Emory or Duke?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hi. I'm a senior in high school and I just got acceptance letters from Emory and Duke. I want to go into Medicine and I know these are both very good choices but I just can't make a decision. I didn't get any scholarships or anything like that so the prices would come out to be about the same. I haven't visited either of the schools so I'm not familiar with the atmospheres. I've done science research at my school for 2 years and I'm looking to continue in college. if anyone could offer advice on any of these issues I would appreciate it. </p>

<p>1) I have always taken hard classes among the smartest kids in my school but I have never really been at the top of my class. I here the biology courses at Duke are very rigorous and I don't want my GPA to be any worse than it has to be. </p>

<p>2) Although I like both schools, I just think Duke has a slightly better name. it has higher rankings on basically all the lists I've checked. Also many of the forums I've read say that it has a better selection of courses. </p>

<p>3) I like the idea of going to a D1 school. I feel like it would give me a sense of school spirit, and going to basketball games would definitely be something fun to do with a bunch of friends. this sort of goes along with the "bigger name" part. </p>

<p>4) I used to live in the suburbs of Atlanta before I moved to New York but I've never really lived in the city. I think it would be fun, though, having everything close together. It seems like I would have a lot to do. </p>

<p>I have heard great things about Emory, its medical program, and life in Atlanta. I just think Duke's name and campus life would be better. Please leave any fact or opinions that could help. Thanks. </p>

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<p>Both are great options, but I think Duke is the stronger school </p>

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<p>@Hobinero: Better rankings mainly apply to grad. programs. And according to NRC rankings, Emory and Vanderbilt fare much better against Duke than USNews would suggest in many grad. programs (for several biology, social science, humanities, and chemistry, Duke and Emory perform very similarly in NRC. Emory sometimes even outranks them in most things except reputation which lags the raters’ perception of quality) , which don’t matter to you anyway. By the way, chemistry courses (except maybe pchem. Duke is much stronger with quantitative things. Emory’s chemistry instructors seem more difficult by happenstance) are more rigorous at Emory. Biology is overall much more rigorous at Duke (though many of the important courses at Emory that would help you get problem solving exposure for the MCAT are comparable if not slightly better. Duke’s biology department just doesn’t have many “lows” in key courses.I think neuroscience, on the other hand, is maybe equal to their UG program if not better because of its flexibility), so I don’t know if your GPA would be that much different (I think upper division courses at Duke have a more generous grading curve than Emory). If you take rigorous courses at both schools, the outcome will be the same. Also, the amount of research opps. are very similar for UG’s, so that won’t really matter. </p>

<p>However, you seem to prefer Duke (and so do I to some extent, but not because of campus life. I was never the one to care too much about the D-1 stuff, and if pre-med, it could be a distraction. For example, science courses at Vandy are on the whole easier than Emory’s, and yet the performance is equal despite them being for better students on paper, and having the same exact sort of grading curves as Emory has. I think Duke and Emory’s curriculum are much more comparable, but Duke has better students, so I suppose it’s more competitive), so I would go there. It just makes sense. Won’t matter much for pre-med so much as doing well in the program matters, however, your happiness will play a role in your performance, and if you are happier at Duke, you’ll likely do fine despite the competition. Don’t think of “more rigor” as necessarily bad. If you have a balanced schedule, you can take rigorous courses or instructors at either school (and do well) and it will help you get the problem solving skills for the MCAT (which will probably make reviewing much easier than relearning everything and learning how to tackle the passage based problems from scratch) and perhaps make you better in research labs. If you go to Duke, as I think you will, just keep a level head and don’t get distracted by the “campus life” that much. You really can’t afford to. I think the reason why Emory can have tons of very tough chemistry and biology instructors considering our student body quality without everyone doing horribly is because students perhaps put more time to their studies (because, while they are very involved, they aren’t as distracted). But yeah, don’t write Emory or Duke off because of things like rigor and reputation. I’ve been investigating, and while Duke is great, we’re more similar in the sciences for UG’s than you would think based upon rankings and student body, so don’t be afraid of Duke and think Emory will let you off the hook there (you could choose the easier/worst instructors, but then your MCAT will go worse for sure). Also, note that intro. class (except physics) sizes (and often intermediate) at Emory are usually much smaller than theirs or most other top 20s. That means that classes like general biology end up a bit “richer” than a normal school. You don’t just sit in lecture and take notes. Multiple methods are being used to engage students in material (including the case method in biology courses) and many (especially the better ones) instructors use Socratic method/actively engage the audience (and not just entertain them). I find that this is not common in intro. sciences at most schools (even selective ones), so keep things like that in mind. </p>

