@VANDEMORY1342 My reason for cutting it off at “top 14” is because I have read from many sources on this site (and some others) that many large corporations and firms prefer to only hire graduates of the top 14 law schools ranked by US News. Do you find this to be true, or do you believe otherwise? Like a top 25 spot should be fine like you mentioned?
Here are some stats for Emory Law School employment (not the same as being an Emory undergrad, of course). Emory Law is ranked somewhere around #20.
I think top 14 is a bit severe a cutoff and a function of the fact that the legal market has been in a recessionary mode ever since the financial meltdown of 2008.
Law schools like Georgetown and Emory are definitely regarded as national law schools by other graduates of national law schools.
As you move down the list of law school rankings, schools may have less national pull as you go down the rankings but schools like Georgetown and Emory will always have a lot of pull in their region (east coast for Georgetown and south for Emory). Still, everyone’s heard of Georgetown Law and Emory Law and those schools are highly regarded by Ivy League law grads who want to be law professors, as well as other national employers.
Are Georgetown Law and Emory Law the equal of Stanford Law in Silicon Valley or Harvard Law on Wall Street? Probably not, but hiring attorneys in those parts of the world would regard Georgetown Law and Emory Law as national law schools with selective student bodies.
Hi OP. A friend of a family member forwarded me this, as she is in a similar situation. I figured I could provide some advice to you as well. I’m an Emory grad, went to a top 10 law school, and am currently a corporate lawyer at a very large law firm in Manhattan.
While I don’t know enough about ROTC to give any advice in that regard, I agree that reducing your debt burden should be a major concern. Definitely contact the financial aid office to see if they’ll up your award, and absolutely apply for third-party merit scholarships… there are so many scholarships out there with weird requirements that no one ever applies to (I googled and found this article, which seems helpful, but which I don’t endorse! http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/how-to-get-scholarships/). It is possible to decrease your out of pocket cost significantly with a little effort! That said, like most college students, your interests and career goals will probably change before you graduate. For example, I went to Emory thinking I was going to go to nursing school. Needless to say, things changed!
Accordingly, I recommend going to the best undergraduate school that you can–whether Emory or otherwise. You just have so many more opportunities coming from a school like Emory vs. a school like FSU. Emory really does have a national reputation, and employers will look at an Emory undergraduate degree differently than an FSU degree, honors college or not. Example: In a life before law school, I hired many college graduates for their first job. Undergraduate institution was very important to the company. We almost wouldn’t consider someone who didn’t go to a top private school or flagship state university (UTexas, UVA, UNC, Berkeley/UCLA, etc.). I’m happy to expand on this if it would be helpful, but I’m trying to keep this relatively short. One caveat: if you are looking to work in Florida for the foreseeable future, maybe I could be convinced that FSU is the better choice, as it has a large alumni base in Florida and the southeast. There’s something to be said about that! But if you’re at all interested in leaving the southeast, it’s a different story.
Lastly, regarding law schools: absent a full or nearly full scholarship, the only law schools that are worth attending are the “top 14.” Employers of recent law graduates just don’t hire out of other law schools like they do from those 14 schools. And this phenomenon isn’t isolated to Wall Street firms. Corporations (to the extent they hire new grads), nonprofits, the federal government, etc. all focus on those 14 schools. For more information and a comparison of law schools, see https://www.lstreports.com/national/. Again, I’m happy to discuss this more if you have specific questions, but I can’t emphasize enough how important the name on your law school degree is, even if you want to work in public service or for nonprofits. And if you think you at all want to go to corporate law (where you can make real money to help pay off those loans), top-14 is a must.
PS here’s another good blog that discusses the economics of law schools and problems with their costs and graduate job prospects: http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/
(Edited: clarity)
@bbms09 Is there any reason on emphasizing on an unusual number “14” instead of usual numerics (i.e. 10,15,20,25…)in regard to acceptable top law schools?
And can you provide the schools list?
It’s a great question. As far as I know, it’s the schools that have always been at the top of the US News rankings. I know, it’s crazy, but that’s the way it is. The reality though is that the schools in that somewhat arbitrary group tend to have a much broader national reach and put their graduates into the better jobs at a rate exceeding everyone else. Generally US News rankings roughly correlate with schools’ employment statistics. Now that doesn’t mean that one can’t be successful going to law school at UCLA or UT or Vanderbilt or WashU, etc. Instead, my point is that the farther down the rankings you go, the starker the employment statistics tend to be. From Law School Transparency:
Berkely (12): 85.3% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs.
Cornell (13): 89.6% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs.
UTexas (T14): 75.7% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs.
Without going into the details (a lot of this info is available online), the problem isn’t with students at the top, or even top half of the class… at any of the top 20 schools, those students will probably be able to find a job. The issue is for those in the bottom half, or worse, bottom quarter of the class. It can be very difficult for those students to find jobs that pay enough to service law school debt (or are subject to a loan forgiveness programs which help to pay the debt).
