Emory vs UC Berkeley OOS

I’ve been admitted to both of these schools and am having a hard time choosing! I am planning on majoring in something within the Biological Sciences (and doubling with Economics) on a premed track. Which of these schools would give me the best chance at medical schools (especially those in the Northeast, or if that doesn’t work out, PhD programs)?

While I love both schools and have visited both, I personally like the Berkeley environment better (sounds weird, but I think I thrive in stress?) but I’m worried about the competitive student body/lack of funding/somewhat sketchy surrounding area/weeder courses/fighting for opportunities vs Emory’s plenty research opportunities/well-known premed program/beautiful Druid Hills campus/close proximity to Atlanta without being in the middle of the city. However, I love California and San Francisco, and I love Cal’s school spirit and general vibe. Cal does have an amazing name so I’m assuming that its premed is great as well?

Also, I know Emory is great for premed, but if I decide not to pursue medicine or biology (unlikely, but I know that a lot of people change their minds in college!) would Cal be a safer choice?

Was also wondering if anyone can give me insight into how accessible research opportunities/extra help from professors/clinical experience opportunities/premed advising are at both of these schools as well.

Money is not an issue- my parents are generously covering my undergraduate tuition/costs - but the cost of Emory is 10k less than Berkeley.

Thanks in advance!

Emory is great for the sciences and 25% of all juniors and seniors are in the business school. There are several other strong majors as well. Cal also has a great business school. However, reading between the lines of your post, it appears that you would be kicking yourself if you didn’t go to Cal. You should ask more questions on the Emory page of College Confidential and same for UC-Berkeley.

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-berkeley/2071932-grade-distributions-in-prerequisite-courses-for-gpa-based-goals.html suggests that UCB is a tough place grade-wise for premeds.

Since it is also the more expensive school for you, what is the main attraction versus Emory, including if you do not go to medical school like most premeds?

@ucbalumnus just that I feel like I fit better at Berkeley—and though the location is a little dangerous, I love California and San Francisco.

How are the academics/quality of education for both schools at the undergraduate level?

Also @ucbalumnus I think the fact that Cal has alumni everywhere could help for internships/jobs/etc.

While cal has a reputation for being dangerous, I think it’s often exaggerated. I’m from the area and go to berkeley 1-2x a week, usually at night, and have never once felt unsafe on the campus or in the downtown. I honestly think it’s a great place to go to college- amazing public transport, right in the city so there’s so much good food that’s all walkable, the greek for concerts, etc.

The academics and quality of education at either are the envy of the universe. Your in the top 1 percent of the worlds population in terms of educational opportunity.

Berkeley will have tougher competition top to bottom in stem disciplines. But loaded at both schools.

Berkeley is in Northern California so it is nice but not San Diego nice. Emory is Atlanta with warm humid summer fall and lovely springs and temperate winters.

Berkeley is a hub of student activism and is a big place comparatively. Emory less so.

There will be some localized exposure to homelessness and drugs near Berkeley that can be intimidating but probably not too different than parts of Atlanta.

@bernie12 can probably help you with respect to biology/chemistry academics (has posted previously some comparisons of Emory versus other schools based on looking at course materials and exams from the various schools).

Expect UCB to have mostly high quality rigorous academics, delivered in an economy-class manner (e.g. huge classes at the lower levels and in popular majors), although specific subjects and courses may vary. As noted above, pre-med competition for the relatively small number of A- and better grades will be fierce. If UCB is the more expensive school, it may not be that favorable a choice for a pre-med.

Haha, this is a nice break from putting finishing touches on my capstone grant

@ucbalumnus : “Berkeley will have tougher competition top to bottom in stem disciplines. But loaded at both schools.”

