think this is a general weakness of pre-meds at Emory. They try to follow the same track as their peers at Emory not realizing that they are competing in a national applicant pool. For example, students at Emory are afraid to take physics 151 because “all they need is 141 for med. school/MCAT”, but the reality is, most of our peer institutions (and the students one would have to compete with for admissions to a top school) make their pre-meds take a calc. based course in physics or a trig/algebra based course that is on steroids in comparison (as in, while not using calculus, they would have to derive expressions for new systems on a test). Not only this, but the calc. based classes are a majority of the physics sections offered at these schools. Seems that Emory is too afraid to take a step toward forcing students into that type of rigorous environment (I’d imagine there would be a lot of resistance). However, this upcoming year is interesting with having Dr. Bing teach all the physics sections. That should be intense (I feel like it’s an opportunity for him to teach it at the level he wants, even bringing some calc. in future years if this method persists).</p>

<p>OMG, Berland for 151 was easily my worst experience at Emory.</p>

<p>Bing’s not doing 151 next year. He just runs lab.</p>

<p>Yeah, that’s my confusion. I don’t understand why they don’t just send the better teachers to 151/152 (how can you encourage more physics majors by having an unstable gateway sequence?) Also, I was moreso proposing that 141 be reformed. Rice, for example has “physics for the life sciences” which is geared toward pre-health and natural science majors, but is calc-based (the other calc-based series is geared toward engineering majors). This could be 141 at Emory and it could be run by an excellent teacher such as Bing.</p>

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<p>You’re right, most aren’t perfect. The average person accepted to med school from Emory in the past 4 years averages about a 3.63 GPA and 31.4 MCAT. I’m just pointing out that for MD/PhD acceptees that average will be much higher on both the GPA and MCAT, but definitely not perfect.</p>

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<p>This may be true at some state schools like UGA where anyone who barely tries can have a 3.9+. But I don’t think grades are that inflated at Emory when compared to colleges across the country, especially for intro pre-med classes here where averages hover around a B- or even C+. Again looking at premed data in the past 4 years from the PHMO website, 119 out 1350 who have applied to med school had 36+ MCATs, while 114/1350 had 3.9+ GPAs so the numbers are about the same. Nonetheless having a high GPA + low MCAT definitely casts doubt on your course rigor, which med school adcoms can often see right through on your transcript. Lower tier state med schools probably won’t care much if your GPA is high, but the more selective ones will.</p>

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<p>There’s definitely going to be resistance from the pre-med students, but even more so from places the PHMO and Career Center, who essentially tell premeds to take lighter courseloads (they advise most freshmen to not double in sciences) to not get overwhelmed and keep their GPAs high. Any since a good majority of those in the 100 level physics classes are premed and very few premeds are physics majors, the Physics department tries to cater to the premeds, but not in a way that is necessarily helpful to them in the long run. At the same time, they may also turn away many potential physics majors with genuine interest in the subject (which is really bad for them since the Physics department is already much smaller than the Chem, Bio , or NBB departments and doesn’t get as much attention on campus).</p>

<p>And since at the moment about only 51% of Emory premeds who apply to med school get in each year, the PHMO is currently worried more about getting the students on the lower end into a medical school than getting the top premeds into better ones. In fact, they generally tell everyone to apply to just lower tier med schools so they can hopefully more people to get in somewhere. While this advice may apply to some students (many Emory premeds with mediocre stats think that just because they go to a top 20 undergrad they’ll automatically get into a top 20 med school), it doesn’t apply to others. </p>

<p>My point for incoming freshmen premeds is, take the advice from the PHMO with a huge grain of salt (you’ll probably hear them speak at at least one session during the first few weeks of school) and don’t be afraid to challenge yourself beyond the minimum requirements.</p>