Further, success in undergrad is no guarantee of success in law school. Of course, half of every class is going to be in the bottom half grades-wise, and because all law schools grade on a curve, it doesn’t always matter how much you know or how well you write an exam. What matters is your exam compared to everyone else’s. Lots of really smart people do poorly their first year of law school, and that can be seriously detrimental to their ability to get that first job. Thus, when you’re at a top 14 law school, where employers tend to be less grade sensitive, you can still leave with a job even if you don’t have straight A/A-.
Here’s the top 14, probably not in order, but you can look it up if you want: Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, NYU, Penn, UVA, Duke, Michigan, Berkeley, Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown. Technically Georgetown is 15 this year and UTexas is 14. That’s a first, but I’m not sure how it will affect anything. Of course what really matters is employment statistics, not ranking.
@bbms09 Coming from an Emory grad who does exactly what I hope to be doing when I get out, that answer really has a lot of weight. I wasn’t sure how much this “top 14” thing was really worth believing, and it seems much more clear now how rank plays out when it comes to jobs after graduation. Thank you and thanks to whoever forwarded this thread to you.
You’re very welcome. But please please please do everything you can to keep your debt burden low. Look for scholarships, become an RA to defray housing costs, keep bothering the financial aid office to get that extra grand in scholarship, work during the summer and during the school year, etc. etc. It may take some work but it’s definitely possible. When I was there, I volunteered for psychology and economics experiments to make a little extra spending money. The little things add up. Most people leave law school with a huge debt burden (6 figures easily), so if you can avoid coming in with any (at least minimal) debt, it will make life so much easier. Good luck
I think it really depends on how much the money difference is between Emory and FSU & if you’re able to comfortably pay it off in the future. You’ll have a better shot at top law schools with a degree from Emory.
As most people said to do, take the better financial option.
Emory is not known for its social sciences (except business really). 24 vs 40 is not a big difference. You don’t want to sell yourself to the government via either loans or service, unless you absolutely want to serve (which you don’t).
You will have a better college experience knowing you will be in much less debt when you graduate (especially if you decide not to go to law school).
Did you get into any other schools? There is a big gap between FSU (~90th) and Emory (~20th).
@AimingTop50 The only other school that I was accepted to in-between FSU and Emory in rank was the University of Maryland, but I received no scholarships or financial aid.
What other programs are significantly stronger than Emory’s social science programs? I’m guessing its natural science and pre-med majors but is there a great difference between certain majors? (fyi I’m planning on becoming a poli sci major at Emory next fall).
@AimingTop50: Really?! Where are you getting this stuff from? lol. So it isn’t known for African American Studies, Women and Gender Studies, political science, history (I’m sorry, but a school on an a la carte general education requirement scheme cannot implement a Voluntary Core without strength in the departments that host most of the courses, which are primarily political science, history and English), psychology, English/Creative Writing (come on you had to know about this), religion (direct connection to Tibet and a top Theology School), anthropology, even Interdisciplinary Studies (The ILA hosts these programs and they are recognized as one of the oldest and most well-run IDS types of programs, perhaps because it has a bit more intellectual seriousness than many), and even many of the language programs (some which are straight up not really offered at any other peer institution)? That’s funny, that isn’t what I observed or heard, nor what the enrollment numbers or graduate rankings say. Nor what CNN or various national news networks say (they often feature key folks from those departments. You think all those people coming for Emory with an extremely strong background in debate only major in STEM? I mean seriously, think about the composition of the students and their EC backgrounds. With things like that, and a strong continuation of debate and Model UN, it suggests that other departments likely continue to foster an interest in those areas). Also, rarely is any top research school super known for things outside of STEM because naturally those programs, if strong get the most “shine” from marketing. You can go on departmental websites and clearly tell that the programs I just cited are extremely strong, have well-known faculty in their field, and have lots of money, even to spend on undergraduates. It is about quality of the programs, which may not be connected to how well known it is at the undergraduate level for it (these often get more shine and high ranks for research output and graduate programs, and unlike sciences, humanities and social sciences often trickle down quality a lot to the undergraduate program). Even environmental science which is nicely hidden is a super strong program (that just makes sense, Emory is surrounded by/some located in an urban forest and is next to the CDC). Sorry bud, but some tourguides are noobs and may be in their own little academic bubble so mainly talk about what they do or know.
@locally808 : That person is confusing me. I think because their tourguide kept mentioning pre-med, which is not a department OR a major, they get the impression it isn’t known for anything else which is strange (I kid you not on this anecdote, but last year/fall I was riding an Uber Pool with a dad from India who was dropping off his son, again an international student, who came to Emory just for the Creative Writing Program which he had somehow heard of while in India and while taking a summer course in English at Columbia. I am not making this up). Just because some departments get more shine in marketing does not mean they are stronger. The fact is…STEM sells in the U.S. given the amount of people going toward it to chose the so called “big bucks”. However, Emory still has abnormal amount of pre-law students and excellent law school placement. You think those folks major in STEM or go to the b-school? Just no…the person and many people even interested in Emory just simply let the marketing get to them to the point where they overlook the other programs.