Engineering Shortage or not?

College Majors Engineering Majors
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If not, then why do 98% of engineering majors end up doing engineering work????? Why do med schools discrimate again engineering majors? Why is the average GPA for engineers much lower than other majors?

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<p>98% of engineers end up doing engineering work? Really? According to the data, the country graduates about 70,000 engineers a year. 2% of that is 1400. You think there are really only 1400 engineers a year who end up doing non-engineering work?</p>

<p>I'll put it to you this way. MIT graduates about 1000 BS engineers a year. About 1/3 go to engineering graduate school. Of the rest, only about 1/2 of them take engineering jobs. Hence, that's about 300 MIT BS engineers who end up working in consulting, banking, or go to law school or (yes) medical school or do other non-engineering jobs. </p>

<p>That's just MIT. Add up the engineers from Stanford, Berkeley, Princeton, and all those other elite engineering schools and I think you will rapidly exceed 1400. </p>

<p>And what's this talk about discriminating against engineering majors? I think a FAR more accurate statement would be discriminating against low-graded majors. Engineering is not the only low-graded major. I would argue that ALL technical majors, including the natural sciences, are graded low. </p>

<p>Which is why I said it before, I'll say it again - engineers don't have it the worst. Natural science majors have it the worst. At least the engineer can get a decent job. The natural science majors can't even do that. </p>

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"#2) You say that people should not major in engineering for undergrad. But then I ask, so what do you recommend people major in? "</p>

<p>Well, how about declaring majors that will allow you to get into a good, stable industry (such as dentistry, optometry etc.)??? How about declaring majors that med schools won't scoff at when you apply?

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<p>And what would that be? Name one. Are you going to come out and name a grade-inflated major like Film Studies?</p>

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In fact, I doubt it exists, because, in the spirit of my own proposition regarding data usage and validity, the following STANFORD graph gives a completely different slant:</p>

<p><a href="http://cse.stanford.edu/class/cs201...statistics.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://cse.stanford.edu/class/cs201...statistics.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Take a close look at that second graph entitled "Science and Engineering Bachelor's Degrees by Gender" -- if you totalize the men and women graphs, it's clear that on a "Science and Engineering" basis there has been no decrease at all! Now, for those too young to realize it, the mid-80's was when the PC came on the scene and there was a big uptick in students pushing for "Computer Science" degrees and that push into Comp Sci essentially didn't peak (bust) until the internet bust in around 2000.

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<p>In this particular case, I think you're offbase. It has been well understood that there has been a veritable explosion in people getting science degrees, especially in Biology or related science degrees (Biochemistry, Genetics, MCB, etc.) But this has nothing to do with engineering, except for the corner case of BioEngineering.</p>

223

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You talk about nursing receiving a lower salary than engineers, here is where YOU ARE WRONG SAKKY.</p>

<p>Your links show salaries from 2002, for RN’s making around 48K a yr, it is actually significantly higher now all around the country.

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<p>Wrong. My data is from 2005.</p>

<p>Again:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nursing2004.com/pt/pt-core/template-journal/nursing/media/46SalarySurvey.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nursing2004.com/pt/pt-core/template-journal/nursing/media/46SalarySurvey.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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What is also left out of this picture is the overtime. My buddies’ sister works in the bay area, she graduated three years ago as a RN gets 60K a yr salary but because of overtime she takes home almost 100K. just bought a new house with her fiancé

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<p>But the question is, do all nurses get overtime? I don't think so. Just because you want to work overtime hours doesn't mean you're going to get it. You actually have to be working in a hospital or a clinic where the demand is stretched such that they ask for you to stick around and do more work . You can't just simply "decide" to hang around the hospital in your free time and then request to get paid for it. </p>

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That’s not what this is about. I have a problem with how you recommend engineering as the perfect undergraduate major, because it will provide opportunities for any graduate school and will provide a perfect fallback option in 4 yrs of college.

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<p>And when did I say that engineering was a perfect undergrad major. Point out the quote where I specifically said that. In fact, I have written many a post talking about the problems of engineering.</p>

<p>However, I maintain that it is still one of the best, if not the best undergraduate major to have. Does that mean it's perfect? Nope, never said it was. But it is still far better than almost every single other one out there, for the reasons that I named.</p>

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If you have the ability to graduate with an engineering degree, you’re probably smarter than the majority of people in college or for sure you’re at least as capable as the pre med majors in terms of work ethic and raw intelligence. I back this up with my own experiences as well as some of my friends. I aced my physics and engr courses, taking chemistry and memorizing bio is piece of cake to me and many of my engr friends.

