Engineering Grad with Masters

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>I'm new to this so please excuse any misconceptions I have. Here is a little background:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Graduated the Unviersity of Michigan Ann Arbor with a Bachelors in Electrical Engineering (3.65 GPA, 3.92 GPA in major)</p></li>
<li><p>In my final semester at Lawrence Technological University for my Masters in Electrical Engineering (4.00 GPA)</p></li>
<li><p>Currently work full time as a Software Engineer, started 6/2004</p></li>
<li><p>Elec Eng Intern over my final 3 semesters of Undergrad, worked 20 hrs/wk</p></li>
<li><p>I have not volunteered at a hospital yet due to being a full time student and worker, however I plan on quitting my job and volunteering a year after I graduate with my Masters (May) because I will owe my company one year for paying for it.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>First question, how does my non-traditional background hurt or help me? I have a solid 3.65 undergraduate GPA at a very tough public university in a tough undergraduate program, I have a 3.92 GPA in my major and haven't received anything lower than an A- since my sophomore year (I have seen some schools weigh the GPA by favoring the Junior and Senior year opposed to the Fresh/Soph years). As mentioned I also have a 4.00 in my Masters (do they even care about my Masters?). I am aware that I will need to take the prereqs that I have missed in my undergraduate years and plan on taking them when I quit my job to go back to school.</p>

<p>I am torn between going to med school for primary care or for research as a MD/PHD with a PHD in Biomedical Engineering. Does my non-traditional background appeal to one program over the other? Should I feel comfortable in my chances of admission to med school?</p>

<p>I also have one more question about the way the AMCAS recalculates the GPA. I understand that they take all math/science courses into consideration. However, many of my Engineering courses such as Semiconductor Physics, Electromagnetics, Material Science, and Signals and Systems courses are almost science courses in themselves but are not offered by the physics, biology, or chem departments. Will/Can these be included in my AMCAS GPA? </p>

<p>Here are my undergrad courses (so far) that I know would count toward my Science GPA and the ones that I am unsure (but hope) if they count. I will need to take some more obviously and I will do that next year: </p>

<p>Calc I : A- (4 credits)
Calc II: A (4 credits)
Calc III: A (4 credits)
Diff EQ: A- (4 credits)
Prob Stat (400 level) : A (3 credits) </p>

<p>Mechanical Physics (Calc based) : A- (4 credits)
Associated Lab : A (1 credit)
Elect/Mag Physics (Calc based) : B- (4 credits)
Associated Lab : C+ (1 credit, only C in college) </p>

<p>Chemistry (100 level, inorganic) : A (4 credits)
Associated Lab : A (1 credit) </p>

<p>AP Biology (which I took in HS but will retake because I remember nothing) </p>

<p>Courses that I am unsure if they will count but are really physics based: </p>

<p>Semiconductor Physics : A (4 credits, offered by Elec Eng depart)
Electromagnetic Theory : A- (4 credits, offered by Elec Eng depart)
Material Science : A- (4 credits, offered by Material Science depart)
Engineering Analysis : A (4 credits, this is a graduate level Engineering Math course offered by the Engineering department) </p>

<p>I hear that retaking courses looks bad, but I'm assuming retaking the AP Biology won't hurt considering I never received a grade in it. Would you suggest retaking the Physics II course? I was sick during the end of the semester which hurt my grade, but really it is the only bad grade in my science courses. </p>

<p>Thanks again for any input.</p>

2

<p>well the very basic pre-med courses that you must complete before going to med school are:</p>

<p>2 semesters of Chem w/ associated lab
2 semesters of Bio w/ associated lab
2 semesters of physics w/ associated lab
2 semesters of Orgo w/ associated lab
2 semesters of English
and optionally 2 semesters of Calc/Math and biochemistry</p>

<p>So in other words you are missing another semester of chem, 2 semesters of bio, bio lab, 2 semesters of orgo and orgo lab. I am assuming that u'v done english.</p>

<p>Anyway to ur questions, your "nontraditional" background isnt very nontraditional. People apply to med school having varying degrees of education etc, it shouldnt play any role. As for stuff counting toward your science gpa, from what i understand you can classify things as "physics" and then AMCAS will change it if they dont think it fits.</p>

3

<p>Thanks for the reply,</p>

<p>I will be taking all of the prereqs that I missed in my undergrad years starting this fall at Michigan and will be done within a year. I have taken the English requirements with Bs (nothing great, as an Engineer I kind of half-assed the English courses, immature on my part but I was a freshman).</p>

