What do you think about an engineering major retaking Calc 1, either after finishing the semester and doing badly, or after realizing that it’s not going well, and dropping the course mid-semester?
I have grave concerns about a person’s aptitude for engineering, if they need to do this. But I wonder if I’m being too harsh. In my view, Calc 1 is the first of many hard courses, along the same conceptual lines, that will be required in mechanical engineering. If a person is not able to succeed and prosper in that curriculum, to reasonably finish the degree in 8 or 10 full-time semesters, they are probably in the wrong major. They need to find something they can succeed with more naturally, where their own personal combination of aptitude and effort is enough to get the job done, on schedule, with Bs and Cs at least.
I would be more inclined to support a re-take if it were an odd, one-off, non-central requirement that the kid just had to get through, in order to proceed with a major that they were otherwise well suited for. For example, if an engineering major had to take two semesters of German, and was ill-suited to it, I could see throwing more time and money at it. Don’t let the whole degree come to a screeching halt over something non-central. I’d feel the same if a Marketing major had to get through one semester of Baby Calc, or if a Psych major struggled with statistics. But I’m concerned that an aspiring mechanical engineer had better be able to succeed with Calc 1 in real time, or is probably in the wrong major, and the family should face facts before too much time and money are thrown at a pursuit that ultimately is unlikely to lead to a degree (or a marketable GPA and resume in the field).
Depends, if they were trying and just couldn’t do it, they probably shouldn’t do engineering. If they weren’t trying and weren’t serious about it, but they’re going to be serious about it next semester, then take it as a lesson learned.
Yes, that’s understood, which is why 8-10 semesters is seen as an acceptable ballpark. But the larger (and more pressing) concern is whether this signals a fundamental mismatch between the person and the program. If you start re-taking Calc 1, are you going to retake Calc 2? Will you take Differential Equations three times? How long are you stalled on the meat of a largely sequential program? At what point are you effectively bogging yourself down in a nine year full time bachelor’s degree? And how unappealing will your resume and transcript be to employers, if this is what it takes to get you through the program? At what point do you stop the bleeding, and find another major that you can do in real time?
The engineering programs are very structured and sequential. You really can’t check off many of the required courses until you have Calc 1 out of the way, and then Calc 2 and Physics 1 out of the way. I guess if the person retakes Calc 1, and there’s not much else on the engineering list available to be taken that semester, they could fill their plate with four introductory courses from other majors, to see how they might like other possible majors. While that might seem like a wasted semester, it could be better, in the long run, than persisting with a pattern of retakes and a low GPA (or few credits to show for each semester).
The student has commented – “but I’ve never had calculus. Even if I do have to retake Calc 1, I would expect Calc 2 to go better”. It had seemed to me that somebody who did well in Precalc (as this student did) is qualified for Calc 1, and Calc 2 will only be harder. I thought each semester, progressing upward through math, there would be more people who would meet their Waterloo, just like each successive round of high jumpers when they raise the bar at a track meet. What do those with more experience in these fields think about that?
This person may have a poor teacher or this student may have a calc class that is taught by someone with a foreign accent and the student is having trouble understanding what the teacher is saying. THere are many reasons for doing poorly in a calc class and they don’t all have to do with aptitude.
I understand the analogy, but I don’t think it’s applicable. It just isn’t really true that Calc 2 is harder than Calc 1 or Calc 3 harder than Calc 2. They’re “higher level,” they build on each other, but one isn’t really harder than the other based on what you go in knowing and what you’re expected to learn in it. Though for someone who isn’t cut out, to pass Calc 1 until their 2nd attempt may not be cut out to pass Calc 2 until their 2nd attempt, but given the same person, same effort, if someone passes Calc 1 they should be able to pass Calc 2 as well.
^^Agree, there are pieces of the math sequence that some kids find easier and some harder. I have a kid finishing sophomore year in engineering with pretty much all As in engineering classes but he struggled mightily to hit a required B in Calc II in the math sequence and he only did it because of hours and hours of studying and help. So “no” I absolutely don’t believe that struggling in math means you are going to struggle in engineering. S3 also reports that Multivariable is easy for him. But engineering classes in general are no piece of cake so if a student is struggling it might give them pause to consider if they have the fortitude to muster on. Also, some kids are exposed to Calculus in high school so some of Calc I ends up being a refresher. But other freshman engineering students may be taking Calc I for the first time and the OP didn’t say whether this was a student that dropped into Calc I without any high school exposure.
My nephew didn’t do well in Calc I, but was allowed to go on to Calc 2 to keep his sequence. He’s going to retake calc 1 for grade replacement, but I think he should have just repeated I and save 2 for summer school. I’m not supposed to know about it (my sister told my mother, who does not keep secrets) so I can’t say anything.
I don’t think his days as an engineer are over, but he needs to get on this math. He did take it seriously, but I think he needs more help either from a TA or tutor or something. My daughter did very well (thus the reason my sister didn’t mention nephew’s grade to me) but she work VERY hard and if she didn’t understand something she went back and learned it, taught it, wrote it out on the white board. Nephew wasn’t so dedicated.
