<p>Thanks Sakky, for that wealth of information.</p>
<p>"So are you telling the people of this board not to become engineers because you think we're not good enough to make it to management or have a good and satisfying engineering career?"</p>
<p>No, I'm telling people not to go into engineering because engineering WORK is NOT the same as engineering COURSES.... the #1 reason someone becomes an engineer is that they love sciences, math etc!!! That is THEEEEE #1 reason to stay AWAY from engineering-work, because corporate-engineering-work is95% politics, powerpoints, excel spreasheets, butting heads with MBA types etc!!!</p>
<p>It's ironic that people that love engineering courses are more suited to becoming a MD doctor than an engineer! Doctors solve problems all day long, whereas engineers do paperwork 7 hours out of a day.....so if you looovvveee engineering courses, become a DOCTOR! ......if you love finance classes and organization theory, become an engineer!</p>
<p>My entire point is that intellectual engineering students will love the medical field much more than corporate engineering -- that's food for thought...if anybody doesn't believe me, ask your neighbors, uncles, or better yet, go sit in a cubicle for a week in an engineering firm...you'll run (not walk) to med school.</p>
<p>I have a couple of things to say which contradict what you think medical personel do. Firstly, doctors do not solve problems all day. Doctors are trained to administer efficient, repetitive treatments to cure their patients. This requires experience, not pulling inventive solutions out of nowhere. Secondly, doctors also do paperwork 7 hours out of a day. Today's medical industry is heavily influenced by the beauracratic nonsense of insurance companies--and to avoid expensive lawsuits by both insurance companies and patients, doctors have to meticulously take notes about every single thing they do with patients. These notes very often take as much time as the actual "solving problems" as you put it. And by the way--there is absolutely no correlation between engineering courses and becoming a doctor--are you telling people to ignore their passion for what they want to study because they are "medical types"? Finally, engineering is a field where innovation is encouraged. Medicine is a field where innovation can cause deaths and lawsuits up to your neck.</p>
<p>Aehmo, thanks for your response. What's your comment for Sakky's posts? (He wrote some very good points and it would be a shame if you were to dodge his points by just answering my question).</p>
<p>flavian, which of sakky's points did you think were good? Give me the top 1 or 2 and I can address them, but if you read my posts, oh_dad's posts, monydad's posts or uggios's posts, i'm sure you'll find that sakky's arguments have been effectively nullified each and every time.</p>
<p>The big picture of course is that someone shouldn't choose to go into engineering just because of 1 or 2 good points...it's the relevance of those points to what you want to do in life...engineering, without a doubt, is a totally corporate field, where the people that succeed are the ones that can network, can give presentations, can make their bosses look good by schmoozing with other teams etc. Technical abilities are far less important....if you keep the facts in mind, then one or two small points that sakky may get correct in a theoretical sense don't hold water when counted against the big picture.</p>
<p>You are oscillating between two points. You were saying how Engineering is a bad major, and Sakky said how this wasn't true. But then you started arguing about whether an engineering career is good or not.</p>
<p>Engineering Major DOES NOT EQUAL an Engineering Career!!!</p>
<p>For example, I am an engineering major, but I think I will probably not end up as an engineer. I acknowlege many of the stuff you wrote about the disadvantages of Engineering (which you exaggerate, but nontheless have at least half truths) - but I still think that an engineering undergraduate major is one of the best, which is what Sakky is arguing for.</p>
<p>
[quote]
monydad's posts or uggios's posts, i'm sure you'll find that sakky's arguments have been effectively nullified each and every time.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nullified each and every time? I would actually submit that I am the one that has been doing the nullifying. In fact, I would point out that it looks like unggio has been banned from CC, OH_DAD's concerns have all been satisfied (as I think even he himself would admit), and your arguments boil down to 2 points, for which I have 2 rebuttals:</p>
<h1>1) You say that practicing engineers have it bad in the corporate world. But then I would ask, of all people who have just bachelor's degrees, exactly who among them have it good? All of the problems that you pointed out with engineers could just as easily be said about people who work in the corporate world who have English degrees, or History degrees, or PoliSci degrees or Physics degrees any other liberal arts degree.</h1>