4

<p>Actually, what I think you should do is start studying to take the MCAT as quickly as possible. Forget about all those prereqs that you don't have. Self-study your way to the MCAT.</p>

<p>If you score well on the MCAT, then you know you will have a decent shot at getting into med-school. However, if you bomb your MCAT, then you're probably not going to get in anywhere so it's all a moot point. So there's no need for you to waste any more of your time going down this road.</p>

<p>And, yes, in case you are wondering, you can take the MCAT before you complete your prereqs. Self-study is a wonderfully powerful tool. Yes, bio and OChem are hard, but not SO hard that you can't self-study for it just by getting the textbooks and reading them yourself. And besides, the bio and OChem courses at many schools are taught so poorly that the students who take those courses are basically self-studying anyway. Besides, the truth is, if you make a bonafide effort to self-study the MCAT and you bomb it, then you'd probably still have bombed it even if you had taken the actual prereq classes. </p>

<p>Presuming that you do decently on your MCAT, I would just say to go ahead an apply, and see if you get in anywhere, keeping in mind that if you do, then you will take all those missing prereqs before you matriculate (i.e. in the summer before med-school starts). Keep in mind that those prereqs have to be completed before you go to med-school, but not before you APPLY to med-school. It also means that you might be able to forgo that 1 year of volunteer work, if somebody admits you without it. The worst thing that can happen is that all the schools reject you. So what? You apply again the following year. </p>

<p>Now I do agree that there are a few schools, like Harvard Medical School, that only allow you to apply a certain number of times. However, the truth is, the chances of anybody getting into Harvard Medical School are so small anyway that it shouldn't impact your application strategy.</p>

5

<p>i really dont understand how sakky is assuming that any med school can make an informed decision on a candidate without seeing any orgo or bio grades at all. Also, how would you expect MichEngGrad to take all those courses over the summer, at some schools thats not even possible. Also, maybe u know him personally but I am assuming that MichEngGrad isnt rich so I dont know whether he'd wanna spend 300-500 bucks applying to a bunch of med school, getting rejected cause he clearly didnt fill most of the important requirements and then do it again and blow another few hundred on reapplying. Not to mention a cool $180 on the MCAT which isnt that easy if you havent taken bio and orgo seeing as thats a whole section on its own.
Sakky has been going around advertising for "self-study" and taking prereqs after applying, but the former doesnt work for most people and the latter will look like you are trying to hide a potentially poor preformance in vital science classes and should only be done if thats what you are actually trying to do.</p>

6

<p>
[quote]
i really dont understand how sakky is assuming that any med school can make an informed decision on a candidate without seeing any orgo or bio grades at all.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Simple. If you don't have the grades for certain classes, then the MCAT sections that correspond to those classes obviously gets weighted more.</p>

<p>Think of it this way. If I have never taken Biology or OChem, but I get a perfect 15 on the Biological section of the MCAT anyway, is there really any dispute that I don't know that stuff? </p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, how would you expect MichEngGrad to take all those courses over the summer, at some schools thats not even possible

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not possible? Really? Look, I'm sure you can stitch it together. Just take all those classes at one or more community colleges. It doesn't have to be done at only 1 school. Nor do the classes have to be done for grades. They just have to be done just to fulfill the requirements. </p>

<p>If you get admitted into a medical school, I'm sure you will be able to go to find a bunch of community colleges all located close by to each other in which you can study at for that summer to complete all your missing requirements. If this is not true at your location you are at now, then relocate for the summer to someplace that is. AFter all, you are probably going to have to relocate for your med-school anyway, so what's so terrible about relocating for your summer classes? </p>

<p>
[quote]
Also, maybe u know him personally but I am assuming that MichEngGrad isnt rich so I dont know whether he'd wanna spend 300-500 bucks applying to a bunch of med school, getting rejected cause he clearly didnt fill most of the important requirements and then do it again and blow another few hundred on reapplying. Not to mention a cool $180 on the MCAT which isnt that easy if you havent taken bio and orgo seeing as thats a whole section on its own.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But that's part of the game of med-school. Most med-school applicants blow THOUSANDS of dollars in applying to med-school, paying for their own tickets to go to interviews (med-schools rarely pay for this), paying for MCAT prep courses, and all that stuff. That's how the game is played. So MichEngGrad wouldn't be doing anything different. At least MichEngGrad has a job. Most people who apply to med-school are still college students. Ask yourself - what money do they have? Yet they still somehow manage to find a way to pay. </p>

