As you can probably tell from looking at my profile, I am very new to this site. Anyway, I now face a pretty tough decision. I was accepted to both Emory and FSU for the class of 2021, and I’m not sure which one would be better in the long run, money-wise. I am on the pre-law track, so I’ll be applying to law school following my bachelors, if that helps. I am aware that Emory is MUCH higher ranked than FSU, but I heard somewhere that law schools really only care about your LSAT score and GPA. I would also have to either A) get a loan or B) do ROTC at Emory because there is no way I can pay for it (I got a scholarship from FSU). Basically, in terms of getting into law school/jobs after, is Emory worth it, or will I be better off just attending FSU?
@rlee9812 Are you planning to compete for admission to a top 10 law school? If so, the brand of the undergrad institution matters.
Do you want to do ROTC at Emory? What’s the level of commitment you need for that?
I disagree with this ^^. LSAT and GPA will drive law school admissions. Go to FSU.
Here are some prelaw acceptance statistics published by Emory’s prelaw advisory office:
2016
http://staging.web.emory.edu/career/documents/about/outcomes/pre_law_2016.pdf
2015
http://staging.web.emory.edu/career/documents/about/outcomes/pre_law_2015.pdf
2014
http://staging.web.emory.edu/career/documents/about/outcomes/pre_law_2014.pdf
2013
http://staging.web.emory.edu/career/documents/about/outcomes/pre_law_2013.pdf
Florida State’s undergrad prelaw advisory website doesn’t publish law school admissions statistics for Florida State undergrads. However, the website does identify undergraduate institution as one factor considered by law schools:
http://prelaw.fsu.edu/Law-School-Admissions-and-Selection-Criteria/
Core selection criteria commonly considered by law school officials include:
Grades
Law School Admissions Test (LSAT) scores
Writing skills
Personal statement or essay
Additional criteria often used include:
Undergraduate institution
Major
Improvement in grades and grade distribution
College curricular and extracurricular activities
Letters of recommendation
Work experience
Community activities
Motivation to study law
State of residency
Past accomplishments and leadership
I agree with @suzy100. Go to FSU.
@BiffBrown A “US news Top 14” Law school would be nice, but top 50 in general would be the bar. Also, I’m so-so on doing ROTC, it’s more of a “I’ll do what I need to do” in order to compete for grad school, if attending Emory is necessary. I believe the program I’m looking into would require me to serve in the National Guard for the same amount of time as college, so 4 years for bachelor’s=4 years in service after graduation.
Also, major thanks to everyone for the advice so far, especially the research!
Ask FSU prelaw advisory office for their in-house admissions statistics for FSU undergrads.
Military service is a plus factor for law school/business admissions:
https://www.quora.com/Does-military-service-help-with-top-law-school-admissions
Would the Emory ROTC program allow you to do 2 years of ROTC followed by 2 years of National Guard? Or does it require a full years of ROTC followed by a full 4 years of National Guard?
*Or does it require a full 4 years of ROTC followed by a full 4 years of National Guard?
@BiffBrown Sorry, I’ve been a little too vague. The program I am doing is called the minuteman scholarship, where I would do ROTC for my 4 years. For every year of college that the army pays for, I would drill for 2 years. (This is one weekend a month.) I was wrong about the 4 years earlier, i’d be drilling for one weekend a month for 8 years after law school. So it’s the 2nd option, except it’s 8 years instead of 4.
http://www.usar.army.mil/Featured/Resources/Educational-Benefits/Minuteman-Scholarship/
Only you can decide whether the commitment to military service is worth the trade for tuition at Emory. If military service is something that you would otherwise be interested in, then getting tuition thrown in is an extraordinarily good deal. Many people join the military for many reasons - whether they are “good” reasons is personal to them. I have no judgment about that, nor should I, as it is solely your choice to make. Eight years is a long time, and we are living in rather uncertain times; only you know whether that is something that makes sense for you. You are the one who is going to have to serve that time.
