<p>Streetlight, I agree with most of your points and I believe Sakky's analysis of grade deflation/hard majors vs. acceptance rates is far too simple and superficial. However, I don't agree that MIT has a lower acceptance rate than expected because their students just decided to apply to med school spontaneously. MCATs take months to study for. Application fees are over $100 for each med school. The application process is long and arduous. You don't go through all that ***** just to see if you can get in or not.</p>
<p>One can argue about whether my analysis of grade deflation of hard majors vs. acceptance rates is simple and superficial or not. But at the end of the day, there is still the issue of having to explain the 77% MIT premed acceptance rate, as compared to that at peer schools like HYPS, which routinely hover around the 90+% range. There is also still the issue of explaining why is is that MIT premeds who are successfully admitted actually have a HIGHER gpa than that of successful premeds nationwide (a 3.77/4.0 vs. something like a 3.5/4.0), when you would expect the exact opposite to be true (MIT is a difficult school, so med-schools should be admitting more MIT students who have lower-than-average gpa's to compensate for the difficulty). </p>
<p>Nor is this just a one-off. This has been consistent for years. MIT has, in general, has consistently had a lower premed success rate than do HYPS. And succesful MIT premeds have had gpa's that are consistently equal to or higher than that of succesful premeds nationwide. So you can talk about how the analysis is too simplistic and whatnot. But at the end of the day, the data still begs an explanation. If you don't like my explanation of the data, fine, then what's your explanation of the data?</p>
<p>However, I do agree with you (and disagree with streetlight) that MIT students don't have a lower acceptance rate simply because their students just decide to apply to med-school for the heck of it. It's not only for the reasons that you stated, of which I agree, that the app process is a long and grueling one and tends to eliminate those students who aren't serious. But you can also think of it this way. If you say that lots of MIT students are applying for the heck of it (and not getting in), then why isn't the same thing happening at HYPS? For example, you might try to argue that the 23% of MIT premeds who don't get in anywhere must contain a lot of unserious premeds who are just applying for the heck of it. But then why doesn't Harvard also have 23% of its premeds just applying for the heck of it (and not getting in)? Why doesn't Stanford? The question is then, if you believe the issue is that of not serious premeds applying for the heck of it, then of the 5 elite peer schools (HYPSM), why is it MIT that seems to have the biggest problem with students applying just for the heck of it, and not getting in? </p>
<p>I believe I've already had this "discussion" with you so I won't go into it. I will leave with just one post stating my feelings:</p>
<p>1) Your first problem is that your argument essentially rests on a 4-5 schools: namely, MIT vs. Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Princeton. You make several broad generalizations based on marginal statistics from just those programs.</p>
<p>2) I agree with you that MIT is probably not as good as Stanford or Princeton for premed. What I do not agree with you on is that grade deflation has something to do with it. Don't get me wrong, that could every well be the reason but I have yet to see you make a convincing argument for it. You assume that applicants from MIT, Stanford, and Princeton are all equal except their GPA which leads you to make the conclusion that medical schools do not account for grade deflation. Without thoroughly examining the quality of EC's, essays, and interviews from students from those schools, how can you make such an assumption? Have you considered the fact that Princeton is a notoriously undergrad-oriented school that will do everything in its power to ensure the success of its undergrads? Again, that would only prove that Princeton is a better premed school than MIT (which it probably is) but shows that attention to undergrads rather than lower grades is the achille's heel of MIT. That would lead to the conclusion that one should go to a school that is more undergrad oriented (perhaps a LAC) rather than simply one that passes out the highest grades. I don't know if this is the right reason either but just showing that there could be a number of reasons explaining MIT's statistics.</p>
<p>3) I do not know whether you are right or not Sakky. You could very well be right. But without analyzing more schools, deeper statistical trends, and applicant profiles more thoroughly, I don't see how you can make the generalizations that you usually make. I never said you were wrong, I simply want you to make a more convincing argument.</p>