<p>Things aren’t always as they seem I’m finding out. If this was Harvard, Columbia, Yale, Princeton, Chicago, or Princeton, I would of course advise you to go without thinking twice because their science cirrricula are among the most innovative (in terms of the structure, content, and way they are taught), and have lots of rigor. I feel as if Duke is more traditional compared to those places and just has a lot more rigor than it used to. The level of innovation (mainly in teaching, not structure. And I speak about courses beyond the intro. level) at Emory vs. Duke in the science curriculum actually seems similar than different, and I honestly feel like Emory is working hard to make this non-accidental (right now, it’s kind of just because we have tons of instructors who choose to teach and test differently, not because the depts or the school is actively promoting it). Sweeping changes are coming to the chemistry curriculum very soon (as in would effect you. And BTW, I suspect that our top general chemistry and organic chemistry instructors are actually better than those at most schools, not just Duke because they are much tougher, yet still get high ratings. I feel we got lucky, but it is nonetheless true. Only downside for pre-meds is that they are also much more rigorous than the peer institutions’ courses. So if you took these awesome instructors, find some course to help pad a potential B in their courses. Overall, the knowledge and level of learning makes it worth it) biology is doing things to apply some of the same innovation you see in the intro. sequence at a wider scale in the advanced courses. Neuroscience is adding more courses that are “hands on”. Right now, I am convinced that Duke is an overall stronger school and has awesome students, but I’m not convinced that the natural science undergraduate curriculum is that much better (quantitative, computational, sure!). Here, they are more similar than I thought. I suppose you’ll have much more fun there though, and math, physics, and CS classes will be more enjoyable (I think humanities and social sciences are comparably amazing at both institutions! So that’s good). </p>

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<p>I prefer Duke. But my preference. My oldest son visited both, and though he did not apply to either, he’s always regretted not considering Emory more than he did. He did not like Duke at all. So it varies. </p>

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<p>Bernie, Emory’s graduate programs are not comparable to Duke’s at all. Using the NRC Reputational Ranking, here’s what we get for a few fields…</p>

<p>English
Duke: #13
Emory: #23</p>

<p>Political Science
Duke: #6
Emory: #18</p>

<p>Mathematics
Duke: #14
Emory: #71</p>

<p>Economics
Duke: #10
Emory: #75</p>

<p>History
Duke: #16
Emory: #33</p>

<p>Biology
Duke: #1
Emory: #26</p>

<p>There isn’t a single area of study besides maybe Chemistry where Emory is comparable to Duke at the graduate level.</p>

<p>All that aside, Duke is a far better undergraduate institution as well with smarter students and better job opportunities/graduate placement.</p>

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<p>@cptofthehouse Really?! However, isn’t it really just a personal preference? I’m pretty sure upon visitation, most would prefer Duke right? While it could be a halo effect and its ranking, but it is indeed a very beautiful school and has the D-1 vibe a lot of students like and very strong students. I don’t think it’s as intellectually (students definitely have amazing intellect though. However, so do most of the students at other schools immediately surrounding Duke in rankings) intense as some (or even most) of the Ivies, and perhaps even Emory is slightly better in that area (but I feel only slightly, and probably because we are only D-3 and have an abnormally strong writing/literary scene and stuff. I imagine it would be a more profound difference if the students were equally strong which they aren’t), but again, I don’t see how you can tell these things from a visit. You would mainly see architecture, campus plan, facilities in which case Duke is awesome. Emory is beautiful, has great facilities, but has less traditional architecture and hasn’t completed it’s “building boom” whereas Duke is more complete, has more likeable architecture (not many people hate Gothic or red brick!), and consistently excellent facilities. What wouldn’t he like about it (I like the Gothic architecture for example). Did he just pick up on vibes that he didn’t like or something because I don’t see how you could tell much about the academics through a visitation. I suppose </p>