Setting aside the ROTC option for a moment: if you are deciding as between taking out loans for the entire tuition amount at Emory versus taking a scholarship at FSU, please, please, please do your future self a favor and do not saddle him/her with that kind of debt. Just don’t. Go to FSU, kick the crud of your classes, do well on the lsat (which you would have to do anyway to get into law school) and you be will fine in terms of admissions to law school. This is a no-brainer especially for a top 50 law school and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. They will not be the ones paying thousands in student loans every single month, drastically altering your life choice quite literally until the day you die. Remember that you will likely have to take out loans for law school. That could add another 200,000 to your total amount. How are you going to pay back that on top of another 200,000 in debt for undergrad? You’ll be closing in on half a million dollars of debt. Let that sink in for a second. How would go about even getting that much in loans?
It’s so frustrating watching young people like yourself even consider starting life with such an anchor dragging you down - and to see other people encourage it (not necessarily in this thread) because of some myth that a higher ranking name on your undergraduate diploma is going to drastically alter the trajectory of your life. It won’t. Full stop. Period. End of story. Do well where you go, seek out professors who will mentor you and later write a glowing recommendation letter, join campus activities that are meaningful to you. Be happy and thrive. The next step to law school will come from those things.
Follow the money, one way or another. If that means ROTC for you and you are fully aware and accepting of the service requirements, great, and if it’s the same requirement for Emory and FSU, go to Emory, no doubt. But do not take out loans. Please.
-Signed, someone who could be your mom and really doesn’t know you at all but truly hopes you won’t sink yourself with unrelenting debt before you even begin your swim.
If you haven’t done so already, appeal to Emory for a larger financial aid award. Tell them that Emory is your first choice but that you have a big scholarship from FSU. Ask them what issues/concerns caused you to get a lower award from Emory than you expected, give them documents and reasons why Emory mis-analyzed your situation.
You should appeal at least once, ideally more than once, because you will likely get a better award - perhaps enough so that you can attend Emory with only a 3 year ROTC scholarship instead of 4.
Regarding the ROTC, you’ve probably heard of the JAG Corp (lawyers who serve as military prosecutors) or perhaps other ways of discharging your military obligations apart from serving in the field.
https://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?threads/road-from-army-rotc-to-jag-officer.29691/
The military typically wants to place people where they’re of the highest and best use. Those with language skills and/or who score high on IQ tests get assigned to intelligence units. Those with law degrees join the JAG Corp. Those with engineering or computer backgrounds get assigned accordingly.
Are you able to discharge your responsibilities by serving as a military lawyer? In what capacity? For how long? It’s worth asking.
Are you interested in litigation or being a prosecutor? JAG lawyers get great on the job training in this regard.
Those with military backgrounds often are preferred when hiring for government positions including, for example, Department of Justice legal positions. There are also federal agencies (SEC, FTC, FDA, etc) where you can get trained to be an attorney in a non-litigation capacity if that is your interest. A military background might help open doors for a future in politics.
Law schools give a preference to those with a military backround in admissions.
The legal field is still one where the prestige or brand of your law school carries a lot of weight. Law schools - especially selective ones – also consider where you attended college. At my selective law school, 10-15% of the students in my class attended Harvard, Princeton or Yale undergrad. In this regard, I suspect Emory has an edge on FSU judging from the acceptance statistics that someone posted on this thread.
Would you be attending FSU’s Honor College? What are FSU’s prelaw acceptance statistics? The quality of education you receive matters in preparing you for the all important LSAT. Taking classes where you’re required to read a diverse and challenging array of materials (literary theory, philosophy, science, economics, history, etc.) will help build your vocabulary and reading comprehension skills over the next four years.
Where you attend law school will impact your summer internships and the first couple of jobs you get out of law school. If you want to practice in a “prestige” field (Wall Street law firms, large corporate firms in large or medium sized cities, Silicon Valley law firms, Department of Justice litigation positions, Securities & Exchange (SEC) jobs, federal prosecutor positions, in house positions at big corporations/hedge funds/private equity, law school professorships), then your law school brand will matter a lot.