<p>And besides, think of it this way. How wasteful would it be for MichEngGRad to take a bunch of classes to fulfill his requirements, only to find out later that he can't get into any med-school? I think that would be far more money than whatever he might be spending on all that app stuff. </p>

<p>Look, the fact is, medicine is a high-stakes game. Med-school itself costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. So when you look at it that way, what's another few more thousand? </p>

<p>
[quote]
Sakky has been going around advertising for "self-study" and taking prereqs after applying, but the former doesnt work for most people and the latter will look like you are trying to hide a potentially poor preformance in vital science classes and should only be done if thats what you are actually trying to do.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would argue that self-study works for the VAST MAJORITY of people simply because the sad truth is that most premed classes are taught quite poorly, such that you're basically force to go down the self-studying route anyway. Ask the premeds at Caltech how well taught their classes are. Ask the premeds at Berkeley. Ask the premeds at many large public schools. I would say that many if not most of them would concede that their classes really did not provide much 'value-add' over what they could have learned just by reading the book themselves. </p>

<p>
[quote]
the latter will look like you are trying to hide a potentially poor preformance in vital science classes and should only be done if thats what you are actually trying to do.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Like I said, my first suggestion is not to apply to med-school. It's to self-study and take the MCAT. Once you get your MCAT score, you can see whether you want to proceed further or not. </p>

<p>My basic thesis is this. The saddest part of the whole med-school app process is not that it is so difficult. Rather, it is plenty of people go through the entire process of taking all these premed classes, MCAT exams, and volunteer experience - and STILL don't get in anywhere. So basically, they did all that stuff for nothing. Think about all that wasted time and money. I would say that if you're not going to make it to med-school, then optimally speaking, you should know that as soon as possible so that you don't waste your time. Ideally and theoretically, only those people who are actually going to make it to med-school should be the ones to actually take pre-med classes. Obviously that is impossible, but what you can do is get signals to be able to gauge your chances. That is why I advocate taking the MCAT rather early, and prepping for it through self-study. That way, you will actually get a signal as to whether you really have a viable chance of getting into med-school. If you make a bonafide effort to self-study, and you bomb the MCAT anyway, then your chances are probably slim and you can probably elect to abort.</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
If I have never taken Biology or OChem, but I get a perfect 15 on the Biological section of the MCAT anyway, is there really any dispute that I don't know that stuff?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I dont know how u define "the stuff" exactly because what you learn in class is alot more than what is required for the MCAT. Orgo class was nothing like what you need for the orgo MCAT and being good at the MCAT has a correlation with the amount of practice you get from studying for exams and doing prob sets for the class where it isnt multiple choice and you need to come up with your own answer. As a result, you are better able to predict the answer to MCAT questions before looking at the answer chioces which makes you work more quickly and get more right. </p>

<p>As for the money...if you take the classes then you gained knowledge for the money you put in, if you just apply to med school for the hell of it, even though it is obvious you are not as good a candidate as you can be then you are just throwing away cash when you arent actually confident in what you are doing. In other words, there is no loss in taking a class but there is thousands of dollars worth when going through the application process and ending up where you started.</p>

8

<p>I tend to agree with Shraf more than Sakky. </p>

<p>1) The MCAT is not a substitute for grades for the same reason that SAT scores don't override low GPA's. Your grades indicate how well you can handle tough science classes within the context of a full course load. Your MCAT score is based on a small sample of questions. I had a whopping 9 questions on organic chem on my MCAT. Do you think medical schools would use my performance on those 9 questions in place of a whole year's worth of organic chem class at Cornell? Uh no. ABSOLUTELY, take all of your basic prereqs (gen chem, intro bio, orgo, and physics) before applying. Some of the other fluff (stats, biochem, english, calc, etc.) can be taken later.</p>

<p>2) There is not as much correlation between the MCAT and your GPA as you think (another reason why one can't simply be substituted for the other). Obviously, better students tend to do better on the MCAT but there are MANY MANY MANY MANY examples of students with 3.7+ GPA's and low MCAT's and vice-versa. You only need to look at mdapplicants.com or studentdoctor.net to find these. A poor performance on the MCAT does not necessarily indicate you would do poorly in the corresponding class. </p>