<p>Emory could be more “cozy” or “personal”, but again, I don’t know how you would see that (maybe if you see more students having an in depth conversation or hanging out with instructors after class, but again, I don’t know if a visiting student would be able to pick up on things like that. Emory has crap tons of that, but I can’t say that Duke doesn’t have an equal or better amount. I just know that students brought it up as an issue when they were considering how to improve Duke’s intellectual life and it wasn’t but so long ago. Usually Emory students don’t complain as much about the level of faculty-student engagement beyond the classroom partly because many don’t care for that and partly because many faculty do want it so it’s very easy for those students who do care to establish a great relationship with many instructors whether it be intellectually or more of a mentoring sort of thing). Emory has many remnants of its old liberal arts vibe I feel (seems as if it’s desperately holding on or trying to bring it back). But to many outsiders, this can make it feel “confusing” or lacking of identity/not having direction. </p>

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<p>@ennisthemenace: Yes, you used the reputational rankings! I thought I said that the reputation lags. For some of those (go look at pharm, immunology, chemistry, etc), if you look at the other parts of the table they are comparable! You are only considering reputation. Look at the S-rank (how they fare in areas that “scholars” think are most important). Many programs are more comparable than different in that area. Duke has a better name, so even when close in the s-rank, we’ll often lose in the reputational rankings for obvious reasons. Come on now!</p>

<p>Even when we lose in the s-ranking (which we do often perhaps even always-so lets say for areas that both schools are supposedly strong at), it’s not by as much as people would expect it. We and Vanderbilt fare much better than folks would think.</p>

<p>As an example: Look at this for biochemistry: <a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Cell and Developmental Biology”>http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-Cell/124711/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Emory creams them in the s-rank and they cream us in the reputational rankings. That’s a “halo” effect. Sometimes the “r-ranking” seems more like “this program looks like and is structured like the other top programs” which could mean that a different structure or even innovation is not rewarded in this category. The s-rank kind of says, “well in what matters, they do well or maybe they could be doing better”.</p>

<p>Happens again for neuroscience: <a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Neuroscience and Neurobiology”>http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124747/&lt;/a&gt;
except that it’s much closer in each category (whereas for biochem/developmental, they are blowing each other out). </p>

<p>Oh look, an exception (anthropology): <a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Anthropology”>http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124703&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Emory loses in s-rank and then wins in reputational/r-rank (I feel like Yerkes and public health is giving us a lot of help in the reputational area). </p>

<p>Pharmacology is also an exception (Emory I believe is inflated reputationally here because drug discovery is really successful here, only trailing the whole UC-system in some years. I get the feeling that many people think of that when they here pharm and Emory, when lots of that stuff is also helped or even coming out of chemistry, the cancer center, Yerkes, and immunology. I don’t think pharm is being rated in isolation basically. Kind of like what I said for anthro)</p>

<p>Apparently, both schools kick butt in religion (I know Emory even kicks butt at the UG level. That dept. is awesome, and the instruction and caliber of discussion in those courses are awesome, so from experience, that’s one of the few depts. where the grad. division quality trickles down): <a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Religion”>http://chronicle.com/article/nrc-religion/124664/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>We’re both also excellent in microbiology: <a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Microbiology”>http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124745/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Political Science: <a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Political Science”>http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124714/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Bigger gap in r-rank than s-rank. Joy! But we are both excellent obviously!</p>

<p>Same scenario for ecology (I didn’t know Emory excelled in this. However, both Duke and Emory are ripe for success in this area given their geography and locations. Also, the quality of this grad. program rubs off on undergraduate courses in ecology, organismal, and evolutionary biology. These are some of the best courses in the biology department for undergrads): <a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Ecology and Evolutionary Biology”>http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-Ecology/124723/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>French: <a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: French and Francophone Language and Literature”>http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-French/124732/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Duke is awesome (top) there, but so is Emory and Columbia, however, look at how Columbia beats us in the s-rank a little despite the s-rank highs being the same and the low having Emory with an edge.</p>

