Emory vs Duke vs Vanderbilt

Colleges and Universities A-Z Emory University
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<p>“Few people has heard of UChicago?”</p>

<p>And you call me naive XDDDD</p>

<p>Chicago is the birthplace of Chicago economics, also known as an alternative to Keynesian economics, and home of the great economist Milton Friedman. </p>

<p>What is Emory the birthplace of? NEWT GINGRICH??? LOL??? =-DDDDD</p>

<p>JK JK JK, I know Emory’s got some great grads…</p>

<p>Furthermore, UChicago is ranked #4 by USNews. So I hardly doubt few people who have attended college has ever heard of it. Now if they did not attend college, then probably they have not heard of UChicago (and they definitely have not heard of Emory).</p>

<p>Anyway, the OP’s thread was about deciding between Duke, Vandy, and Emory. I ranked

  1. Duke (by a long shot)
  2. Vandy (higher ranked than Emory)
  3. Emory (I would not have included this school because Emory doesn’t have the major that the OP wanted so in a sense, Emory is irrelevant)</p>

<p>However, other people may also use this list which is why I did include Emory. </p>

<p>Now to the Theology school. It is useless. It is a waste of space. It will not help people in this economy. Its degrees will not get anyone a marketable job. So why keep it? </p>

<p>Students pick where they go based on their belief of whether or not which place will help them get a job. In economic terms, this is called return of investment. Students are investing their money in college, which is expensive so they want to see a return of that investment. An economics degree is a better investment than a theological degree, especially in the 21st century. </p>

<p>The Theology school is outdated. Why keep it? I understand its legacy and its importance but guess what, we are CHANGING. We are evolving. We need to invest in math and science, not religion. </p>

<p>And just because something as been a part of something for a long time does not mean we should keep it. Swords, bayonets, and horses have all been part of the military since the beginning of time. BUT they are used VERY VERY rarely. </p>

<p>Times change mate. You got to keep up or be left behind.</p>

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<p>Speaking of changing, evolving… Are we? Science and math may have advanced, but are people themselves actually getting any better? Take away all the laws and see how many people you believed were “good” will go rob a bank, steal, slander, etc. We can calculate our ways to blowing up whole cities and achieving world power status yet we still can’t “change” and “evolve” as human beings without adding more and more laws to the societies we live in.</p>

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<p>You really don’t know anything about Emory. The United Methodist Church consents to all appointments to the Board of Trustees, pursuant to Emory’s charter. The Church can remove any or all board members at any time, and the university is bound by any resolution or action of the United Methodist Church.</p>

<p>The Candler School of Theology is a primary center for the training of new Methodist Ministers. In fact, the name “Emory” comes from a prominent Methodist bishop. The reason the Church has so much authority at the university (not that its relevant to the day-to-day operation of the university in really any way) is because Vanderbilt used to be the Methodist Church’s school, but they lost control of it in a legal battle. In investing in Emory, they wanted to make sure that didn’t happen again.</p>

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<p>You would not believe the number of people who think UChicago and UPenn are random state schools. The people who matter know what Emory is.</p>

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<p>aig, in that case, then Emory is doomed to fail.</p>

<p>Religion should never be mixed with education…just as there is a separation of church and state…</p>

<p>hm… this also explains why the useless theology school is expanding while the more marketable econ department is being cut…</p>

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<p>Harvard, Duke, UChicago, Yale, and Vanderbilt still manage to keep their Divinity Schools up and running (training ministers was why Harvard was founded). Of course, Harvard Divinity’s biggest challenge is keeping people from you from attempting to gain admission for the purpose of making an unlikely lateral career shift from divinity to investment banking, in pursuit of the almighty dollar.</p>

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<p>Harvard, Duke, UChicago, and Vandy may keep their religious schools. BUT they did NOT cut their more marketable econ program while at the same time offer more degrees in religion…</p>

<p>A degree in religion will get you almost NOWHERE…</p>

<p>No wonder Emory is dropping in the ranks… They set their priorities in the wrong places.</p>

<p>There are top schools without a “divinity” or theology school…such as UCLA, UVA, Stanford…</p>