<h1>2) You say that people should not major in engineering for undergrad. But then I ask, so what do you recommend people major in?</h1>
<p>As far as I can tell, you have consistently dodged these two questions. I think a lot of us would really like to hear exactly what you think people ought to major in for undergrad, if not engineering. Exactly which undergrad major have you identified that is completely immune to all the problems that you constantly pin on engineering?</p>
<p>"Engineering Major DOES NOT EQUAL an Engineering Career!!!"</p>
<p>If not, then why do 98% of engineering majors end up doing engineering work????? Why do med schools discrimate again engineering majors? Why is the average GPA for engineers much lower than other majors?</p>
<p>"#2) You say that people should not major in engineering for undergrad. But then I ask, so what do you recommend people major in? "</p>
<p>Well, how about declaring majors that will allow you to get into a good, stable industry (such as dentistry, optometry etc.)??? How about declaring majors that med schools won't scoff at when you apply?</p>
<p>98% LoL where did you get that data? I assumeyoure exaggerating again. At my school, of the graduates of engineering going into work:</p>
<p>25%: Financial Services
24%: Engineering
22%: Consulting
19%: Computer Science-related</p>
<p>The number going into engineering is probably higher at other schools, but nowhere near 98%. For those that are perhaps closer to 98%, they may be from schools less connected to business firms, in which their graduates of engineering will have better jobs than other majors.</p>
<p>Medical schools don't "scoff at" engineering majors.</p>
<p>So much for the "decrease" diatribe on Bachelor's Degrees. Looks like the peak was in fact about 78,000 degrees in about 1986, and now we're at about 76,000 degrees. However, this data is probably also suspect - see below Stanford data.</p>
<p>In the meantime, look at Master's Degrees:</p>
<p>Now, Doctorates:</p>
<p>As stated before, I'm still looking for that decreasing size trend at an engineering school!</p>
<p>In fact, I doubt it exists, because, in the spirit of my own proposition regarding data usage and validity, the following STANFORD graph gives a completely different slant:</p>
<p>Take a close look at that second graph entitled "Science and Engineering Bachelor's Degrees by Gender" -- if you totalize the men and women graphs, it's clear that on a "Science and Engineering" basis there has been no decrease at all! Now, for those too young to realize it, the mid-80's was when the PC came on the scene and there was a big uptick in students pushing for "Computer Science" degrees and that push into Comp Sci essentially didn't peak (bust) until the internet bust in around 2000. I would propose that the Comp Sci push did probably pull students from the raw engineering disciplines, but the net "Science and Engineering" inflow most assuredly continued upward. Therefore, the pool of job applicants into "Science and Engineering" job openings would appear to have been on a continuous upward trend during the times others have claimed otherwise. However, even the first graph only shows a temporary pull-back in just engineering. Which school or schools accounted for that pull-back remain of course unidentified.</p>
<p>Since my posts are (recently) trying to stay on the topic, "Engineering Shortage or Not?", I claim again, the inflow looks to be on a continuous upswing, while greater outflow (offshoring), coupled with higher H1B quotas (more inflow) has not been factually disputed to this point.</p>
<p>aehmo, you're assuming everyone wants to go to school forever. Sorry I don't. I don't want to go through med school, I don't want to go through residency, I don't want to deal with malpractice insurance, I don't want to deal with working in a high stress environment or an environment where I just deal with people's problems (most of which will be preventable anyways). This is why I'm not going to be a doctor and go through the hell that is med school with all the psychotic pre-meds that I hate so much.</p>
<p>Also there are a great number of engineers that don't sit in an office and have to solve problems with machines and planning as they happen, there are engineers that create, that design, that research. With a doctor you are pretty much limited to practice of some sort. There isn't that flexibility of an engineering degree. Even if there was who'd want to go into a different career after putting in all of that work to become a doctor.</p>
<p>Look not everyone wants to be or can be a doctor regardless if they like solving problems. Also if engineering majors that do well are more suited to become doctors than why would med school scoff at them. (I know it's probably the GPA but I was just proving a point.)</p>