<p>Since you know this stuff so well, a question - my daughter wants to major in English (since its her favourite subject and gets As) while I (her Dad) want her to major in Biology (to be safe). She's on track to major in either but a double major, while doable, might pull down her GPA as labs (which she considers unnecessary for med school) take up a lot of time. If she majors in English, she will take a couple of courses in addition to the basic pre-med requirement i.e. Biochem and Cell bio. Also, will be taking a course each in Psychology, Sociology, Ethics etc. to get a "well rounded education." </p>
<p>What do you guys think? Will a single major in English be viewed Ok with the med school adcoms?</p>
<p>My quagmire:</p>
<h2>A single major in English would be just as good if not better than Biology. I am right now a senior in high school, and it pains me to see you forcing your daughter into a certain field of study, ultimately for all we know she can fail out of biology because it is not her favorite field of study. Also, if she is not much interested in biology or biological sciences and such, are you sure she is interested in Medicine as a whole? Is she just taking this premed track to conciliate her parents? </h2>
<p>Now I saw this debate and my eyes lit up! haha, This is very similar to my own problem. I do not care much for what I study, in the fact that I am interested in Biology and will be more than happy to pursue a Bio-neuroscience BS degree at my institution (University of Rochester). Then, after reflecting back upon my high school activites, education, and hobbies/interests and such, I also understand that I like technology, and Biomedical Engineering is a plausible major as well. Either way, I am very dedicated in gaining acceptance to Medical School, and working with the clinical facet of medicine. Now for my problem: As I have stated, I would probably enjoy pursueing both degrees, as they are both interesting, but I would choose Biology based upon the fact that I may have a better chance of admittance to Medical School due to the possibility of myself achieving a higher GPA and the on the whole everything being less rigorous. Therefore Biology would be slightly preferred over BME, but then the main problem that arose was the fact that after graduating from a BS in Biology and assuming that the competition of medical school catches up with me, my career options / future with biology would be very bleary. Now on the otherhand, a BME major , especially after getting his/her masters or PhD has a plethora of options available to him, moreso than biology..so my simple request is that you guys debate -this- one haha and help me figure out what I should do! Thanks in advance,</p>
<p>Timur.</p>
<p>Norcalguy, it's not just 4 or 5 schools. The same sort of analysis would be reached if we were talking about Caltech, the Ivies, the LAC's, Duke, Chicago, Berkeley or whatever. I don't want to repost all my old posts, I'm sure you can go back and search through them all either here or on the old CC site. The basic point is, holding the quality of the students constant, there seems to be a strong correlation between a school that is grade inflated and the success of its students in getting into med-school. I have already demonstrated that MIT premeds do not get into med-school at the same rate as do premeds from HYPS. The same thing is true when you look at premeds from Caltech. Berkeley students do not get in at the same rate as students at equivalent schools. And so forth and so on. </p>
<p>And that calls the response in your second paragraph into question. You might say that EC's and essays and all that stuff might in fact be the explanatory factor. But again, why is it that schools that we know to have grade deflation (like MIT, Caltech, Berkeley, Michigan, Cornell, etc.) all 'coincidentally' seem to have low premed success rates, relative to peer schools? Is it always because the students at MIT AND Caltech AND Berkeley AND Michigan, etc. etc. all have bad EC's and essays and all that stuff? If so, I think you're asking me to believe in one hell of a coincidence. MIT, Berkeley, Michigan, Chicago, Cornell, etc. - these are all very different schools with very different student bodies and very different student tastes. The one general theme that these schools share is grade deflation, relative to their peers. So you might be able to explain away the MIT data by saying it has something to do with EC's and other stuff. You might be able to explain away the Caltech data with the same argument. But now you're basically trying to explain away the data from all the other schools as well. </p>