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<p>Once again, we disagree. In particular, nobody seems to factor in the fact that most engineers come from no-name schools. Look, the guy who graduated last in his engineering class from Montana Tech was probably never going to get into medical school.</p>

<p>I would again submit that only about half of all premeds who even make it to the application stage actually get in somewhere. Even Harvard boasts of only a 90% premed placement rate. And all of that has to do with those premeds who apply. Plenty of people don't even apply because they know they won't get in anywhere. If you have a GPA under a 2.5, you are not going to get in. And even Harvard has some students that have less than a 2.5</p>

<p>The point is, y'all keep talking about medicine as if any old fool can just go and become doctors. Tell that to the half of the premeds who applied and didn't get in anywhere. Obviously these people thought they had a chance, because they took the time and spent the money to apply. Yet of even those people, half of them were wrong. </p>

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So if I majored in easier majors or nursing I would definitely do at least as good GPA wise as I would in engineering. Therefore I would have greater chances of getting admitted into med school if I chose an easy major such as nursing.

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<p>Yeah, maybe greater, but certainly not 'great'. There are plenty of people who take easy majors and still can't get in anywhere. </p>

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I AM NOT picking on any profession, I AM PICKING ON YOUR REASONS FOR recommending engineering to young impressionable students that may be reading these posts. Those art majors, math majors, physics, or whatever should choose their majors and know fully well of all the problems within those professions such as low salaries and lack of job security. However I provided a perfect option for all those ppl out there just looking for money and job security and room for advancement, nursing. With nursing once again, you can go to medical school, optometry, dentistry or just work as a nurse and make a cool 90K in the bay area or in southern cali (where I go to school now).

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<p>First of all, what I find TREMENDOUSLY ironic is that you're now touting nursing. But you're not majoring in nursing. Why not? In fact, from what you've written, you're majoring in engineering. Why? Here you are touting how great nursing is and how engineering is not, and yet YOU'RE MAJORING IN ENGINEERING. What's up with that? Please do tell.</p>

<p>Secondly, do you really think that all those liberal arts majors really know all the pitfalls that await them? Trust me, most don't. Don't believe me? You can just take a stroll around CC and you will see how clueless plenty of liberal arts majors are about their future prospects. And I consider CC users to be an more-informed-than-average group of people.</p>

<p>Hence, the point is, if we can agree on nothing else, we can agree that engineering is more marketable than those other degrees. Why don't you go and pick on those other degrees? </p>

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And again as you said the vast majority of jobs have problems similar to engineering in terms of job instability, low pay, and lack of advancement. Well I sure hope those other professions are offering their employees enough job satisfaction and passion to make up for the lack of other perks. And that’s what I am trying to tell young kids. THERE ARE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH THE ENGINEERING PROFESSION. Making sure they understand that they better have that passion for it or they will severely regret their decisions.

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<p>Nobody is denying that there are problems with engineering. However, those problems are the same problems that almost all other people with just bachelor's degrees face. And that's the point.</p>

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Well here’s one major difference. People have an easier time acquiring an acct. degree vs. an engr. Degree. Remember that I’m *<strong><em>ed off when you recommend engineering to anybody who is looking for job security w/out making sure that they have the personality and passion to do engineering. Say your avg. Joe goes into acct. he will graduate face the exact same problems as engineering in regards to outsourcing, salary, and stability (though it should be less according to my mom, who is an acct.) but he will have had more free time in college to enjoy himself. Whereas engineering is THE toughest major out there and if you don’t LOVE engineering, *</em></strong> you’re going to hate it by the time u get out. That engr. Grad will also hate having no free time in college because of all the problem sets and extra work that engr students must do relative to business majors.

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<p>Oh, I profoundly disagree. Accounting is a b**** of a major. Is it as difficult as engineering? No, probably not. But on the other hand, let's not discount its difficulty. At the end of the day, it's still a highly technical, quantitative major that is inherently difficult. </p>

<p>Look, again, I think we are forgetting that engineering as a whole isn't that hard. Engineering at a top school is hard. But then there are plenty of no-name engineering schools out there, where engineering is much easier.</p>

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Maybe becoming a doctor is equal in difficulty as becoming an I-banker. However, if the only purpose is to support a family, have a decent salary, and job stability everybody can become a nurse. It has practically none of the problems that engineering faces.
Hmm, I totally forgot about PA’s remember those, physician’s assistants start at 65K yrly. But then again we already went over the issue with PA’s ad nauseum didn’t we?