<p>Also those majors that you named AREN'T majors. As far as I know. You still have to go to additional schooling for dentistry and more schooling for optometry and those aren't majors. Just like med school it is pre-dental designation. I don't know about optometry. That only degree I can think of that is somewhat medical is neuroscience.</p>
<p>I'm not a huge fan of saaky but you aren't answering some very legitimate questions he asks you without skipping around until you say a sentence or two. I think he has had many good points and this thread has gotten so ridiculous because you don't even read them and jump on a stupid phrase so he has to clarify his point and say the same thing over again. I'd just stop Saaky, there's no point. It's not like he's misinforming people b/c no one is listening anyways.</p>
<p>When was the last time you heard of a doctor being laid off?</p>
<p>When was the last time you heard of a nurse being laid off?</p>
<p>When was the last time you heard of an engineer being laid off?</p>
<p>Sakky, you never cease to motivate me by your way out and flat out false accusations.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In fact, I would point out that it looks like unggio has been banned from CC, OH_DAD's concerns have all been satisfied (as I think even he himself would admit),
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Before I start my lengthy post, DO NOT tell me I would agree with anything that you say or post, because I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOUR VIEWS ON ENGINEERING AS A PROFESSION OR AS A CHOICE OF STUDY. Amazing how you never miss an opportunity to twist and misleadingly manipulate our words to support your point of view.</p>
<p>1.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You say that nursing is unionized. I would reiterate that only SOME nursing jobs are unionized. There are plenty of nurses that do not belong to a union.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Total B.S., I never said that the entire nursing industry is unionized.</p>
<p>This is my actual post.<br>
[quote]
I tell u once again, NURSING. (unionized jobs)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Maybe it was not too clear in this specific post, I said nursing is an AWESOME MAJOR, as well as any career choice that is protected by unions. (fireman, policeman and etc )</p>
<p>Look at my previous 11pg. debate w/ sakky
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com...t=115531&page=6%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com...t=115531&page=6</a></p>
<p>2.)</p>
<p>You talk about nursing receiving a lower salary than engineers, here is where YOU ARE WRONG SAKKY.</p>
<p>Your links show salaries from 2002, for RNs making around 48K a yr, it is actually significantly higher now all around the country. What you seem to deliberately miss when analyzing and comparing the salaries between engineering and nursing is the job security. Engineers constantly have to reeducate themselves and definitely get a masters degree in order to remain competitive and employed. Engineers face layoffs and massive insecurity in their professional careers, whereas the salaries for nursing continue to rise and receive national news about the GROWING DEMAND FOR NURSES.</p>
<p>The overall average annual income reported by survey respondents in 2004 is $54,574 More than 25% of 2004 survey respondents earn at least $65,000, a significant difference from what we found in 2003 (15%) and 2001 (8%). Another positive note is that a much larger percentage of women reported earning $75,000 or more in 2004 than in 2003 (11% versus 5%).</p>
<p>What is also left out of this picture is the overtime. My buddies sister works in the bay area, she graduated three years ago as a RN gets 60K a yr salary but because of overtime she takes home almost 100K. just bought a new house with her fiancé.</p>
<p>What happens when the engineer gets laid off for a year, what happens when they try to go for a temp job with out benefits for his family?</p>
<p>These scenarios are not happening to nurses. (again there are exceptions, but in general this is true, I hope you do not scour the web for some esoteric example just to spite me) I always speak in general terms, unless I state explicitly that I am being absolute.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3689/is_200410/ai_n9431354%5B/url%5D">http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3689/is_200410/ai_n9431354</a>
<a href="http://nurse-practitioners.advanceweb.com/common/editorial/editorial.aspx?CC=27264%5B/url%5D">http://nurse-practitioners.advanceweb.com/common/editorial/editorial.aspx?CC=27264</a></p>
<p>better yet check out the Google search results
<a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=average+nursing+salary%5B/url%5D">http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=average+nursing+salary</a></p>
<p>heres another link about a STANFORD GRADUATE HAVING NEGATIVE VIEWS ABOUT ENGINEERING</p>