<p>3) Self-study is to be used as a last resort, not as a good option. It is very tough to self-study on your own time. Even if your premed classes suck, it's still easier to self-study while taking them since there is at least some structure and some urgency (you must learn the material before the next midterm). Self-studying on your own is really not something I would advise, especially for orgo.</p>

9

<p>oh one more thing i would like to throw in. in your specific case MichEngGrad, if med schools see a person with a B.S. and M.S. who just up and decided to try his hand at the MCAT and applied to med school without bothering to take any of the classes that would at least show an interrest in making a career change, they would **** themselves and then reject him on the basis that he isnt serious about it and probably just had $180 bucks to blow and got lucky on the MCAT. If what sakky is saying was true then there wouldnt be all these 30+ and 40+ year old post-baccalaureate students running around here at columbia taking bio and orgo and other stuff when they can just "self-study" for the MCAT and go straight to med school, ********ting thier way through the courses the summer after getting accepted.</p>

10

<p>Thanks for the advice. I understand what Sakky was trying to say about not wasting money if I don't perform well. However, I feel if I take the prereq courses that I have missed I will have a better chance of performing well. Plus, like Shraf said, I don't want to come across that I'm just changing careers for the hell of it. This is absolutely not the case. In fact, I would like to spend time volunteering during the year I take my prereqs at a hospital. I have always wanted to go into medicine but did not feel I was committed enough to go through the schooling needed during my undergraduate years. However, by working in a field I don't truly enjoy and knowing I have always wanted to pursue medicine it has made me re-evaluate my life/situation and I am absolutely positive I am willing to put the time/commitment/money, etc... into pursuing this dream of mine. </p>

<p>However, after reading some of the stats Sakky put up in the premed advice thread about the Engineering grads from MIT, etc... I am a bit concerned. I used to think my 3.63 GPA was good but it appears it may not be good enough. I was never a great standardized test taker either as I scored 1130 in the SATs, 25 in the ACTs, and 1150 in the GRE (5 writing). However, I never attended any prep courses and just self-taught myself, so I will try a different route with the MCATs. My biggest weakness is my vocabulary in all of the tests, so that is one part of the test I will emphasize while studying.</p>

<p>A question I placed in the premed advice thread was will my 4.00 GPA for my MS be taken into consideration by the adcoms? If so will it factor into the pre-screening? It seems that the 3.63 undergrad GPA with an estimated 3.7 science GPA is almost mediocre at best for most premeds and they don't care about the difficulty of the curriculum. Also, will the grades I get on my prereqs help boost my undergrad GPA or is this a separate GPA?</p>

<p>Thanks for the advice, I just know I will be making a huge sacrifice to just leave my job, pay back a pro-rated amount of my graduate tuition back to work and have to pay for my prereqs and application costs. I am more than willing to make all those sacrifices if I have a legitimate chance of getting into med school, however if you guys think my situation leaves me with a minimal or small chance of getting into med school then I might have to re-evaluate this decision. </p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
The MCAT is not a substitute for grades for the same reason that SAT scores don't override low GPA's. Your grades indicate how well you can handle tough science classes within the context of a full course load. Your MCAT score is based on a small sample of questions. I had a whopping 9 questions on organic chem on my MCAT. Do you think medical schools would use my performance on those 9 questions in place of a whole year's worth of organic chem class at Cornell? Uh no. ABSOLUTELY, take all of your basic prereqs (gen chem, intro bio, orgo, and physics) before applying. Some of the other fluff (stats, biochem, english, calc, etc.) can be taken later.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Nobody is saying that the MCAT is a perfect substitute for grades. My primary concern is that the person should at least be able to get some sort of indication as to whether he ought to be able to spend more time continuing down this path or not.</p>

<p>Let me put it to you this way. Let's say the guy makes a bona-fide attempt to study for his MCAT, and gets a 15 (total). I think it's pretty safe to say that even with perfect grades, this guy isn't going to get into med-school. So then why waste more time pursuing something that isn't going to happen? At least you would know whether your chances are good or not. That's far better than going through all the steps, spending all that time and money, and only after all that, finding out that you don't get in. </p>