Do you necessarily agree with that statement? I kind of don’t The student body caliber seems extremely similar overall, and is thus even more top heavy in STEM at either to the point that there is no point in splitting hairs over student body quality. I mean you have your own form of UCB pride and I Emory pride, but I think it would be irrational to expect less competition. I would expect engineering at UCB to get even more intense students than say biology or chemistry (though it depends if you are in UCB Arts and Letters or in the School of Chemistry itself), but is there something I am missing. Is UCB known for simply a more competitive ATMOSPHERE, and Emory isn’t? This I can perhaps imagine, but I do not think it would come from differences in grading (which are less than people are led to believe. Emory’s overall grades have actually decreased likely do to a grading curve scheme being suggested for all economics core courses. It dropped from about 3.39 to 3.34 graduating GPA in like a year. Estimates have UCB’s “average grade awarded” at about 3.29 in 2014 and several years prior: http://www.gradeinflation.com/Ucberkeley.html . Considering that this is NOT a graduating a graduating GPA, and includes freshman and lower-classmen, the GPA upon graduation is likely closer to Emory’s which fluctuates from year to year, though that drop between 2016 and 2017 is dramatic. It is what happens when you implement sweeping changes to a department that is nearly the top major and was known for more inflation before the implementation).

As far as I know, grading is strikingly similar in STEM at both in the introductory and intermediate courses. Emory is a little different from other top research 1 privates in that it has TRIED to avoid “economy style” courses as you put it, but the increase in enrollment is having/is likely to continue to have an effect. Still, I suppose Emory is technically more “cozy” overall for the “masses” (as in a basic introductor or intermediate course will typically be run at a similar level at both. I do think generally introductory biology is still harder at Emory, while things like physics and mathematics are harder at UCB. Gchem and ochem are likely on par for a “normal” instructor). As you know, I really like UCB’s honors STEM courses in chemistry for example. Technically you can get something similar through professor selection at Emory, but since they are not honors and do not have parameters on who can enroll, you have to compete against all people interested, and oddly enough, some of these very challenging instructors are surprisingly popular (one named Weinschenk can fill the seats, but there is always my old teacher Dr. Soria).

@stressedhelpme : I’m sorry, but this just isn’t a difference between the two: competitive student body/weeder courses. You have to keep in mind that Emory is EXTREMELY pre-professional which contributes to a “work harder and then play” atmosphere that can also be very “nervous”. Top majors at Emory include business (has a grade distribution where they actually can and do curve downward versus the standard scale), economics (adopted b-school grading curve. Their solution in easier/medium courses is to set the solid A grade to upwards to 96. Students need to essentially be perfect on the exams offered, as well as other assignments which are perhaps prone to more “subjective” grading), biology coming in at 3, nursing at 4, a STEM-intensive psychology major at 5 (the TWO introductory psychology courses are weedouts oddly enough), and NBB and math are somewhere in the top 10, and chemistry may be just outside of it but is one of the largest chemistry departments in terms of majors in the countries, especially among privates. The point is, very much like UCB (maybe even more so), you have folks heavily clustered in these super serious majors either directly associated with a profession or indirectly (I believe political science is in the top 10, standard pre-law major). Do not let the green campus with the sun shining fool you.

They both have that as they have different strengths, but many courses, especially in the pre-med core are pitched at about the same level and they tend to be “curved” or land somewhere between a C+/B- and a B average with something around a B- as a typical target. This scheme is used at Cal, other top publics, as well as a few other elite privates such as Emory, Vanderbilt, WUSTL and Johns Hopkins. What matters is not how “weeder” they are, but how rigorous they are content wise and expectations wise. If one has a very mediocre lecturer or a straight up bad lecturer, the course can technically be pitched at a very “standard” level, but still require a curve or land at the B- target because the students struggle to succeed with the lackluster instructor. Basically, in some cases it doesn’t take a very “difficult” course to yield the “elite” bell-curve (C+/B- to B-). And if you do not trust me, I can post course materials from some schools that have great students on paper, yet a very standard exam yields averages in the low 70s or worse. I have a bunch of Emory course materials and a lot of Berkeley’s are on line. Things get muddled in upper division courses because it is strongly professor dependent at either.