<p>The research firm Gartner Inc. predicts that up to 15 percent of tech workers will drop out of the profession by 2010, not including those who retire or die. Most will leave because they can't get jobs or can get more money or job satisfaction elsewhere. Within the same period, worldwide demand for technology developers - a job category ranging from programmers people who maintain everything from mainframes to employee laptops - is forecast to shrink by 30 percent.</p>
<p>3.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Hence, I think you have to concede that engineering is a more marketable degree than at least 95% of all the other bachelor's degrees out there.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Thats not what this is about. I have a problem with how you recommend engineering as the perfect undergraduate major, because it will provide opportunities for any graduate school and will provide a perfect fallback option in 4 yrs of college.</p>
<p>Engineering is diminishing in demand, as Ive already provided links above to back up,
Nursing is growing in demand.</p>
<p>
[quote]
plenty of normal people have trouble getting into med-school or law school. Hence, engineering serves as insurance to make sure you get something. You can go choose an easy (but not marketable) degree, and STILL end up not getting into med school or law school. If that happens, what are you going to do now?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If you have the ability to graduate with an engineering degree, youre probably smarter than the majority of people in college or for sure youre at least as capable as the pre med majors in terms of work ethic and raw intelligence. I back this up with my own experiences as well as some of my friends. I aced my physics and engr courses, taking chemistry and memorizing bio is piece of cake to me and many of my engr friends.
So if I majored in easier majors or nursing I would definitely do at least as good GPA wise as I would in engineering. Therefore I would have greater chances of getting admitted into med school if I chose an easy major such as nursing. </p>
<p>
[quote]
You should not be picking on engineers. You should be picking on ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT PREPARING Themselves FOR PROFESSIONAL CAREERS. You ask me not to talk about Art or Film majors. Fine. Then let's talk about all those Physics majors, all those Mathematics majors, all those English majors, all those PoliSci majors. What about them? Not all of them go to law school or med-school. In fact, only a small percentage of them do. Aren't these people also going to have a family and a mortgage to worry about?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I AM NOT picking on any profession, I AM PICKING ON YOUR REASONS FOR recommending engineering to young impressionable students that may be reading these posts. Those art majors, math majors, physics, or whatever should choose their majors and know fully well of all the problems within those professions such as low salaries and lack of job security. However I provided a perfect option for all those ppl out there just looking for money and job security and room for advancement, nursing. With nursing once again, you can go to medical school, optometry, dentistry or just work as a nurse and make a cool 90K in the bay area or in southern cali (where I go to school now).</p>
<p>And again as you said the vast majority of jobs have problems similar to engineering in terms of job instability, low pay, and lack of advancement. Well I sure hope those other professions are offering their employees enough job satisfaction and passion to make up for the lack of other perks. And thats what I am trying to tell young kids. THERE ARE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH THE ENGINEERING PROFESSION. Making sure they understand that they better have that passion for it or they will severely regret their decisions. </p>
<p>Also I can reverse the question on you, why do you keep PROMOTING engineering as one of the best undergraduate majors, but keep downplaying and ignoring the GREAT BENEFITS OF NURSING. With nursing we can parlay it not just into med school but optometry, dentistry as well.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's funny you would say that, but yet you flippantly say that people can just get an accounting degree and then get their MBA. Wouldn't the same logic apply? After all, you get your MBA after you do accounting, and you need people to manage, so why aren't you asking those accountants whether they can be that 1 in 10? [\quote]</p>
<p>Well heres one major difference. People have an easier time acquiring an acct. degree vs. an engr. Degree. Remember that Im *<strong><em>ed off when you recommend engineering to anybody who is looking for job security w/out making sure that they have the personality and passion to do engineering. Say your avg. Joe goes into acct. he will graduate face the exact same problems as engineering in regards to outsourcing, salary, and stability (though it should be less according to my mom, who is an acct.) but he will have had more free time in college to enjoy himself. Whereas engineering is THE toughest major out there and if you dont LOVE engineering, *</em></strong> youre going to hate it by the time u get out. That engr. Grad will also hate having no free time in college because of all the problem sets and extra work that engr students must do relative to business majors.</p>