<p>and those schools are either on par or better than Emory.</p>

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<p>I’m curious where you heard that the Candler School is expanding. For one, you have to understand that religious schools often enjoy large, restricted private funds (i.e., donated money that can be used for religious purposes only and not towards economics programs). Secondly, the Candler School is offering a new master’s degree in religion and the public life (or something similar), but this is simply a way for the university to bring in more revenue by getting additional students to pay to take classes that are already being taught for the MDiv/ThM programs anyway (read: near zero marginal cost).</p>

<p>As for the cuts in economics, I think there are few of us who understand what’s going on. My best guess is that the school must really hate the current economics faculty (and are using this as a pretext to get tenured faculty to leave, who they otherwise couldn’t get rid of). I can only assume that they’re either going to then bring in far higher status economics professor and/or move the economics department into the business school.</p>

<p>Also, Emory has been 20th for awhile. We’ve been ranked higher, yes, but many schools have been as well. I don’t see that there’s enough evidence to support the claim that we’re undergoing some dramatic drop in perceived quality/ranking.</p>

<p>Finally, a degree in religion will probably not get you far. But Candler largely serves those who seek professional training to become ministers. Those students do not have a hard time getting the job they want–a job consistent with what they feel is their calling and which pays the bills. It may not be a six-figure job, but there are nonprice determinants of demand and supply in the labor market. It also doesn’t leave anyone in abject poverty.</p>

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<p>i’m also curious to find how Emory and you would believe they will gain more revenue by offering more degrees in religion ( read opportunity cost).</p>

<p>The opportunity offering another degree in religion appears to be the economics department. I am sure most people would agree that trading economics for religion is not a good trade? </p>

<p>If Emory wants to gain more revenue by picking up more students, they can make their economics department better. As I have said many times, a religious degree is NOT marketable and those with a degree in religion have some of the HIGHEST unemployment rates. Although a a degree in economics will not give you a 100k salary, you can use it to get an MBA. A degree in religion, however, will neither get you a MBA or into law school. </p>

<p>Also, increasing revenue does not necessary mean the university or business in general is doing well. You have to look at income and the return in investment. If cost is rising just as much as revenue, then high revenue means nothing…</p>

<p>Emory went from 9th to 20th.</p>

<p>Its law school lost 10 places.</p>

<p>Its business school is way overrated with a top 20 BBA and MBA for a school that people thinks is one of the best in the nation. Emory is also in an international city. Other schools such as Michigan and UVA have a terrible location yet their business school would destroy Emory’s. </p>

<p>Its medical school isn’t that good relative to its location. I mean they have the CDC next door and its research is #22 while its primary care is #29. That is kind of embarrassing…</p>

<p>Although Emory is still a top tier school, you can not ignore the fact that Emory is falling behind. I understand some people may not want to hear it, but it is reality. </p>

<p>Keep up or be left behind.</p>

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<p>aigiqinf: I am primarily talking about the expansion in facilities. But now that you mention they are adding other components to the program, having a new library and teaching chapel should help. At least they may already have plans for the space (chemistry for example claims that it is implementing a new curriculum or way of teaching, but many people in the know understand that it is really to hire more research faculty and to accommodate their labs). </p>

<p>Fwu, you missed the point again. I don’t see the point of you mentioning the other schools that don’t have a divinity school and their quality. I was mainly saying that our Theology School was already really strong and it is not surprising that it has the money to undergo upgrades. And again, you keep connecting it to the religion dept. which is in the COLLEGE. The Theology School is a PROFESSIONAL school. I agree with aig, there is likely some plan for the econ. dept though I am not sure. What is more interesting is that you name schools that indeed have a divinity school and a “remarkable” economics dept (not something we have. The Theology School’s legacy and reputation is much more remarkable than the econ dept which is in Laney and ECAS), but do not have BBA programs. Also, this is the south. Have you heard of the term “megachurch”. Many southern ministries have quite prosperous pastors and administrative figures (especially churches in the Atlanta area). </p>