<p>The one that makes the most sense I guess is immunology (this one is awesome!): <a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Immunology and Infectious Disease”>http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124738/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>However, why is Duke winning at the low end of the r-rank and also losing by like 6 on the high end, but for the things that matter, we are only separated by 2 and 5 (high/low, with Emory having an edge on both). </p>

<p>The way people discuss differences, they act as if schools trail Duke by like 20-30 spots in every category in which the other schools are strong, and it just kind of isn’t the case. Duke is of course stronger in more categories (all that work they’ve done isn’t for nothing, but let’s not pretend other peer institutions generally regarded as completely inferior aren’t working and are light-years behind in every category). </p>

<p>Done editing and adding examples: This just kind of proves my point that perception, allure, or reputation can inflate or deflate people’s outlook on actual quality of schools. Even academics are prone to this. The difference between the r and s-ranking makes this obvious, with many of them saying “well for the stuff that really matters, they are similar or better than many would think, but unfortunately the other is structured more like Harvard’s, so I like it better”. This very much reminds of that stupid conversation we had when you said: “How can Emory students do chemistry at that level when Berkeley students are far superior?”, and of course they weren’t (stats. show it). In that case, they were identical. I think you should have been asking: “Why aren’t the Vanderbilt students being pushed harder” instead of going on the preconceived notion that Emory students are inferior to Berkeley students (Vanderbilt was the outlier, not us or Berkeley, yet you were surprised when Emory had rigor, just like you are surprised when I say that some programs at Emory are comparable to those at Duke), but anyway…at least this time, we can agree that Duke is of course stronger overall, just not by as much as we are told to believe and not in every little category (though many). </p>

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<p>Yes, you also said to go to Duke over Rice because Duke was “better”, however, I’m again, not too sure about the undergraduate experience, especially in the sciences…And the two schools have completely different intellectual vibes (Rice being much better than the most selective southern schools), and both have D-1. Duke certainly feeds into top schools and prestigious prizes much better, but that’s a no brainer…the students are really good, get high grades , etc. Duke doesn’t have to do all that much (kind of like Harvard, MIT, Caltech, Princeton, Yale, and Chicago don’t, yet they do anyway. Much more so than peer institutions with equally good students, they really push their student bodies academically. And sometimes, prize winning/prof. school placement won’t show it all the time. Chicago is an example). We, for example, had a year where we had a comparable amount of UGs get the Fulbright as Duke. Was Emory just better back then? I don’t think so. Also, this year (or last), Duke finished behind Penn for amount of prize awardees for something (I forget), but I don’t think either is better than Harvard for undergraduate education. It means that the student body is really good and pursues such awards disproportionately (like that year, where Emory students displayed more interest than normal in the Fulbright and were successful. BTW, we had a similar amount be successful that year with like 1/2 the amount of applicants as Duke. Again, I don’t think Emory did that…I imagine we would do better more consistently if the student body were better. Emory need not do that much academically, though I hope it keeps working to improve). If you aren’t good, being at Duke won’t help all that much if you’re pre-med or something. Med. schools and law schools don’t cut much of a break (MBA programs, maybe more so. Like if you go through CS, econ., engineering or something at Duke, that would be a tremendous advantage because they are very rigorous programs). I would only pick Duke based on institutional character and the values that the OP describes, not some hope that it will place them into a better medical program. That’s faulty logic (especially in light of the HS experience they described). I wouldn’t simply go because Duke is better (it being “better” doesn’t improve med. school chances). </p>