<p>Tougher flagship state schools often curve some of their classes to C/C+. Emory’s graduating GPA is like a 3.38-3.4 (this puts us .1 above most top flagships with similar talent-pools) with almost 1/2 of the students earning over 3.5. I’d imagine there are an abnormal amount of 3.9s or 3.85s and higher here or at many of these top privates than there are at top flagship universities or even normal state schools. While the state schools generally have a “less talented” student body, they clearly challenge that student body enough to make sure a 4.0 is not that common (I think there were plenty of 4.0s in my graduating class and a bunch of 3.9s. A couple were indeed extraordinary students in the sciences, but sometimes on just knew that it meant a little less in cases where the student often took easy curving/grading courses). Private schools do it to an extent, but also want to make sure we graduate and are happy. Only some schools go far enough to even challenge the notion that high GPAs for everyone should= happiness. These are, as far as I know, Princeton, Reed, Harvey Mudd, MIT, and Johns Hopkins. Emory is in the WashU, Northwestern, Chicago, Vandy suite of grade inflation (kind of the middle as many schools have exceeded 3.4 and in the case of Stanford, Yale, and Brown, 3.5). A lot of it comes from the grading practices in the social sciences and humanities, but also from some weird stuff in certain upper level science courses (let’s just say, that we don’t get better grades in them because they are more challenging and we are just more prepared, but because some are just plain easier, or grade easier. I am okay with the latter moreso than the former. This is how a place like Harvard or Yale is still significantly more rigorous while also inflating the grades. They can actually argue that the curve was well-deserved. We can’t always argue that, yet people here automatically expected when the average isn’t a solid B)</p>

<p>As for the grading curve/distribution in pre-med courses. I would say that only chemistry courses are left with a B- average (actually this is the first year in a while, that gen. chem is probably a B- instead of B/B+). And that is expected (some organic chemistry classes even curve slightly lower than B-, like Gallivan’s and some of the other researchers, but Gallivan’s curve is generous considering his averages on those difficult exams he gives for 222). Grades in general biology have gone way up (in the interest of “fairness”, many professors will water down their own testing style from previous years so that students won’t complain that they are too hard compared to others. If the biol profs. give one hard test at like 75-80, then they must give an easier one to make up for it at 80-85. I think most have been pressured to become easier, like Spell, and some, like Passalaucqua are becoming pressured to become slightly harder. Some were just kicked out of there altogether, like Eisen, who is probably considered too tough, even after curving. I feel like biol 141 has lost a gem), they are probably a B/B+ at this point (When I took it, there was more a mixture of B-s, Bs, and B+, etc. among the sections, except in 141, where it was a B- for about every section). Only huge classes like Biochem, NBB 301, and Cell Biol drag the biol dept. grade distribution down. Also, I get the feeling that physics is a B when there are other non-Bing professors. It will go back down to B- once Bing teaches all of the sections. </p>

<p>But yeah, pre-meds students at Emory should ask themselves, do they want to compete amongst each other, or with a national applicant pool? And the best way to do the latter is to push yourself to see what you can do. Assess your own strengths and limitations, take a risk every now-and-then, don’t let others (including phmo) tell you that you cannot or should not do it if you have been shown to be a strong student. They really need to personalize their advice and stop treating everyone as if they are the same.</p>

<p>Kev, you and I both are deciding between brown and Emory (although I’m just a wait lister at Brown) Emory has much better research. Especially with the CDC literally across the street. Lots of great volunteering at Emory and Atlanta is a wonderful city. I haven’t visted Brown either so I can’t really speak much on that end.</p>

<p>KevAquarius,</p>

<ul>
<li>Volunteering and research are very strong at Emory.</li>
<li>Atlanta is a very fun place, with lots of music.</li>
</ul>

<p>One thing to consider is that Emory and Brown each “feel” somewhat differently. I don’t know if you can get a good sense of that without visiting, but it would be worth devoting some time to it.</p>

<p>Best of luck to you.</p>

<p>From what I heard, they feel a lot different. I hear (and research tells me) Brown has somehow managed to maintain a lot of its liberal arts type “feel”. Emory still has it to a degree, but the undergraduate student body makes it feel otherwise. It seems that the only thing making the school feel somewhat liberal artsy is the look and design of the campus (we don’t have those huge, towering, gothic or colonial style buildings in our core like many of research university peers. Our architecture is somewhat gradiose with the marble and all, but relatively modest at the same time as the greenery sometimes obscures the architecture and Emory buildings are not as grandiose without being supplemented by trees. It looks more “quaint” kind of like some of the LACs. The medical and research complexes on the periphery of this core are a different story. These make it clear that we are research intensive). I would imagine a lot of the campus initiatives as spearheaded by certain faculty and administrative figures have also help Emory maintain somewhat of a liberal arts social culture (and due to this our extracurricular activities tend to be much more grounded in the liberal arts or interdisciplinary approaches to real problems). Due to the level of pre-professionalism, the academic culture is nowhere near as “liberal artsy” (define this as you may. I know how I define it. For example, I do not necessarily consider a person majoring in a science and a non-science as a liberal arts oriented person as sometimes such a decision is moreso strategic than representative of a curiosity to learn something cool.) as the social/ EC scene.</p>

<p>Don’t take what I said as truth. Continue to research both and follow chazsf advice and visit.</p>