<p>
[quote]
There is not as much correlation between the MCAT and your GPA as you think (another reason why one can't simply be substituted for the other). Obviously, better students tend to do better on the MCAT but there are MANY MANY MANY MANY examples of students with 3.7+ GPA's and low MCAT's and vice-versa. You only need to look at mdapplicants.com or studentdoctor.net to find these. A poor performance on the MCAT does not necessarily indicate you would do poorly in the corresponding class.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, that has nothing to do with it. See above. The key is really to find out whether you ought to continue or whether you should abort early. Making the commitment to quit your job to take all these premed classes and do all this volunteer work is a huge commitment. So the key question is whether it's worth it. Hence, you need a signal that will tell you whether your chances of getting in are reasonable. If you bomb the MCAT, that's a good signal that you're probably not going to get in anywhere, so you can probably stop spending more time. However, if you do very well on the MCAT, then that's a good signal that you probably will get in somewhere.</p>

<p>Again, I am trying to reduce the risk factors. The biggest risk that I see is that the guy will take all of these classes, do all of these volunteer things, and only after all that, find out that he can't get in anywhere. Then you spent all your time for nothing. I think it's a fair way to reduce your risks by trying to obtain some signals as to just how reasonable your chances are before you plunge forward. </p>

<p>Think of it like starting a new business. You don't just start a new business willy-nilly, and start with full-blown manufacturing of goods from day one. You try to obtain some information about what your customers want and what the market will support. You make prototypes and you let customers use them and you gauge their reactions. With that information, you can decide whether you want to proceed with full-blown manufacturing or not. If things look good, you proceed. If things do not look promising, then you abort. Or think of it like being a football quarterback. If you see your receiver is wide open, then you throw him the ball. But if your receiver is tightly covered by 3 defenders, then you probably don't want to throw it to him. </p>

<p>The point is, you have to constantly gauge your decisions with the information you have at the time. If you don't have any information, then it probably behooves you to get some. The point is, your decision-making gets better as you have more information about your chances. </p>

<p>
[quote]
3) Self-study is to be used as a last resort, not as a good option. It is very tough to self-study on your own time. Even if your premed classes suck, it's still easier to self-study while taking them since there is at least some structure and some urgency (you must learn the material before the next midterm). Self-studying on your own is really not something I would advise, especially for orgo.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I wouldn't say it's tough at all to self-study on your own time. I agree you have to be motivated. But the truth is, if you're not motivated, you're probably not going to make it as a doctor anyway. </p>

<p>Look, the truth is, the vast majority of things we learn in life we have to learn by ourselves. There isn't always going to be a school or a class that will be available to teach us everybody we need to learn. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I dont know how u define "the stuff" exactly because what you learn in class is alot more than what is required for the MCAT.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But that's completely irrelevant. What you need to do well on the MCAT is obviously the stuff that is on the MCAT. While that sounds like a tautology, it actually contains a critical point, which is basically that if you do poorly on the MCAT, then no matter how much other knowledge you have, you won't get into med-school. Hence, the key is to at least be able to pull out a decent MCAT score. If you can't even do that, then there's really no point in spending any more time. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Orgo class was nothing like what you need for the orgo MCAT and being good at the MCAT has a correlation with the amount of practice you get from studying for exams and doing prob sets for the class where it isnt multiple choice and you need to come up with your own answer. As a result, you are better able to predict the answer to MCAT questions before looking at the answer chioces which makes you work more quickly and get more right.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh? You've managed to contradict yourself. You say that a lot of stuff in the OChem class you will not need for the MCAT, but then you argue that that extra material will be useful for the MCAT. So which is it? </p>

<p>Besides, look at it this way. Think about all that time you would have to spend learning all that "extra" Ochem stuff that is not on the MCAT. Now imagine taking that time, and instead doing a whole bunch of MCAT practice problems using those practice books from Kaplans, Princeton Review, etc. I think we can all agree that those practice books are going to be closer to what is on the MCAT than all that stuff in your OChem class. So which is a more efficient use of your time? </p>

<p>Kaplans and PR's entire business is derived from producing questions that somewhat replicate the MCAT. That's their job. If they didn't do that, they'd be out of business. However, your OChem prof has no obligation to teach you MCAT stuff. Your prof can and often does end up forcing you to spend time learning stuff that has nothing to do with the MCAT whatsoever. For the purposes of scoring well on the MCAT, which is better, studying your Prof's stuff, or studying those MCAT practice books? Be honest with yourself.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
oh one more thing i would like to throw in. in your specific case MichEngGrad, if med schools see a person with a B.S. and M.S. who just up and decided to try his hand at the MCAT and applied to med school without bothering to take any of the classes that would at least show an interrest in making a career change, they would **** themselves and then reject him on the basis that he isnt serious about it and probably just had $180 bucks to blow and got lucky on the MCAT.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So what if they reject you? You apply again the following year. With the exception of Harvard, no medical school that I am aware of has a limit to the number of times you apply.</p>