<p>As a pre-grad/scientist, I think I should have applied to Duke, Harvard, and places like that because their molecular cell biology courses are far more plentiful and are intellectually rigorous (we have great courses too, but not many UG molbio/developmental courses. Mostly genetics and evol. biol type of things are Emory’s strength. The one cell biology and the physical biology course was excellent though, even for top schools. However there just aren’t that many. Luckily our chemistry courses are excellent, so that was good training. Many other schools with good programs tailor their upper level biology courses to scientists, so you don’t really find any fact regurgitation type of instructors at a place like Harvard or even Duke. You’ll still find some at Emory that pre-meds looking for an easier grade will flow into. I’ve had the misfortune of running into some of these classes/instructors). However, I could have really afforded the extra rigor and coursework in molbio because I don’t/didn’t have to maintain more or less perfect GPA to get into graduate programs. I would tell a pre-med to be cautious, and consider where the better teaching is in the pre-health courses (and consider the competition as well) and where they could succeed or be happy. I think OP could succeed at both if they work hard (at Emory, they could take the better/more difficult instructors in life sciences and still do well because the competition isn’t as intense), but will also be happier at Duke (and Duke life sciences, is more uniformly rigorous in a good way, so OP won’t have a choice but to take courses that make them think/problem solve. The following temptation cannot occur: “I hear X is teaching Y biology course in the spring and their class is all memorization, so I’ll take them!” thus perhaps increasing your chance of a lower MCAT score. Duke will not tempt you with that as much), so may perform well despite the competition. If OP can actually see themselves in both environments (socially), then I would still consider Emory. If they were pre-science/research, I would say definitely Duke honestly. Not as many instructors who clearly cater specifically to the pre-health types. Too much of that Emory, often leads to some courses being watered down. The best instructors that “good” pre-meds and pre-grads. should (and do) take don’t do this, but the fact that you can find a reasonable of instructors who are like the former is not good IMHO (as said for both pre-grads and pre-healths, these instructors look tempting, and that isn’t good and will lower your level of training if you give into it. Sometimes it may be better to go to the place that doesn’t even allow that sort of option), It’s the current weakness in some of the courses. At least Duke doesn’t really have that. </p>

<p>But anyway: Keep some balance of your happiness and performance in mind. I’d advocate for Duke more, but what worries me is the thing you said about HS.</p>

<p>The following scenario could occur for you if you came to Emory for example: You take the best/most rigorous instructors. Say you’re in organic chemistry: You can take Dr. Weinschenk or Soria (who are far more difficult and probably better than Duke analogs: I could post materials to prove it. Instructors at both schools are difficult, but these 2 and a couple of other Emory instructors have a different kind of difficulty rare outside of places like Harvard for example. Same goes for some biology courses/instructors that I think better students at Emory should take. They are unusually rigorous and train well for grad. school, grebiochem, and MCAT) and perhaps still do well. Dr. Weinschenk grades on a curve (as is common in very difficult courses at selective schools) and you get a 75-78 on each exam. Because the course mean was 64, you get an A- (you were at the bottom of the top quintile). However, at Duke, you take the same course with a different level of instruction, but it’s still a challenging environment and the students are better, so you score the same, 75-78. Unfortunately, since it’s Duke, even with a similar mean (which likely wouldn’t happen, but after seeing how Vandy students perform on their exams, I’m not sure…), a 75-78 does not place you in the top quintile (say course is curved to B-/B like Emory) but instead the top 30-35% because the distribution is wider and a lot of people did better (as opposed to the Emory course where a huge chunk are scoring in the vicinity of the mean/median and not as many are scoring much higher) so you get a B+ instead. So in such a case, you could have had higher quality instruction and a better grade…Given this, I recommend Duke with reservations. Work harder than you did in HS and don’t tell yourself that the others are smarter/will always do better. Fix that so that you can maximize Duke, or else you probably just should have come to Emory and “sucked it dry” so to speak. I think Duke is good if you just fixed whatever you did in HS (because unfortunately, pre-med is a competition, and grades in these courses at both schools are curved harshly and you don’t want to take easier instructors because it will hurt later. You want to take the most rigorous instructor that you can do well in and actually get something out of the course). </p>

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<p>Bernie, you are talking in circles right now and ignoring the main crux of my argument that Duke’s graduate programs are substantially stronger than Emory’s and the NRC rankings in most of the subject areas put us 20-30 spots ahead of Emory. This is a substantial difference that you are ignoring.</p>