<p>As aig seems to somewhat imply, the BBA program likely eclipses the econ. dept and weakens it significantly. Because, just like physics depts at many top non-engineering privates primarily get their enrollment from pre-health students who take the introductory sequences, the econ. dept primarily gets students who are taking the intro. sequences as pre-reqs to the b-school. In addition, much of the others who take classes are double majors who usually list whatever else as their primary major (NBB/Econ and Chem/Econ have become popular combos that I’ve seen, with a significant amount of these people of course, being pre-med). With such a trend, I can see why the econ. dept isn’t good. It likely didn’t have much incentive to be. You just had to pretty much make sure that you had some decent faculty teaching some of the intro. sections and some of the popular upperlevels (normally within specific concentrations like health econ. for example) and you were good. Basically I imagine they figure that many in the dept. didn’t necessarily see anyone going into the field (say academia). One can say this for bio or NBB as well, but they also have an incentive to be solid so that they can at least try to prep people for say, the MCAT, or any career in science (it is certainly more likely for an Emory student to pursue a masters or PhD in a biological science than it is for them to pursue a Ph.D in econ. for various reasons). I just wonder how this will play out. </p>

<p>In addition, many wouldn’t argue that the priorities are wrong. The new allocation of the monies taken out of these places is going to depts that normally attract Emory’s traditional base of applicants. For example, the investments in NBB (but non-clinical options) may bring in more students perhaps interested in pursuing the discipline as a career as opposed to it being a mere prof. school stepping stone major. It is, of course, also reallocating monies to try to “enhance” the UG science curriculum. Though, in my opinion, it has many problems, I do think it is on par or better (mainly because many of the teachers, which basically means that we just need to get more teachers who adopt the same methods as these people, or find a way to encourage or train teachers to adopt such pedagogy.) than “near peers”. </p>

<p>So to Emory’s base, this isn’t really misprioritizing at all because those taking econ. classes are going to the b-school or double majoring. Excellent programs like Political Science, English, History, psychology, etc. are going untouched. The only issue comes if the admissions folks and the administration is still claiming that it wants more intellectual/academic diversity. Chances for that will lessen because of the cuts, and I don’t like that, but over time, if done correctly, the talent attracted to the areas that are strengthened/remain in tact may look much different than now. You may for, example, get more students in the NBB dept who actually care about neuroscience and go on to rep. Emory in academia in that area. I would also like to see what happens with interdisciplinary initiatives as we are also much better at that than many other peers. However, the fate of the ILA appears unfortunate. I feel as if it is/was a source of intellectual energy and creativity. I hope they find some way to keep the idea and concept embodied by IDS/ILA alive. It’s extremely important we do that. While I think English, Polisci, philosophy, and history play a similar role, I feel as if IDS/ILA was unique in many ways (like the senior project or thesis is a good thing in my opinion). However, on the other hand, the structure of that human health major or concentration is surprisingly refreshing. It will likely attract a more intellectual pre-health student and lead to some interesting work in healthcare/health oriented initiatives at the UG level (as it also has a senior project/thesis component). Inspiring creativity and a more active approach/higher engagement with and to studies (beyond making the grade) in a portion of the pre-prof. community that is usually seen as driven but also dull and risk averse in many ways is good for Emory. Best of all, the dept. reveals other ways for students to contribute to healthcare and well-being (IE, some people may ultimately find other ways than becoming an MD to influence healthcare, and this will lead to some academic diversity in and of itself).</p>

<p>Lastly Fwu: The Law School is 24 now. It went from 20 to 30 back to 24 (UGA went from 20 to 28 or 30 and is now 28 or something like that). Clearly the USNWR in law school rankings is too volatile to trust (it’s probably just fluctuating with job placement. It is hard to get Big Law jobs if you are not at a T-15 or higher in this economy. So if students at schools below these are gunning for those, they won’t find much look and may end up unemployed if they don’t try for other jobs). Also, I love how you refer to the number 9 thing. I believe I have actually seen a video where the admins at Cornell were charting their progress and they admitted, during the talk that they and many schools had been over-ranked in the past (They also mentioned places like Caltech). Also, volatility back in those days also comes from the revised metrics and USNWR sometimes using incorrect data (apparently Cornell accidentally misreported its data one time, alerted USNWR far before the ranking was to come out, and USNWR just used the old data anyway. They went a bit lower the next round I believe). A lot of schools went down because of it.</p>

<p>Anyway, I give up. I’ve clearly written too much and you still don’t get it. Perhaps aig or someone can explain their opinions or view on these issues to you (I would actually like to hear what they may have to say about many of these issues), or the differences between the religion and theology dept. I still don’t understand why you don’t get this distinction. This is a much more simple concept than the other things we were discussing.</p>

