I like Penn’s campus and their one university idea. I pretty much like Penn as a whole but don’t know much about their engineering department. Also, I looked at some career reports and about half of the engineers go into finance. This worries me because I actually want to be an engineer and there doesn’t seem to be much excitement or interest in actual engineering. Any Penn engineers on here that could provide insight on their experience in SEAS?
I’m in the same boat. Though I’m not too dead set on engineering, I’d be willing to do finance too.
I don’t mind that people want to go into finance, but it seems like engineering at Penn is becoming a backdoor for those who want a slightly better chance to get accepted than by applying to Wharton.
“I actually want to be an engineer and there doesn’t seem to be much excitement or interest in actual engineering. Any Penn engineers on here that could provide insight on their experience in SEAS?”
@Keasbey Nights just graduated from SEAS CIS, maybe he can comment.
“…it seems like engineering at Penn is becoming a backdoor for those who want a slightly better chance to get accepted than by applying to Wharton.”
First, since SEAS admission rate was lower than Wharton last year, that would not make any sense. Second, engineering is a lot of work even for the best students. If a student does not have a real interest in engineering, they are probably going to struggle. Third, the average Penn engineering student has two job offers by graduation, at a significant salary premium to what the average engineer is offered at other schools. That would not happen if they weren’t good at what they were doing. For CIS positions, for example, students almost always have to pass through regular interviews, and also technical interviews.
@“Keasbey Nights”
When you have an opportunity, could you reply to this post from a student perspective?
@Much2learn I was under the impression that although SEAS admission rate was lower, Wharton had a more competitive applicant pool. Of course I’m no expert but that’s what I’ve heard going through this forum. Also, isn’t the average salary higher because of the amount of engineers deciding to go into IB, whose total compensation per year is much more than a first year engineer?
http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/SEAS_CPSummaryPrelim_2015.pdf The report shows that 46% of engineers go into finance or consulting.
http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/SEAS_CPSurvey_2014.pdf Notice how financial services was the second most report by the respondents and financial services has the second highest average salary, with IT being first in number in industry and salary.
My intended major is mech engineering and most students in that major reported having a job as some sort of engineer which is a good sign I guess.
Either way, I’d love to hear Keasbey’s perspective.
@classof2017 @bluekou23 No wharton does not have a more competitive applicant/student body. the average wharton student is not really able to manage the rigor of Penn SEAS. Even the finance course offered at SEAS, ESE-400 (it is called Engineering Economics) is essentially a more rigorous, complex version of FNCE-100, which is offered by wharton. Penn SEAS is by no means a backdoor to anything. Also penn SEAS grads have such high salaries not only because many go to ibanking, but also because many go to top tech firms like Amazon, Facebook, Google, Apple etc (i mean engineering, science positions in those firms, not business positions). There are also many SEAS students who do amazing engineering research and want to actually work as engineers. The obsession with finance is a general phenomenon within the elite school circle, and is not specific to Penn. If you look at the career choices of Princeton, Harvard, Columbia engineers you will find that they are not really different from Penn engineers.
I feel the beauty of Penn in general and specifically SEAS is that you have a lot of flexibility to shape your experience. The world-class research, faculty, is there if you wanna pursue a super technical track. Also there are unique events like Penn Apps( the biggest and most prestigious hackathon in the country), which is organized by Penn SEAS. If you want engineering to be just a solid background upon you build your business career, you have the ability to make your experience less technical, supplement it with business and liberal arts courses and take advantage of the amazing (second to none really along with Harvard) business recruiting that penn offers.
@Penn95 One of the reasons I like Penn is the one university policy which allows students to take classes across schools. Will engineering majors have the opportunity to do this or is it hard with the engineering requirements? I bet engineers have some tough schedules but I would still like to take classes in my interests like law, politics, or business.
@classof2017 yes engineers need to take more credits than most other students and their classes tend to be harder. However there is still plenty of opportunity to take classes outside of engineering. All engineers have 10 elective course units (i.e 10 classes ). out of these, 7 must be in the humanities and social sciences and 3 are completely free (can choose class from any discipline). It is not hard to take more than 7 classes outside of the engineering requirements if you want to (take an extra course during one or more semesters, take a couple of summer classes- many freshmen and sophomores do that).