@stressedhelpme :
https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-university-search/university-of-california-berkeley

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-university-search/emory-university

*look at breakdown of majors-extremely concentrated in certain “serious” things at both. Never let a campus’s look fool you. Sometimes even a “feel” can be manufactured especially if you visited in early fall semester or late spring when campuses are very festive and recruitment efforts are intense.

Also, as an example:
Here is Dr. Dillon’s grade distribution for 2017 in bio 1A:

https://www.berkeleytime.com/grades/?course1=710-DILLIN,A_1-spring_2017
Here is one the exams from their course for bio 1A 2017: https://tbp.berkeley.edu/exams/5806/download/

There are a couple of good items that are obviously to separate students, but there aren’t that many overall. Most of those items are pretty low level and the mean is still a B-. Instructors at Emory who give exams with more higher level items as well as short answer sometimes yield averages at a solid B level. If they give an exam like that (and there is one instructor who does, but actually has started incorporating short answer, but his MC questions include fewer higher level items than other sections), the averages can go near about 86 mean per exams. My guess is that the difference is not in the students, but is in the class size and maybe how the course is taught. Like all biology instructors use active learning methods that go beyond learning catalytics or clicker technology. They may have cases or POGIL activities, so that is more conducive to students performing better on higher level items. At the end of the day, I don’t think an instructor who gives exams at that level should yield a solid B- average even in a pure lecture (or lecture with clickers) format. To me based upon that and the content tested, that instructor’s course does not meet my definition of a true weeder but does indeed yield a B- at UCB (though admittedly it is possible that biology majors and those taking intro. biology may be far more heterogeneous than a cohort taking chemistry. At a very selective school like Emory or Cal, a chemistry course with a B-/B average probably is decently challenging).

I did not write that (@privatebanker did in reply #6), and do not have enough information to agree or disagree with it, although a broad reading covering all possible “stem disciplines” seems unlikely to be true.

@ucbalumnus @bernie12

I stand by my opinion. Sure. I believe that UCBs location in SV and unique national and international reputation/appeal in the sciences will call for a more uniformly gifted class “too to bottom” In any stem major.

But as I also said “but loaded at both schools”.

Which was intended to show that there will be equally gifted students at both schools. I was speaking to the uniformity of the class strength against grading curve in stem. Non stem is a different opinion.

Also I said both schools put them “in the top 1 percent of the world”

It seems that any perceived slight of the most microscopic variety call for criticism. Good lord.

Emory is the better school, cheaper, and will give you a better chance at med school.

@privatebanker :

“I believe that UCBs location in SV and unique national and international reputation/appeal in the sciences will call for a more uniformly gifted class “too to bottom” In any stem major.”

This is faulty and the course materials just don’t support that regardless of differences in reputation (which can come from age BTW). Berkeley also has a bigger reputation than WUSTL yet I can tell you that its (WUSTL) undergraduate STEM courses are much more intense than places with similar and better reputations (likely including UCB). I used to conflate the two as well, but it usually doesn’t pan out that way. I’m sorry, but “international” reputation has much to do with research and graduate programs. To some extent there can be a correlation, but one could see many cases that selectivity aided with smaller size helps significantly. Many (as in a disproportionate amount) of those who go on to graduate school and then academia came from LACs of all levels because STEM education is more rigorous and meaningful at them. Hardly none of them have international fame for their contributions in STEM yet several of the top and very top tier can take many top privates and publics for a ride in their undergraduate programs.

*We really need to learn to decouple “international reputation in STEM” from “undergraduate course rigor” when comparing these super selective undergraduate schools. Sometimes it trickles down to undergraduate coursework and sometimes it doesn’t. It depends on specifically how undergraduate education is treated on a departmental basis.

@CU123 : That depends on the person.

@bernie12 not really.

