<p>Hello, everyone! I am an aspiring engineering student and would like to know if Engineering School is really as hard as people make it seem. If I am not mistaken, first year engineering courses are designed to weed-out uncommitted students. Should I be worried? I have known that I wanted to be an engineer for as long as I could remember. I believe that I have the intellect to pursue a career in engineering but am worried that I won't be able to survive the first year. Tips and responses are greatly appreciated. </p>
<p>Yes it is difficult, but obviously many students make it through undergrad and grad programs. The only way to know whether or not you can handle it is to try. If it is indeed something you’ve always wanted to do, then go for it. Join study groups. Get tutoring when needed. Make sure that you room with someone who also has a demanding workload so that you aren’t trying to study while the roommate is enjoying television or video games or the like. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>They are not so much designed to weed out uncommitted students, but the fact that they are part of sequences of prerequisites means that they need to have good enough coverage to ensure that a student who does well in them can apply the material in the following courses. I.e. they cannot be “watered down” too much to accommodate weaker or uncommitted students.</p>
<p>As a high school student, consider how well you do in math and physics courses (and math parts of standardized testing), and how much you like them. First year engineering curricula typically start with math (calculus, or more advanced math if you have advanced placement), physics (calculus based) and (usually, depending on major) chemistry, as well as introductory engineering courses (often including computer science or computing for engineering).</p>
<p>I think many engineering students will have already taken calculus, and probably AP physics and/or AP chemistry. I’m wondering if the difficulty tends to ramp up after those intro classes, or do students who can handle this level of work generally find the rest not much more difficult to handle?</p>
<p>Intellectually, one has to remember enough of the previous courses as needed for the more advanced courses. The students who forget everything the day after the final are likely to struggle in the following courses.</p>
<p>A different angle is workload. Engineering curricula tend to have more labs and projects than many other majors’ curricula, so the workload is often higher, even if the intellectual difficulty is similar. This may be noticeable more by first year students who are also transitioning from high school (with much more hand-holding) to college (where students need to have good self-motivation and time-management).</p>
<p>Any tips for an about to be senior in high school? My classes for next year are AP Calculus, AP Chemistry, AP Physics C, AP Psychology, Drafting 2, U.S. Government and Economics Honors, and English 4 Honors. I also actively participate in robotics competitions to practice cooperating with others to achieve a solitary goal. </p>
<p>Dann357: Your senior year will prepare you for college, so use it well. Develop good study habits (and do the homework!), which you intend to carry into college. If you do well in those APs, you should be in good shape. Good luck!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Grades are usually curved a little higher as you go up in “level.” So the prerequisite courses like Calc, Chemistry, Physics will assign an average grade of B- (or C+ if it’s really brutal). Major courses, will usually assign an average grade of B, and electives will usually assign an average grade of B+. Presumably you’re more interested in your electives than your major classes, and your major classes more than your prerequisites though as well. Additionally, more advanced doesn’t always mean harder. I thought junior/senior level Databases was easier than freshman level Organic Chemistry. </p>
<p>Just seconding ucbalumnus’ points. I agree completely.</p>
<p>Mathyone, many of my classmates did not take AP Calc AB or BC or AP Physics C. Some schools don’t have the resources to do so. Introductory engineering college classes are designed to teach basic principals of science and math to those who need it. The difficulty of classes does somewhat change sporadically as you go through college, some may be easy and some may be very challenging. The thing is, as you go through college, you get better at dealing with challenging classes (or at least, you should).</p>