There are so many variables which go into why a kid can’t do well taking Calc 1 and may need to repeat.
HS exposure, there are tremendous differences in quality even within a HS AP calc program
Many kids do not have a clue how much at home prep is needed to take calc and do well, they rely on their HS study methods which are not even close in regards to time spent working problem sets
Realizing one is over ones head and dropping a course is better than getting a poor grade
Working 1 on 1 with an engineering based calc tutor was the best money we ever spent for my D when she was a freshman, he ingrained in her how much time was needed to fully grasp the material.
Many engineers flourish in their engineering courses but stink in calculus, by no means is it a reflection on their aptitude nor an indication they should switch fields.
The prerequisite for calculus 1 is algebra, geometry, and trigonometry – normal level high school math. However, the quality of such courses can vary considerably across high schools.
This transition from high school to college can be a generalized problem for many students. College (any college, in any major) requires more self motivation and time management than high school, where there is more hand holding and progress monitoring. Students who are not strong in these areas may face a trial by fire in their first semester of college. Some manage to adapt college study skills, but some of them do poorly in their first semester courses before they do so, and others either do not adapt or do poorly enough to flunk out.
Also, many college courses cover material more quickly than many high school AP courses (including calculus AB). So a student who does fine in high school AP courses may be overconfident about being able to handle college level material, only to find that college courses are harder than high school AP courses due to the faster pace.
When I taught calculus it seemed to me that the largest single factor in student failure was poor algebra skills. If you were able to look at this student’s calculus exams to see where he is going wrong, you might be able to evaluate this. Do not take the success in Precalculus as an indicator of anything. Has he taken any physics yet?
My experience was identical, sylvan8798. The kids who struggled were the ones with the weak algebra skills.
And, on the flip side, I’ve seen a number of kids do exceptionally well in Calc I in college, simply because of some high school exposure. Then they hit Calc II and the reality hits.
OP, I’ve got to ask: what’s your relation to the student in question?
Calculus also requires a different way of looking at the world. The first time I took it I was 16 and in high school. I did very well, but I always felt like I barely got it and I totally flubbed the AP exam. I went in expecting a 4 or 5 and came out with a 2. I didn’t take any math for three years. Took calculus again in college and it was a breeze. I took a self-paced version where I didn’t go to class at all. I just went to math-lab when I had questions. I remember walking out of the final before the half way mark wondering what I had missed when the entire rest of the class was scribbling away. I think my brain was just ready for calc at 19 in a way it wasn’t at 16.
My son told me a month or so ago that he was having coffee with one of his engineering class profs and complaining about how stinking hard the math sequence has been for him when all the other classes come relatively easily. The prof told him basically to suck it up, get it done and then just forget the pain because he could use a calculator in the real world to solve the same problems he was required to do “long hand.” He told him it’s a rite of passage. I hate getting those complaint phone calls and will also be glad when S3 is done with the “stinking” math sequence.
Almost every engineering student I’ve known had to repeat at least one of the math courses along the way. This is so common that I’m surprised to see the question being asked.
Apropos of #15, and other comments here, maybe it’s more like organic chemistry to the aspiring doctor – a hurdle you have to get over, but not something you’re going to sit and use in your daily life as a doctor, if you manage to get through the program and into the profession.
I absolutely do not think that doing poorly/having to retake Calc 1 is an automatic indication that a student is not cut out for engineering. My DS had Calc AB and BC in HS, and still struggled his first semester in college Calc 2 (which was essentially a repeat of his HS Calc BC), even though he’d seen all the material before. When we talked about what had made it difficult, he said the pace was so much faster, and the tests were often nothing like the homework … so the fact that he was doing well on the HW’s with no problem was not a good indicator that he was ready for the tests. That in and of itself is a huge difference between HS and college, and requires a completely different way of studying – don’t just be prepared to regurgitate information in the same way you’ve been doing it … be prepared to apply it to something totally new. Also, tests were multiple choice … which meant no partial credit whatsoever. And whereas in HS homework was a significant balancing factor to his grade, in college, it is not … if you tank a test, you’re in a deep hole. Add to that the overall adjustment to college, which is not just about learning to study more/differently, but also to create structure to your own life. This goes beyond just “time management” – my DS had alot of activities in HS and he managed his time fine and got all his stuff done and did well in school. But he was doing all of that within the externally imposed structure of the rhythms of a family and the school day. College takes all of that external structure away all at once. So, some floundering with figuring that out is not unusual, and very often that plus the fact that they need to be studying more than they are (but don’t realize it because they’re doing fine on the HW’s) predictably results in less than stellar performance in the challenging classes like Calc.
fieldsports I totally agree it is akin to organic chem for pre-med in terms of a hurdle and rite of passage. Who doesn’t know people who just really disliked and struggled with organic chemistry but who had a fairly easy time of it in all other classes. My entire Christmas dinner consisted of all of the long-time engineers in my family regaling math nightmares. Interestingly most of the MEs and CEs I know really liked multivariable. I tend to think, as a true humanities -type observer, that multivariable aligns with the brains that engineers have better than the other classes in the math sequence.