<p>What I am saying is this. It's not like MichEngGrad hasn't done ANY premed stuff. He has already done quite a bit - all the Physics, Calculus, and Basic Chem. So it's not he's trying to apply while lacking the entire premed class portfolio. If he does well on the MCAT, that at least proves he knows bio and OChem well enough to do well on the MCAT. So why not apply? The worst that can happen is that he won't get in. Big deal. He'll apply again the following year. But if he does get in, then that saves him a whole year.</p>

<p>What I am saying is this. If you have a competitive MCAT score, and your grades so far are good, then what exactly do you gain by not applying? Except for maybe some applications fees, which in the grand scheme of things is really inconsequential. Like I said, if you're making 6 figures as a doctor, who really cares about burning up some money on app fees? </p>

<p>Besides, by waiting, and especially by taking more premed classes, you're not guaranteed to become a better candidate. In fact, you might end up becoming a WORSE candidate. For example, let's say MichEngGrad takes the MCAT and scores very highly. I would then say that he should apply immediately, without taking those premed classes. You and norcalguy might say that he should wait and take those premed classes. Ok, but what if he does poorly in those premed classes? Could happen. Like norcalguy said, there is no perfect correlation between MCAT and grades. So by waiting out one application cycle and instead taking those premed classes and getting bad grades in them, he has now just made himself a WORSE candidate. It's better not to take a class at all then to take it and get a bad grade.</p>

<p>Again, I'll use a football analogy. Let's say you're a college football underclassman player and you have a superstar season. In fact, your season is so strong that you are projected to go in the 1st round of the NFL draft. Or you can stay in school and play another year. But if you do, you're not guaranteed to be able to improve your draft position. In fact, your draft position might get WORSE. You might have a bad season. You suffer a serious injury. That's actually happened to a bunch of players. They had a cracker-jack season, but elected to stay in school to play more college ball, but had a bad season, and watched their NFL draft position plummet. They would have been a lot better off just making the jump to the NFL immediately.</p>

13

<p>Also, a little FYI, I'm 22 years old, not like 30. I don't know if adcoms consider people over a certain age are too old or not, but I don't think it should be a factor for myself considering I will only be a could years older than the typical applicant.</p>

14

<p>Like I said, I think the best thing you can do is start prepping yourself for the MCAT. Like I said, if you are unable to learn things through self-study, you're going to run into problems later in your career. But if you really can't, then take the premed classes...but as an AUDITOR. That way, those classes can only help you, not hurt you. Then take the MCAT, see what score you get, and then determine whether your medical dreams are really viable or not. </p>

<p>My point is, I am trying to reduce your risk for you. The worst thing that can happen is that you spend all this time doing all these premed things, and only after all that, find out that you can't get in anywhere. If your chances are poor, you should know that as soon as possible so that you can make an informed decision about whether you still want to proceed or not. Like I said, if you end up getting a total 15 on the MCAT, you can basically close the shop down and cut your losses. That's a lot better than doing all these premed classes, doing all this volunteer work, and STILL ending up with a total 15 on your MCAT.</p>

<p>{Some might argue that by taking premed classes, you might have gotten a better MCAT score. To that, I would say that unless your prof is the greatest teacher since Horace Mann, your MCAT score that you get after you take the premed classes will probably not be substantially different than what you would get through a good-faith effort at self-study. So maybe with self-study, you get a total 15 MCAT, but by taking the greatest premed classes in the world, you get a 20. That's STILL not going to get you into med-school}. </p>

<p>If your MCAT score is good, then you can proceed. If your MCAT score is REALLY good, then you might think about applying straight away. It's like having a really good underclassman football season. For example, let's say that you self-study and score a perfect 45 on the MCAT. Very unlikely, but let's say it happens. If that's what happens, then I would say that you really have little to gain by waiting until after you take those premed courses before applying. With that 45, let's face it, whatever grades you get in those premed classes are more likely to worsen your candidacy than to strengthen it. Hence, if this were the case, I would say that it would be a definite no-brainer to apply immediately.</p>