<p>Very little separates Duke from UChicago in comparison.</p>

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<p>@ennisthemenace: For things involving science: Duke is not 20-30 places ahead of Emory (or Vanderbilt), and nor is it in several non-science areas. The OP is pre-med, get real and accept that the two are not as different in the life and natural sciences (and even some non-sciences deemed popular at both) as you would like to believe. The NRC bares it out! There is no talking in circles. Chemistry, Pharmacology, biochemistry, immunology, neuroscience, biochemistry/developmental, anthropology, all are comparable at the two. Let’s be real here. Also, I wasn’t talking about grad. programs when I brought Chicago into the conversation. Everyone understands that Chicago’s undergraduate curriculum is unusually rigorous (You think there is no reason explaining why people always advise pre-meds to go to another elite school over Chicago? Do you simply believe it’s because of grade deflation, which they don’t really have…It’s because the curriculum is plain hard in comparison to similarly ranked/regarded schools. It’s no HYPSMCt, but it and Columbia are much closer than many of the other schools are for UG rigor and academic experience. Say what you want about the social life…) even for similarly ranked UG institutions and those similarly ranked in graduate programs. It’s certainly more rigorous and intellectually intense than most top 20 schools. It’s kind of like how Vanderbilt, HYPM, and Washington University have similar student bodies on paper now, but we know that there is an undergraduate academic pecking order. Hell, even Johns Hopkins science (and non-science) programs at the UG level has more rigor than a lot of schools with better student bodies/that rank higher. </p>

<p>Even when the numbers are so obvious, you don’t buy it. Again, the student is pre-med. They should think about quality of life, fun, competition, and quality of the science instruction. For life sciences, the NRC doesn’t predict too much of a difference (of course for physical, quantitative and computational it does) in areas that matter to most pre-meds (who mostly gravitate toward life sciences). Is it really hard to believe that they are also going to be not as different at the UG level for these sorts of things? Get with it man. Most undergrads. aren’t going to “feel” how much stronger a school is overall, especially when they are pre-med (and if that pre-med was interested in political science, environmental science/ecology, foreign language history, or religion to pursue outside of their science courses, which many actually do at Emory. It won’t make too much of a difference. Even if you believe that grad. programs trickle down to UG, which they do in some cases). They’ll only feel it when they are getting a B in some class chock full of gunners (which has nothing to do with the actual quality of the course). </p>

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<p>Duke has a lot more superstar science students than Emory and is a better regarded school for medical school admissions.</p>

12

<p>Duke. No question.</p>

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<p>Yes, medical schools care so much more about GPA and MCAT scores that attending Duke vs, Emory will make all of the difference lol. A 3.4 at Duke vs. a 3.7 (or even the same GPA) at Emory with the same courseload and MCAT are totally different. The Duke person will be cut more slack. Also, those superstar science students (which other places don’t have) will help the OP beat the curve at Duke. This is starting to make lots of sense. I see it now…Yep, go to Duke with no reservations. Don’t actually think and reflect on your HS experience with competition. Go to Duke because it’s name and education will get you anywhere! Once you step onto campus, things will just start falling into place and all problems will be solved instantly…Wow! Seriously, this is like going to HYP just because…For pre-med, it’s critical to consider many factors.</p>

<p>Duke for social environment, fun, and I would even say academics (overall I guess) if you were confident, but I don’t know if you should go if you aren’t really confident. If you aren’t absolutely solid and get a 3.6+ and a reasonable MCAT, it won’t really make a difference. And the life/natural sciences won’t likely differ all that much, hate to say it. </p>

<p>But it’s really your choice, please don’t let us and society choose for you. Think about your confidence, abilities, what your goals are, and how each school will help you achieve it. I nor anyone here can tell you that. </p>

<p>Confidence: Duke
Less confidence: Emory</p>

<p>Outside of this and “fun”, it won’t really make much of a difference. The rest is up to you. You have to perform, not Duke or Emory. </p>