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<p>There is no opportunity cost; no additional resources are being expended to offer a degree that only uses open spots in classes that would be taught anyway. In other words, we’re letting people pay large amounts of money to fit into the spaces left over after MDiv/ThM students register and we’re calling it a degree program. We can’t use those spaces for an econ program. That’s why there’s no marginal cost.</p>

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<p>You’re confusing an undergraduate degree in religion with Candler’s degrees. The MDiv is a professional degree that provides training for those hoping to become ministers; these students are not struggling to find jobs. For MA candidates in religion and the public life, these are largely people who already have a sufficient income/job (often nonprofit/religious leaders), but who are paying to have the Emory name on their resume. You can use a BA in religion to go to law school; practically no one is going from an MDiv program (a three-year professional degree) to law school.</p>

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<p>Emory has fluctuated significant, as many schools have in the long run (particular as US news plays with the formula to effect changes that will sell more newspapers). It’s not like Emory suddenly dropped from 9th to 20th last year.</p>

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<p>Perhaps the law school dropped 10 places. That doesn’t mean the whole university is falling apart. </p>

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<p>I don’t see that the business school has dropped significantly. </p>

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<p>I haven’t heard that the quality of medical education has suddenly fallen. This doesn’t support your claim that Emory is undergoing some dramatic free fall in ranking.</p>

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<p>The ILA is disappearing; IDS is continuing.</p>

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<p>Well, that’s actually awesome (okay, kind of, still don’t like ILA going away). Do you think they’ll do something to essentially replace ILA or maintain the spirit of the ILA (technically ILA is graduate right, or is at least the dept that currently runs IDS)? Have you heard anything about it?</p>

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<p>The ILA is a graduate institution; it is going away (I don’t know if they’ll form a pro forma IDS Department to host the IDS major). The IDS major will continue more or less as it is, but the tenured faculty of the ILA with affiliate with other departments. The other plan is to put other faculty on rotation to teach IDS classes.</p>

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<p>I don’t know why you guys are arguing with him. He isn’t going to change his perception.</p>

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<p>Just because Emory’s business and medical programs are not dropping does not mean they are in trouble- because they are in HUGE TROUBLE. </p>

<p>Their rankings are low RELATIVE to their location. Emory’s medical program is ranked in the 20s with the CDC next door. That is sad considering UVA’s medical program is also ranked in the 20s but is located in almost the middle of nowhere. Similarly, UVA’s business program is also better than Emory’s despite Emory being in Atlanta (an international city with many fortune 500 firms) and UVA being in Charlottesville (basically UVA is Charlottesville and Charlottesville is UVA, that’s how small Charlottesville is). With Emory’s location, its rankings in these fields should be much higher. Take NYU for example. It is located in NYC and its business program is great. This is troubling because Emory is not using its greatest assets to its fullest potential, thus Emory is being inefficient. </p>

<p>Aig, if a business/firm/college/university/organization is inefficient, it will NOT grow. And Emory is NOT growing. Overall, it is declining in the polls. Thus Emory does not have to undergo free fall for us to take notice. When prospective students see that Emory’s rankings are not improving, why in the world would they waste 55k a year on it? Therefore Emory would lose money. </p>

<p>SO rankings and public perception are important Bernie. </p>

<p>Bernie you also talked about reality, well mate, here is reality. Reality is Emory is either dropping in the ranks or remaining stagnate at best. I’m not sure how anyone can ignore that. Normally, people want to see improvement. </p>

<p>Do you two work for Emory or something? I understand every university has its public relations department but you guys are doing your best to redraw Emory’s image.</p>

<p>We are going off topic with religion…</p>

<p>The OP’s original thread is about choosing between Duke, Vandy, and Emory. Since Emory does not appear to be growing, any investment into Emory is a waste. Furthermore it appears Emory is putting their priorities in their Theology school. I guess Emory likes to step into Liberty University or Grove City College’s shoes…</p>

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<p>The assertion that the rankings are low relative to location does not support you claim that the university is free falling. You simply have your history wrong. The university really didn’t come to any prominence until the 1980s. Some rankings go up, some will go down–it happens to most every school. There’s not enough evidence to claim that Emory is going from some shining star to becoming GWU or something. </p>