15

<p>If I take the self-study route prior to taking the prereqs what kind of score should I be looking for? What if I score a 22? Obviously not going to get me into med school, however by taking the prereqs and going through a Kaplan course what is a realistic improvement that this could give me? Could it boost me up to a 27? A 32? A 35? Also, ultimately, what kind of score should I be striving for with a 3.63 undergraduate GPA, 3.67 Science GPA and a 4.00 graduate GPA?</p>

<p>Thanks again, I appreciate the advice.</p>

16

<p>Anything below a 25, and I would say that you are probably not in good shape and may need to reconsider. Get anything above a 35, or even a 30, and you are probably a viable candidate to apply immediately. </p>

<p>While I think Kaplan courses are good, I don't think they are good enough to boost you by 10 points. I think even 5 points is optimistic. </p>

<p>I would reiterate, my point is not to frighten you, or to</p>

17

<p>This is so strange. why would you want to become a doctor if you already had a master degree in electrical engineering? I thought the salary for electrical engineers is pretty good. Is it hard for Electrical Engineers to find a job nowadays or what?</p>

18

<p>It has nothing to do with money. I have wanted to go into medicine but when I was younger I was not sure I was committed to the schooling. Therefore if I'm not sure, I shouldn't go through with it. So I went with the route that would give me a good "plan B" which I happened to be good at. Like you said I can make a living with no problem by being an Electrical Engineer. However, my heart is in medicine, and now after working for a couple years, the desire to go back has been with me so long that now I know I can and will be willing to make the comittment required to go through medical school.</p>

19

<p>Sakky, I know your intentions. There is a reason I came to these forums and specifically after reading some of your posts wanted your opinion. I have only looked through the admissions process for about a month now. You and other posters know more than I do. That is why I asked for your opinion on my situation and I appreciate the feedback and I can handle any criticism or reality that may come along with that.</p>

<p>I want to make an educated decision and not a foolish one. If the chances are slim that I can get into med school, which seems to be difficult to determine before being able to gauge what I will score on the MCAT, then it would probably be best not to quit my job and waste the time and money.</p>

<p>How about the practice tests that I can take online or through Kaplan/PR, etc...? Would that give me a realistic idea of how I would score on the MCAT? Or would it be best to take the real thing first? The real problem is that I will not have the time until May to start any preperation for the MCAT because I work 40 hours a week and I'm taking my final 12 credits for my Masters.</p>

<p>One more question, you seem to stress the importance in the MCAT. In your opinion is it more important than my GPA or would you say they are worth about the same? One question that I can't seem to get answered is how competetive is my GPA (3.63, ~3.7 science)? What about my 4.00 through my Masters, is this even taken into consideration during the application process?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

20

<p>
[quote]
I wouldn't say it's tough at all to self-study on your own time. I agree you have to be motivated. But the truth is, if you're not motivated, you're probably not going to make it as a doctor anyway.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well some people just require structure to motivate them i.e. the structure of a class, even for MCATs</p>

<p>
[quote]
Oh? You've managed to contradict yourself. You say that a lot of stuff in the OChem class you will not need for the MCAT, but then you argue that that extra material will be useful for the MCAT. So which is it?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Look at what i said and the context more carefully. The first one was meant to say that its hard to tell whether you know orgo from a few multiple choice questions on a standardized test and the class is more relevant for that since it covers alot more material. The second one was meant to say that orgo has a (much) broader scope than the MCAT, I clearly was not saying that the MCAT orgo is different than what you will learn in class but only a small fraction of it. I also said that the PRACTICE you get from solving problems that are free response in orgo class help you think about problems on the MCAT. The first part of my statement referred to the material with respect to depth and the way med schools might look at a good performance in each and the second was comparing how the class will help u on the mcat. </p>

<p>MichEngGrad, your undergrad GPA is average and your Masters GPA will be taken into account to a lesser extent. At least you have a chance to raise it even more when taking the prereqs....you really shouldnt look at them as something that must end in horrible failure and Bs and Cs, there are people who do well in those classes, y do people automatically think thats not gonna be them. The whole applying before taking bio and orgo thing is not very smart because if you do well on them that can only help u. For example I got an A- and B+ in orgo and an A in first semester of Bio.....why wouldnt I want med schools to see such grades and why would u assume you wont do well?</p>