<p>4.)</p>
<p>I will NOT be talking about the working conditions of a doctor, as I dont really know. I have family friends who are doctors. I have a 2nd cousin who is a microbio phd. At uc davis, but overall I dont know the job satisfaction of a being a M.D. I know this though, those M.D.s dont worry about layoffs outsourcing, and paying the rent each month. Thats not something I can say about my engineering relatives. (I never mentioned this, but my father worked in the electronics industry in the early 80s but quit after 3 yrs, because he hated having to constantly relearn new technology, he also did not have a passion for engineering) however all my uncles work in the engineering field, something Ive already stated before.</p>
<p>5.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Hence, engineers, for all their problems, still have it better than the vast majority of other Americans do. I agree that doctors also have it better than the vast majority of other Americans. I also agree that doctors tend to have it better than engineers do. But it's not a fair comparison because doctors have to go through far more schooling than engineers do. And it's far more difficult to become a doctor than to become an engineer. You keep complaining that my analogies regarding investment banking aren't fair. Well, it's no more unfair than comparing doctors to engineers. Most people can't be investment bankers. On the other hand, most people can't be doctors either.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Maybe becoming a doctor is equal in difficulty as becoming an I-banker. However, if the only purpose is to support a family, have a decent salary, and job stability everybody can become a nurse. It has practically none of the problems that engineering faces.
Hmm, I totally forgot about PAs remember those, physicians assistants start at 65K yrly. But then again we already went over the issue with PAs ad nauseum didnt we?</p>
<p>There is one last thing I want you to ponder.</p>
<p>When was the last time you heard of a doctor being laid off?</p>
<p>When was the last time you heard of a nurse being laid off?</p>
<p>When was the last time you heard of an engineer being laid off?
(as much as I disagree with your views on engineering, i got to thank you for giving me the motivation to write) p.s. im back in black, finals are over</p>
<p>Unggio, I am not going to deny that engineers are laid off more frequently then doctors. That is a fact, and I agree with you on that point. </p>
<p>But I will tell you that there are plenty of students who intended on becoming doctors, got a relatively low G.P.A. and as a result were rejected from every medical school they applied to. On the other hand, I know that there are engineers with similar and probably lower G.P.A.s who proceeded to get high paying jobs right out of college.</p>
<p>u don't understand why i am writing such lengthy posts.
true an engineer with a low gpa can still get a job right out of college with only a 4 yr degree.<br>
question i asked before: can he keep that job past 30 without getting more education and becoming more competitive?</p>
<p>answer is no, i guarantee you will be laid off if you don't reeducate yourself or go for more advanced degrees.</p>
<p>HOWEVER, a nurse will NOT be facing those problems, they are in extremely high demand, go search some of my previous posts, they're going to be short about 120,000 nurses in california alone in 10 years.</p>
<p>first and foremost i always consider whether a job can consistently pay my rent and support my family, engineering does not always offer that as of right now there are about 250,000 unemployed programmers. engineering does not offer that stability, yet nursing does. again nursing does not always have to be parlayed into med school, there is once again optometry school, dentistry, vet school. i don't hear massive layoffs of optometrists, dentists, vets. maybe there are layoffs of dentsits, and vets but nowhere near the level of engineering layoffs.</p>
<p>the reason again, is if you 're choosing an awesome undergrad major based on salary, and job stability, and room for advancement, then that NURSING trumps engineering each and everytime.</p>
<p>sakky before you get into the salaries again, remember this is overtime
there will always be overtime available as long as there is a shortage of nurses. also they're salaries have been increasing every single year.</p>
<p>if you're bright enough and have a strong enough work ethic to be an engineer, you can pretty much definitely succeed in becoming a nurse, or probably acing those nursing classes and making it into medical school.</p>