You can make up for a lower ranked law school brand in part by doing extremely well at your law school - Order of the Coif, Law Review editorship, etc. (basically top 5-10% of your class).
Note that some law schools will waive tuition partially or in full for students who commit to service positions afterwards (not sure whether military jobs qualify).
http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/the-application-process/admissions-faq/#faq-1-5
https://law.stanford.edu/apply/tuition-financial-aid/
See whether ROTC makes sense for you particularly in light of opportunities to discharge service obligations through JAG or other military legal position.
Do not take out six figures worth of debt to go to college if you know you’ll want to attend law school afterward.
Do not attend a middling law school (pick up debt) and then finish in the middle of your class or worse. There’s a downmarket for lawyers right now and you might end up unemployed and unable to pay off that debt.
Appeal your financial aid decision from Emory.
What kind of active duty obligations would you have under the Minuteman Scholarship program?
If you plan on going to law school, save money and go to the cheapest option.
@FourScoreFour From what I have read from my research, I am very interested in corporate law, but I am aware of the fact that to do this well you should try to attend a top 14 law school.
If I didn’t want to do corporate, I would consider doing prosecution. (I job shadowed with the DA of the county in which I live in and had a very good experience)
I have been accepted into FSU Honors Program. Also, I have been unable to find FSU’s pre-law acceptance statistics, and apparently a poster earlier in the thread wasn’t able to either. If anyone has this data, that would be great, but I do know that the political science program at FSU is ranked #40 by US News, if that’s worth anything (Emory’s is ranked #24).
@BiffBrown Through this scholarship, I would do ROTC while in college but be in the National Guard when I’m done. I’m not 100% sure how this would work for me in the JAG corp, but I know that most National Guard officers get deployed every 2 to 3 years for a couple of months. (My dad is a physician in the National Guard and this is how his deployments work.)
To answer your question, the minuteman scholarship obligations would be the same as the National Guard.
Save the money for grad school and go to FSU. I don’t see a material difference in #24 vs 40 and your Honors experience will serve you well there - GPA plus solid LSAT and you will have good options for law school.
Here’s a recent article about the bad market for law school grads:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2017/04/20/a_law_school_is_finally_closing.html
The link I posted earlier describes the procedure for applying for JAG Corp. Apparently, you apply for (1) deferrment of active duty while you attend law school and (2) enrollment in JAG after you’ve been admitted to law school. It’s apparently very competitive to be accepted.
FSU Honors should have data on its FSU Honors law school placement success even if FSU doesn’t track the success of all FSU grads with law school placement.
The trial experience you get as a JAG is most useful if you choose a career in civil or criminal law litigation. It would be less useful if you do corporate law work.
Working in house at various federal agencies might give you a leg up when it comes to corporate law. The SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) issues and enforces regulations on issuance of securities and investment advisors (e.g. mutual funds), for example. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) enforces the nation’s antitrust laws and is often in play when large companies merge with or acquire other large companies. The Federal Drug Administration (FDA) regulates the marketing of new pharmaceutical drugs.
Federal agencies typically favor those with military backgrounds when hiring and that’s how ROTC and becoming an Army officer might help your legal career.
@FourScoreFour That article was very… disturbing. I wonder how different the market will be by the time I (hopefully) start practicing.
The JAG corp. looks like a very attractive option. I’m actually heading to Atlanta tomorrow to meet with my ROTC recruiter so I will definitely ask about the options you mentioned. Thanks a lot!
@rlee9812 I’m not familiar with ROTC but can’t you do a bit of both (loans + ROTC). I would go to Emory. As you can see the law market is stiff and Emory has great place to into the top 14 law programs especially considering it doesn’t have a top 14 law school. However “top 14” is a little passé as there are many great law schools not inside the top 14 like Georgetown, Notre Dame, and Emory all with a top 25 spot.