<p>In regards to Vladenschlutte’s comment, I personally don’t find those averages believable, or they reflect dramatic grade inflation that is hardly laudable. All of my engineering classes curve the average to a C, and base A’s and B’s based on standard deviations or natural gaps in the grade distribution. My school also prides itself on its lack of grade inflation, so your mileage will vary. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>So what you’re saying is that 45% or so of people fail all of your engineering classes?</p>
<p>If these programs are ABET-accredited, isn’t there any oversight or requirements for grading policy? What’s the point of certification if a B+ in one program is just a C in another? And more importantly, if passing in one program is failing in another?</p>
<p>
Because of the scores and GPA required to get accepted as an engineering student, just about everyone in the program has the intellect to succeed. The problem lies elsewhere. Some may have put down engineering after being encouraged by others to enter a promising field, then discover as they learn more about it that it really isn’t right for them. But more often I think students don’t have the willingness to put in the time it will take to get thru the program. A lot drop out in the first year because they get a sense of how much work is involved, and realize it will continue for 4 years.</p>
<p>Many good students find that it takes 6-10 hours per week outside of class for each math, science, or engineering class. They look around and see lots of their friend in other majors that don’t have near the same workload. That doesn’t mean college is nothing but drudgery. A few years from now when you’re in the workforce you’ll be working 40+ hours a week, yet the fun won’t be over. You just need to pick your times – then, and now. </p>
<p>addendum – I thought I should add something on what you should be doing once you enter college.</p>
<p>A book I highly recommend is “What Smart Students Know” that lays out study skills for different subjects. You can look around once you are in college and see if they have a Study Center that can help you improve. One of the strongest findings in research on learning is the importance of frequent testing. See, for example, the NY Times article <a href=“Frequent Tests Can Enhance College Learning, Study Finds - The New York Times”>http://■■■■■■■.com/mw3a4jq</a> Many students prefer to study by reviewing the material, confusing familiarity with recall. It all seems to be there as they read the chapter or their notes, but on the test they find they can’t bring back what they felt so confident they knew. See [Why</a> Students Think They Understand—When They Don’t](<a href=“http://www.aft.org/newspubs/periodicals/ae/winter0304/willingham.cfm]Why”>Ask the Cognitive Scientist: Why Students Think They Understand—When They Don't) for an explanation of why this happens. For most of you classes you can buy problem-solver books such as “The Calculus Problem Solver”. During those 6-10 hours per week studying for each class you do extra problems from the book until you are consistently getting them right. This is self-testing, right in line with the research, and is why people are often advised to work extra problems to get better. Another tip is at [The</a> Art of Doing Well in Technical Courses](<a href=“How to Ace Calculus: The Art of Doing Well in Technical Courses - Cal Newport”>How to Ace Calculus: The Art of Doing Well in Technical Courses - Cal Newport) And once you know the material you need to have a regular practice schedule so you don’t forget it. Flip back and solve a few old problems each week. See [Practice</a> Makes Perfect—but Only If You Practice Beyond the Point of Perfection](<a href=“http://www.aft.org/newspubs/periodicals/ae/spring2004/willingham.cfm]Practice”>Ask the Cognitive Scientist: Practice Makes Perfect—But Only If You Practice beyond the Point of Perfection) for the explanation why.</p>
<p>There is one more thing you need to do. Get involved in a student engineering project such as a robotics competition. One benefit is networking. You’ll be with the students most interested in engineering and have a chance to learn from their examples, as well as hear of openings and opportunities they happen to learn about. You need the knowledge you learn in class, but companies aren’t going to hire you to sit and take exams. They want you to apply what you’ve learned, and student projects are a chance to build that skill. This is especially important in landing that first internship. Given 2 candidates with similar GPAs the one that has taken part in actually applying it will have a big leg up.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>ABET accreditation is a comprehensive process; the goal being to ensure consistency and competency among schools without dictating program structure… The process is broken into three primary parts: 1) school fills out a self-study, 2) ABET reviews the study and follows up with on-site verification of study, and 3) school either becomes accredited or has a small window of time in which to correct deficiencies in order to become accredited.</p>