<p>The bottom line is this. There are schools out there that are known for difficult grading. There are other schools that are known for easier grading. The difficult-grading schools tend to have lower acceptance rates to med-school than peer schools that grade easier. I would therefore argue that grades have something to do with it. If you want to assert that it is something else that is happening, like essays, fine, but then you have little choice but to be asserting that MIT students, Caltech students, Chicago students, Berkeley students, etc. etc. ALL write bad essays. Or ALL have bad recs'. Or whatever. I think that that's a far stronger and far less sustainable assertion than anything I have made.</p>
<p>However, even if you really are correct, then that still serves to validate my basic point. So let's say that you are right and the grade deflation really has nothing to do with it. Yet the fact is, it doesn't matter, because at the end of the day, the grade-deflated schools still consistently send a lower percentage of students into med-school than do the grade-inflated schools. Maybe the grade-deflation doesn't have anything to do with it. Maybe it really does have to do with, as you say, EC's or essays, or whatever it is. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, something is happening to cause those grade-deflated schools to have a lower success rate of getting premeds into med-school. I assert that it is the grade deflation. You may assert that it is something else that these grade deflated schools have, but not the grade deflation itself. But whatever it is, it's still something. We can quibble all day and all night about what that something is. But the basic point still stands - if you want to maximize your chances of going to med-school, you should not go to a grade-deflated school.</p>
<p>Timur,</p>
<p>How exactly did you deduce that my daughter does not want to become a doctor? Actually, she likes Bio and English but double majoring is going to be difficult, hence the question as to which would be a better major.</p>
<p>Sakky - any comments?</p>
<p>Medhope:</p>
<p>Your daughter should major in something she enjoys and will result in the highest GPA. Biology majors do not have better acceptance rates than any other major. (In fact, they have a slightly lower acceptance rate.) Here's something else to mull over...it used to be that the most common major for Harvard med school matriculants was English. I don't know if this is still true, though. </p>
<p>I like to think of it this way; Imagine you are on the admissions committee of your favorite med school. You see HUNDREDS of biology majors....year after year....again and again. They all have high GPAs, extra curriculars and good MCAT scores. Now, think of what type of student is going to stand out or has a better chance at making a lasting impression? Right. Probably not all those Biology students.</p>
<p>Hope this helps.</p>
<p>Khan-Tim:</p>
<p>If you can pull the grades in an engineering program I think it is in your best interest to do so. This is mainly for the reason you mentioned... job potential in the event that you are in the 50% who don't get in to med school. </p>
<p>Besides, if we pretend that your engineering GPA is low (<3.0) you could reapply after boosting your application with work experience, high grades in a graduate program, better MCAT scores, etc.</p>
<p>Lots of schools claim that BMEs have higher MCATs and better acceptance rates than other majors. Unfortunately, I can't find any real proof of this. </p>
<p>One more thing. Since you are in high school still, look into guaranteed acceptance programs. Several med schools will guarantee a spot for you after you finish your BS. Actually, this might be good advice for Medhope's daughter, too!</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>Thanks Hoberto for your prompt response. Do you mean BS/MD programs? I'm passed that unfortunatley as I had my eyes set on an a college and did not really apply to any BS/MD programs. Do you know of any other way to apply to medical school or have assurance maybe half-way through college? Gah! I wish this decision could somehow be simplified, I know I will like both majors, but the problem is just that: Possibly the Med schools that I end up applying to will -not- like a degree in engineering, and they will not weight up the lower gpa that I will achieve.. and its not like I am SET on engineering, it is just as appealing as BIO. The main problem here is the future, I guess I will have to grab one major, make a decisive choice, and run with it as hard and fast as possible :P</p>
<p>--
medhopeful: Sorry, I never "deduced" that your daughter doesn't want to become a doctor, if you look at my post it was an interrogative statement. My comment was in that tone because of the fact that you said the following: -
[quote]
my daughter wants to major in English (since its her favourite subject and gets As) while I (her Dad) want her to major in Biology (to be safe).