Berkeley is renowned for chemistry and biological research as well, but based upon what I have seen, I cannot say that those undergraduate programs and courses would require or even call for students that are more gifted. Again the course materials and the grading just do not suggest this to be the case. When we do this, we also assume things do not change at institutions and that there is direct trickle down from research to UG education. Schools can also undergo curricular reform, changes in enrollment size (increases in that or decreases in funding for UG education can lead to deterioration as more professors will heavily rely on close-ended items and multiple choice, perhaps low tier items on Bloom’s taxonomy). The research apparatus will often have nothing to do with these things that affect UG education, so we need to be careful when we make these weird assumptions).

@ucbalumnus : I just asked you what you thought of what they said because you went there lol @privatebanker appears to have fell into the “research reputation equals more rigorous undergraduate courses, and thus requires more gifted students” trap. As you know, beyond a certain threshold, I think this is absolute non-sense (I just go straight to the course materials if I can and make a judgement). In fact, there are sadly cases where the inverse is true, especially when you talk about junior tenure track faculty that teach STEM courses (much talk of reform of STEM undergraduate has focused on how research universities can do certain things because many LACs and pre-dominantly undergraduate places are quite a bit ahead regardless of selectivity). Lots of research supports the issues that come with being a research university and how it can negatively impact undergraduate education. Elite research universities are certainly not immune as far as I can tell.

@CU123 : If you were a CS, physics, math, or engineering major who cares about the undergraduate culture and quality of courses and number of course offerings in those area (yes even if you were pre-health…some pre-healths also care about the quality and rigor of their STEM courses too. They have to take an MCAT or want to do research or get internships in their areas of interests and some do major outside of life sciences), you would choose Emory? Let us not be ridiculous. I am an Emory grad, but I’m not that silly to think such a thing.

delete.

@bernie12

No you missed my point completely. I was opining only on what I would perceive as the uniformly talented and focused undergrad student cohort that occupy thr stem majors at ucb vs Emory

Because they, like me , fall for the historical impact, reputation and research that comes out of UCB grad and PhD labs.

And the proximity in Silicon Valley to the science nerd elite.

Especially with super high achieving west Asian and East Asian students from overseas who are not applying at the same rate to Emory

@privatebanker : Yeah, but those are in CS, Physics, and engineering. I bet pre-med and life sciences there will mirror any elite school with a similar level of selectivity and rank. There probably won’t be much of a difference in the life sciences. Also, those who can’t get in OOS (assuming there is much overlap, I don’t think there is) who are extremely qualified end up elsewhere including places like Emory and lower Ivies. I honestly think California has a lot of competition because of UCSD (heavily STEM focused, very selective), UCLA, even Stanford which is much more lax for an incoming stats point of view than its near peers so can grab up a signifcant amount of the “paper imperfect” talent (as in future entrepreneur). A pre-med is a pre-med and unless, going to STEM oriented places like Georgia Tech, MIT, Stanford (add others) is less likely to think about those things if they are planning to major in the life sciences. I doubt there is any “special effects” for those considering life sciences at Cal, especially among pre-healths. I just don’t know how to define “talent” here. It would be hard to measure and then even harder if I restrict to life sciences. Lots of “geniuses” at either would probably be in physics, math, and CS (Emory does not offer engineering).

Also, most truly “gifted” (are we talking students with a research record or something…Emory gets a lot of those in the life sciences perhaps because it is known for strong life sciences undergraduate programs even if not the “allure” of the whole school) students usually accelerate (place into honors/special or upper division courses) and would not be competing against the the larger pool of pre-healths, so they are kind of irrelevant in terms of describing the “competition” (at least not in course work). If they are relevant, it suggests that most of the most gifted at a school takes shortcuts or don’t accelerate which would raise more questions than answers about the atmosphere of a school. And when it comes to research and ECs, it is more about individual impact because tons high caliber opps will be easily available at either school even for those who are not the most “gifted”. Ultimately, they will be compared against whoever applies to their medical schools of interest in that regard and of course all applicants will not come from a single university. I just don’t think it has a relevant impact. The range is too restricted and similar in STEM (or anything) at either to make a judgement call.

@bernie12 This is a premed major…not any of the other majors you mention, if they were I would agree that CS and engineering are not Emory’s strong points.