@classof2017 “I was under the impression that although SEAS admission rate was lower, Wharton had a more competitive applicant pool. Of course I’m no expert but that’s what I’ve heard going through this forum.”
I think that Wharton gets the best students in business. period I think that SEAS has more competition for engineering applicants, and tends to get top engineering students who value having access to great classes in broader subjects, students who are interested in dual majors programs like (Huntsman or Fischer), special programs (NETS or DMD) or majors where Penn SEAS is very strong like CIS, and students who like the environment at Penn. I do not know how the gpa and test score averages compare between Wharton and SEAS, but I suspect that SEAS is just as high as Wharton.
“Also, isn’t the average salary higher because of the amount of engineers deciding to go into IB, whose total compensation per year is much more than a first year engineer?”
I don’t think that SEAS grads are moving to average business jobs for the money because according to Penn’s reporting, the average SEAS grad is getting about a $6k higher offer than a Wharton grad. Perhaps they are taking some of the highest paying business jobs? idk CS jobs are hot and getting $100k at graduation is entirely possible for a student in demand. I suspect that with CIS being the most popular SEAS major that is more likely to be bumping the average up.
@classof2017 “http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/files/SEAS_CPSummaryPrelim_2015.pdf The report shows that 46% of engineers go into finance or consulting.”
It is certainly true that some are recruited into finance. Consulting is unclear to me whether they are doing business or Tech work. I suspect that a portion of them are working as tech consultants, not business consultants.
@Penn95 “There are also many SEAS students who do amazing engineering research and want to actually work as engineers.”
I can give you a good example of the business/engineering.
DD1 is a strong SEAS student with a CIS major and a math minor. Freshman summer (last summer) she was originally looking for a tech internship, but they can be difficult to get for freshmen. A Wharton professor offered her a paid research assistantship because they needed someone who could code Python and had a math minor to construct and manage a large and complex data network. She wasn’t trying to “back door” anything. She just ended up there because she had the skills they needed, and she had a great experience. This coming summer she already has a job lined up a one of the largest tech companies, and will be working on the Internet of Things in San Francisco. Penn tends to attract multi-talented students who may be planning to work in engineering, but are also flexible and may be willing to take the best opportunities that present themselves at the time.
@classof2017 “it seems like engineering at Penn is becoming a backdoor for those who want a slightly better chance to get accepted than by applying to Wharton.”
I think that, in general, the applicants are different. Typically the Wharton applicant has business ECs in high school and the SEAS applicant has math, science, coding, robotics or other engineering ECs. I think it is likely that a typical business student who tries to raise his/her chances by applying to SEAS will actually reduce them significantly.
I don’t think many SEAS grads take IB jobs because they were targeting IB all along. I think the IB firms understand that Penn SEAS is rigorous and that the students are very knowledgeable and accomplished, so they pursue the SEAS students. The student may be planning to work in engineering, but if the offer from the IB is good enough and the assignment interests them, they might be interested. Who wouldn’t?
While it’s true that a non-trivial percentage of Penn engineers go into banking and consulting, I wouldn’t worry at all about a lack of interest in actual engineering. Each engineering major sends students to top Ph.D and industry programs all the time. For comp sci, tons of people go into industry as software engineers. I know lots of bioengineering graduates working in medical devices, mechanical engineers working at companies like SpaceX, electrical engineers working on computer processors and digital signaling, etc. The coursework at SEAS is super rigorous, and
Moreover, I’d be really interested to see what those numbers are for Penn’s peer universities: what percentage of engineering students at competing universities go into business fields? I personally know Columbia and Northwestern engineering graduates who now work at McKinsey, so I’d be curious to see actual percentages.
I think that we can qualitatively attribute the career attrition of SEAS graduates into finance to a couple of factors:
- *Self-selected populations.* The average MIT applicant is going to have a higher propensity for pure engineering than the average Penn SEAS applicant. It's therefore more likely at Penn that an engineer might realize during her junior year that engineering isn't something she wants to pursue full-time, but it's too late to switch majors, than at MIT. This is also because Penn brands itself as a multidisciplinary university, and it therefore attracts students who might already be interested in business-related fields.
- *Mere exposure effect.* I'm not going to pretend that Wharton doesn't have any influence. I think it plays a very small, but non-trivial, role. But this is probably a good thing. Investment banking and consulting aren't jobs that most people learn about in high school. It's always good to expose people to more information so that they can make a more informed career choice.