[/quote]
From that quotation, it seemed like You (her dad) were encroaching a little bit, trying to get her to major in biology while she wanted to major in English. - But let me rephrase my answer - No, unless she feels this absolute urge to take biology (and from what it seems she would much rather choose English), there is no reason to choose Bio as a major, and even double major. An English applicant is just as good as any Biology applicant.</p>
<p>Hoberto, Thanks. With fingers and toes crossed, English it is.</p>
<p>I was thinking of programs like the one offered by MCO in Toledo, Ohio.
Here's a link that covers the BioE option and has a link to the MEDstart program. Perfect if you are an Ohio resident. There are similar programs around the country, though. </p>
<p>Psedrish and others, what are your thoughts for my dilemma?</p>
<p>Thanks for all the thoughtful posts here. My daughter has narrowed her choice to Combined BioMed Engg/MD at George Washington University and Combined BA/MD program at UConn (4years+4years). There is no MCAT at either place. She was leaning toward the GW program until she found out that Engg/Premed is quite hard, in general though as I understand it, premed courses are integrated . Also, GW engineering is not MIT so the workload might not be that difficult.UConn is four years undergrad and should give her plenty of time to complete premed requirements without a great deal of difficulty. </p>
<p>She has outstanding interpersonal skills and so that is a non issue. She might want to try MCAT to see if she can apply to better med schools later. She has no serious interest in research. </p>
<p>Any thoughts? Also, as medicine is becoming more technology driven, will a biomed degree make a difference in future years? Will it in any way increase her chances of getting in to specialty residencies such as radiology?</p>
<p>Welcome your thoughts! Thanks.</p>
<p>You do have to take the MCAT at UCONN in the combined program. You only need to get a 28 though. Did she get into these programs, or does she want to apply to them? Getting into these programs is really hard if she hasn't applied yet. For UCONN they take about 10 people out of 300 or more applicants. Biomed Eng might help her get into med school, but it won't make all that much of a difference for residency unless she is doing some heavy duty research during med school. Residency is determined by your USMLE scores, and your recommendations from med school.</p>
<p>She has gotten in to both and we do not have the details for the UConn yet. You may be right about the MCATs. Another way to look at it is that she might have options with BioMed just in case she becomes tired of medicine.</p>
<p>Last I checked when I applied for UCONN it said right on the app that you have to take the MCAT and get a 28 minimum with not section under 7 points. If she is in a combined program she shouldn't worry about falling back on another career. If she isn't sure about medicine its probably best not to pursue it, or hold it off until she is 100% sure.</p>
<p>im bout to transfer to 4 yr university as an electrical engineering major, but decided also to consider biomedical engineering, since we both probably have a good aptitude for problem solvin, and if we like biology and chem. it shud all work out.</p>
<p>jus think bout the alternative, graduate as ME or EE $50k yrly, get laid off when we're 45 cuz medical insurance premiums r too much and get our jobs outsourced to india, then work in retail at ur local Fry's electronics or compusa. when iw as 18 i worked as a car salesman w/guy who used to be a computer engineer and made 120K in the dot com days. aint gonna happen again in our lifetimes, ever. </p>
<p>The United States Department of Labor reports that the number of biomedical engineering jobs will increase by 31.4 percent through 2010---double the rate for all other jobs combined.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bmes.org/careers.asp#future%5B/url%5D">http://www.bmes.org/careers.asp#future</a></p>
<p>i'm switchin to biomed engineering cuz the job demands r so high, and i get to put my engineering skills to good use, plus i cant see myself analyzin resistors & circuits everyday, i kinda like bio too. also it keeps medschool open as an option as well. </p>
<p>it shud not be too much of a change for u if u decide to switch to biomed engineering, cuz u'll jus take more chem ochem n bio , u wont have wasted ne of ur time at this point, cuz all the calculus n physics u ve taken are needed for med school.</p>