<p>as a side note, BILLGATES fro microsoft has been touring the country lately at different universities trying to rally students into majoring in CS or IT industry. he claims there is a nationa lshortage of qualified IT engineers. i seriuosly doubt that. it's just that fresh meat with drive downt he salaries even more making everything more profitable for microsoft not the studetns or employees. again right now there are 250,000 unemployed programmers nationwide, these ar people with extensive experience, but yet he bullshyts and tells our lawmakers there's a shortage and wants to ease restrictions for foreign workers via h1-b visas.</p>
<p>so in essence there is NO SHORTAGE of comp sci or info tech workers in the U.S. just a shortage of workers who will work for the dirt cheap salaries that microsoft wants to pay.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I AM NOT picking on any profession, I AM PICKING ON YOUR REASONS FOR recommending engineering to young impressionable students that may be reading these posts. Those art majors, math majors, physics, or whatever should choose their majors and know fully well of all the problems within those professions such as low salaries and lack of job security. However I provided a perfect option for all those ppl out there just looking for money and job security and room for advancement, nursing. With nursing once again, you can go to medical school, optometry, dentistry or just work as a nurse and make a cool 90K in the bay area or in southern cali (where I go to school now).</p>
<p>And again as you said the vast majority of jobs have problems similar to engineering in terms of job instability, low pay, and lack of advancement. Well I sure hope those other professions are offering their employees enough job satisfaction and passion to make up for the lack of other perks. And thats what I am trying to tell young kids. THERE ARE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH THE ENGINEERING PROFESSION. Making sure they understand that they better have that passion for it or they will severely regret their decisions.</p>
<p>Also I can reverse the question on you, why do you keep PROMOTING engineering as one of the best undergraduate majors, but keep downplaying and ignoring the GREAT BENEFITS OF NURSING. With nursing we can parlay it not just into med school but optometry, dentistry as well.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's easy for you to say. In my school, we have a great nursing program, but out of 100 for this class, only like 4-5 guys. Since engineers are mainly men, I don't think you'll convince many here to go do nursing. So then what major is better than engineering?</p>
<p>And again, you're making a lot of generalizations about everything. Different schools are differently connected to the firms/graduate schools and you can't generalize what opportunities are open to all engineers. You referred to the people of this forum being "mislead" by Sakky to chose engineering. However, the people who read these forums are above average and can suceed even in a "relatively weak" field.</p>
<p>honestly i doubt they can succeed in engineering without passion</p>
<p>and about the male to female ratio in nursing, oh my god i would love it if all my classes were 95% female.</p>
<p>unfortunately i was born with an innate penchant for math and science.
honestly, if u ask most college age guys, they love classes that are 95% female.</p>
<p>though that's probably not what you meant about the ratio of guys in nursing, you probably meant to say that nursing has a bad image for men.</p>
<p>true, but hey if the male student is above average like u stated they would succeed in the easy majors and have a decent chance of optometry, med, vet school.</p>
<p>it's not like the image of engineers is that prestigious either, society sees us as introverted nerds, dorks, and socially inept.</p>
<p>The major that is better than engineering is the one you enjoy the most. Sadly, I feel like i hold the minority opinion.</p>
<p>Warning: Off-topic here....</p>
<p>In all my prior posts, I never even thought of the OVERTIME PAY side-effect of Engineering vs. ALL OTHER PROFESSIONALS.</p>
<p>Engineering overtime pay = non-existent (except defense contractors as a result of a lawsuit about 10 years ago which mandates that overtime be paid to government contract engineers, but only after they exceed some reasonable threshold like more than 20% extra hours).</p>
<p>All other professions inherently control and earn/receive overtime pay when they provide services for additional time...Accountant, Attorney, Doctor, Nurse, Fireman, Policeman, blah, blah...they all get paid overtime pretty much beginning the first hour of overtime. Or, they bill for it.</p>
<p>Oh well, another perspective on the engineering conundrum which will no doubt be attacked somehow.</p>
<p>I'm having trouble thinking of another "professional" who does not get overtime compensation, however, in fairness, I think there are some salaried Pharmacists. Any Pharmacists care to ring in on overtime policy?</p>