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<p>I think we’re somewhere among a non sequitur, an appeal to emotion, and a slippery slope argument. </p>

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<p>Progress up from number 20 is difficult and slow (decreasing marginal returns). It’d take us more than 5 years to break into the top 10, even if you doubled our endowment.</p>

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<p>I’m a current student. Do you even go here? If so, you must be in the business school (or maybe you work for The Wheel, given how wrong they seem to get everything)… In fact, the best way I can sum up my perception of this conversation is “It’s too early to think about these things, but it’s not too early to talk about them.”</p>

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<p>And you’re like “ZOMG!” Go to Duke or Vandy because they’re ranked higher in US News" as if this is the high school life thread. The ranking difference between Vandy and Emory is negligible.</p>

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<p>Ok i admit my English is not very good as I am an international student. My perspective comes from an international background that puts high emphasis on education. Thus we see rankings as very important. Everyone I know chooses where they go based on prestige and whether or not they are a good investment. That being said, I understand it may be hard to decipher through my English. </p>

<p>To be on the same page, I will clearly state that I do not believe Emory is going through free fall. I am just saying Emory is falling behind in the rankings in some fields and remaining stagnant at others. Emory has made no major improvements in any major fields. </p>

<p>Progress up the top 20 can not be that hard. Emory has more money than Vandy and WashU. Yet Vandy and WashU is moving up. UChicago went from top 10 to #4. </p>

<p>You can deny the fact that Emory’s quality is dropping if you want. Keep on denying, just like those who favored appeasement in the 1930s and those who are denying man made global warming. But everyone will see the end result. That end result for Emory is the continuing gradual drop in the ranking which will lead to lower quality prospective students. Given Emory’s great location, Emory would most like stay at the top 40s. My prediction on the long run is that Emory would be ranked as 35.</p>

<p>You might be fine with that but just remember Emory was ranked 9 before. All those resources were wasted.</p>

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<p>You have to realize 1. The US News List is only one ranking 2. The methodology (i.e., how they determine rank) is silly and changed every so often to change the rankings and sell more magazines 3. The difference between schools ranked close together (e.g., 17th versus 20th) may be a fraction of a point.</p>

<p>Emory does have its challenges, but I don’t think you’re presenting the situation as much more simplistic than it actually is. One reason that Emory doesn’t have to worry that much about a significant drop in rank is that we don’t have that many students. The College of Arts and Sciences has fewer than 2,000 incoming students a year.</p>

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<p>I am not sure why you are disparaging USNews when: </p>

<p>Emory best rank comes from USNews LOL?!?</p>

<p>All the other rankings put Emory below the top 20. </p>

<p>I guess one reason that Emory is receiving little is that Emory becoming more like Grove City College where religion is dominating the curriculum and campus decision making.</p>

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<p>I have a daughter who attends Emory right now, so I have a vested interest in the school. However, I have to agree with many of the points made by Fwu22911, maybe just not to the same degree. For example, it is a bit puzzling and disappointing that the B School and M School are not rated higher, given their proximity to the Atlanta business and the CDC. </p>

<p>I know the school and the teaching at Emory are excellent, because I see what my daughter is doing (she has a slightly above average GPA in one of the technical majors). She is getting an outstanding education, I feel, taught by real professors in all her classes. I feel good about that. But no one connected with the school can deny that the SAT scandal and the boneheaded comments of the President have hurt. Tough to say how much, but they have hurt. I don’t think the comments and actions of the President rise to the level requiring immediate termination, but his contract ought to be somehow shortened or at the very least not extended. At a university, as with most large organizations, it is the leadership at the top that can make a real difference, for better or worse. The current administration has been neutral at best, and probably worse than that. Are you paying attention Emory trustees?</p>

<p>Frankly, people connected with Emory could benefit from some of the clear eyed strategic thinking of Fwu22911. The school is not on any massive slippery slope, but with so many top schools competing hard and successfully, if you’re not moving forward you’re moving backward. The only question, in my opinion, is how fast. Emory has some tremendous, and certain cases unique, advantages. They need to take better advantage of them in my opinion.</p>