<p>The exact details of what information are considered in the accreditation process are nebulous at best. Schools “tell it how it is” and ABET decides whether or not they are good enough to be accredited. However, to answer your question, yes, ABET does consider relative strength of curriculum/program and tries to maintain consistency among schools… especially with regards to grading policies. That doesn’t mean that exact correlation exists between schools, but it does ensure general consistency.</p>
<p>[ABET</a> self-study template](<a href=“http://www.abet.org/uploadedFiles/Accreditation/Accreditation_Process/Accreditation_Documents/Current/eac-self-study-questionnaire-2014-2015.doc]ABET”>http://www.abet.org/uploadedFiles/Accreditation/Accreditation_Process/Accreditation_Documents/Current/eac-self-study-questionnaire-2014-2015.doc)</p>
<p>[Things</a> ABET looks for during a site visit](<a href=“http://www.abet.org/on-site-visit/]Things”>On-Site Visit - ABET)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>For example. my Dynamics class’ test averages were 33%, 45%, and 25%. It was curved quite a bit, and still quite a good number of the class failed. I think that class had a 1/3 failure rate. Same with my Thermo class. </p>
<p>Of course, if the averages of the class tests were around 70’s%, they weren’t going to curve the class down. I’ve had 2 engineering classes like that so far (Mechanics of Materials and Intro to Structures), but the standard deviations of those scores were ~15… </p>
<p>The average GPA is ~ 2.8. That being said, a lot of the kids that fail the class don’t come to class, don’t do the homework, don’t do the readings, and cram the night before exams. Kids who put in the work tend to get above a C. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Then unless 1/3 got exactly a C, the average grade was probably a B-. It is a major class but if it’s at a school that’s known for being tough like Purdue or something that is what I would expect. I had a few major classes that had a B- average but a B was more typical I’d say, at least at my school. And unless your GPA scale is different than Michigan, a 2.8 GPA is in between a B- and a B overall, which is again, slightly harsher than average, but not crazily so. Overall in engineering I would expect an average GPA to be about a 2.9-3.0 in most engineering schools. </p>
<p>“a lot of the kids that fail the class don’t come to class, don’t do the homework, don’t do the readings, and cram the night before exams.” Is it possible that different programs have different numbers of students with this attitude, and this may affect the grading scale?</p>
<p>My assumption is that the higher tier private schools have less of these apathetic students because they are weeded out students during the admission process. But I don’t believe the grading scales would change. Misery, as it relates to engineering grading, seems to be quite common for most students nationally. It would be interesting to learn if our international bretherens share these experiences.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That seems to imply that the curve is centered around a B-, or that a C-centered curve extends the C range down to the low end, with only a small percentage getting D or F grades.</p>
<p>It is the case that GPAs tend to go up at higher class levels, since those who do poorly in frosh/soph level courses are most likely to leave the major (and those who do really poorly get dismissed).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>More selective schools tend to have higher grade inflation, although the correlation is not perfect.</p>
<p>From <a href=“http://www.gradeinflation.com”>http://www.gradeinflation.com</a> (at the bottom is a list of schools):</p>
<p>3.61 in 2007 Brown
3.55 in 2005 Stanford
3.51 in 2008 Yale
3.45 in 2005 Harvard
3.44 in 2007 Duke
3.42 in 2006 Columbia
3.36 in 2006 Cornell
3.31 in 2008 Harvey Mudd
3.29 in 2006 Florida
3.28 in 2008 Princeton
3.27 in 2006 Berkeley
3.27 in 2008 Michigan
3.24 in 2006 Johns Hopkins
3.22 in 2008 UCLA
3.21 in 2007 Washington
3.20 in 2007 Wisconsin
3.1943 in 2005 Illinois
3.15 in 2007 Lehigh
3.12 in 2007 Texas
3.07 in 2008 Georgia Tech
3.06 in 2002 Clemson
3.05 in 2005 Rensselaer Polytechnic
3.05 in 2008 Florida State
3.04 in 2008 Ohio State
3.02 in 2006 UC Santa Barbara
2.99 in 2006 Iowa State
2.985 in 2007 Virginia Tech
2.98 in 2004 Missouri University of Science and Technology
2.98 in 2008 Texas A&M
2.974 in 2008 Iowa
2.96 in 2007 North Carolina State
2.92 in 2007 Oregon State
2.90 in 2006 Alabama
2.87 in 2007 Michigan Tech
2.85 in 2008 San Jose State
2.81 in 2006 Purdue
2.791 in 2007 Maryland - Baltimore County
2.75 in 2006 Auburn
2.70 in 2006 California community colleges (systemwide)</p>