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<p>We did go over the PA route. And I think we agreed that it was not a relevant point, for the simple fact that most PA's already have undergrad degrees in something and then later complete the 2 year PA program. So the PA program effectively becomes a post-graduate program.</p>

<p>"Most applicants to PA programs hold a bachelor’s or master’s degree. "</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos081.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos081.htm#earnings&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>But back to nursing. So basically, you've come up with 1 major that you think can challenge engineering. That's right ONE. Out of the hundreds of available majors out there, you have identified ONE. At worst, that means that engineering is the 2nd-best major out there. You should at least give credit to engineering for that. </p>

<p>Furthermore, for various reasons that I have already stated, I believe that engineering has the edge over nursing. Note, that doesn't mean that I think nursing is bad. It's just that I think that engineering has the edge. Why? Simple. With the available of post-bac BSN programs out there, somebody who already has an engineering degree can become a nurse in just 1 year. However, there is no easy way for a nurse to quickly switch over to engineering. And secondly, engineering is a far more widespread major than is nursing. I don't know too many people who would turn down admission to UC to go to CalState just to get a nursing degree. I don't know too many people who would turn down HYPSMC because they'd rather get a nursing degree from some other school. </p>

<p>However, what I find really ironic is that you say that I shouldn't recommend engineering to people who don't have the passion to do it, and yet here you are recommending nursing to people, but I don't see you talking about passion for nursing as being important. That should cut both ways.</p>

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Engineering overtime pay = non-existent (except defense contractors as a result of a lawsuit about 10 years ago which mandates that overtime be paid to government contract engineers, but only after they exceed some reasonable threshold like more than 20% extra hours).</p>

<p>All other professions inherently control and earn/receive overtime pay when they provide services for additional time...Accountant, Attorney, Doctor, Nurse, Fireman, Policeman, blah, blah...they all get paid overtime pretty much beginning the first hour of overtime. Or, they bill for it.

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<p>First off, the notion that engineers don't get overtime is not true. There are plenty of engineers who are working as hourly contractors, which means that they get overtime pay (or at the very worst, straight pay, but calculated over more than 40 hours a week). </p>

<p>Secondly, yes, I know some nurses that are salaried. More to the point, most doctors and lawyers, especially when they're starting out, are salaried. Lawyers are the easiest case - most lawyers enter law firms where they're expected to work 70+ hours a week in order to make partner - but nobody is paying them overtime to do it. Sure, they may be billing all those hours they work, but they're not getting that money. The law firm is getting that money. </p>

<p>Now I agree that lawyers who make it to partner or enter private practice will bill more hours for more work. But do all lawyers make partner? Do all lawyers enter private practice and succeed? Plenty of lawyers just take salaried staff positions as inhouse counsel at companies. Others work for the government, i.e. in the prosecutor's office, or for some government agency, etc. . None of these lawyers get any overtime. </p>

<p>Or consider the case of doctors. Doctors in residency make something like 40k a year. And yet resident doctors work ridiculous hours. In fact, some states are trying to pass laws that are trying to RESTRICT resident doctors to working "only" 80 hours a week. Yeah, "ONLY" 80 hours. Yet, nobody is paying them overtime for that. If you take a salaried position in a hospital as many doctors do, you don't get any overtime. Hey, if you want to hang out at the hospital after your shift is over and do a few more surgeries, I don't think anybody is going to stop you, but you can't expect to get a fatter paycheck for it. </p>

<p>The same is true for accountants. Most accountants are salaried employees working for accounting firms, or for the accounting departments of companies. None of them make any overtime. </p>

<p>Hence, I would actually argue the exact opposite that you said. Most professions do NOT get overtime, nor can they bill for extra hours. Most professionals are salaried people of some kind. Overtime is actually a much more common feature of blue-collar work.</p>

<p>Now as far as blue-collar jobs like firemen, policemen, and all that. Ok, yes, they make overtime. But so what? You don't need a college degree to get those jobs. There's no such major as "firefighting" or "policing". Surely you're not advocating that everybody should just drop out of school to become cops? Hence, it still leaves open the question that if you want to get an undergraduate degree, it has to be in something. And besides, somebody who gets an engineering degree can decide to become a cop. </p>

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Oh well, another perspective on the engineering conundrum which will no doubt be attacked somehow.

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<p>This is not about 'attacking' anything. I am simply asking for fairness. Fairness because most of the other examples that have been given, like medicine or law, require graduate degrees, whereas engineering does not. That's like me trying to compare college graduates vs. high school graduates and arriving at the conclusion that college graduates are better off, ignoring the fact that to in order to graduate from college, you first have to graduate from high school. </p>

<p>Secondly, ALL of the downsides of engineering have to be discussed in the context of all the other choices you can make out there. People have talked about how engineering is a braindead job where you can get attacked by management, ignoring the fact that MOST jobs out there are braindead jobs where you can get attacked by management. People have talked about how engineers can suffer from layoffs, conveniently ignoring the fact that MOST people with just undergrad degrees can suffer from layoffs. Some have said that engineering is a difficult major that grades harshly, conveniently ignoring the fact that there are plenty of non-engineering majors (like physics) out there that are also difficult and also grade harshly, but I find it funny that nobody wants to say boo about them. </p>

<p>Look, everything has to be put in its proper perspective. If you want to criticize engineering for certain features, then you have to be willing to criticize other majors that exhibit the same features. Most of the supposed problems of engineering that have been pointed out there are not specific to engineering.</p>

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unfortunately i was born with an innate penchant for math and science.
honestly, if u ask most college age guys, they love classes that are 95% female.

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<p>But they don't love it by enough to switch to nursing. There's gotta be a reason for that.</p>

<p>Look, at most schools, guys can always switch to majors that have more girls. Let's face it. You can always switch out of engineering to Art History or French Literature or one of those other majors that have a lot of women in them. But most don't do it. Why? #1 - lack of interest. And #2 (especially for nursing), they don't want to break the 'macho code'. Guys know what I'm talking about when I say that. </p>

<p>Look, whether we like it or not, male nurses have a serious image problem. The fact is, lots of guys are afraid to become nurses because they don't want to be laughed at for taking a "woman's job". Yes, to the women who are reading this, I know that's a bit sexist to say, but, again, I think the guys here know what I'm talking about. Whether we think it's right or not, the fact is, a lot of guys just don't think of nursing as being a "manly" profession. And even if a guy doesn't personally think that way, he will know that other guys will think that way, and that will make him think twice about becoming a nurse. Sad but true.</p>

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true, but hey if the male student is above average like u stated they would succeed in the easy majors and have a decent chance of optometry, med, vet school.

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<p>Nursing is NOT an easy major. The easy majors would be things like Film Studies or Peace and Conflict Studies, etc. So the logical conclusion is that people who want to maximize their chances of getting into med-school should not choose to major in engineering, and not choose to major in nursing, but should choose to major in Film Studies.</p>

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those M.D.’s don’t worry about layoffs outsourcing, and paying the rent each month. That’s not something I can say about my engineering relatives.

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<p>And there it is again - the presumption is that every engineer can just decide to become a doctor. A simple look at the numbers would demonstrate that this is false. 70,000 people get engineering BS degrees in the US. There are only 17,000 US med-school slots that open every year. Even if every single one of those 70,000 people decided that they should try to get into medical school, and the med-schools were to accept only them that would still leave 53,000 of them out in the cold. </p>

<p>Hence, I still don't see how any of us can just flippantly say that everybody should just go become doctors. Very very few people become doctors. That's like saying that everybody should just go win the lottery. Most people can't win the lottery. Most people can't become doctors.</p>

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Also I can reverse the question on you, why do you keep PROMOTING engineering as one of the best undergraduate majors, but keep downplaying and ignoring the GREAT BENEFITS OF NURSING. With nursing we can parlay it not just into med school but optometry, dentistry as well.

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<p>Look, unggio83, I never said that nursing was bad. In fact, I believe nursing can actually be pretty good, however, I continue to maintain that engineering has the edge if, for no other reason, somebody with an engineering degree can become a nurse in 1 year by getting that accelerated BSN degree, but the reverse is not true.</p>

<p>However, fine, have it your way. If I'm going to say that nursing can be a relatively good major to choose, then you ought to say that engineering can be a relatively good major to choose.</p>

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So much for the "decrease" diatribe on Bachelor's Degrees. Looks like the peak was in fact about 78,000 degrees in about 1986, and now we're at about 76,000 degrees.

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<p>But don't you see, Oh_DaD, even if these numbers are correct, it still means that engineering has been declining as a percentage of the number of bachelor's degrees granted. More and more total Americans have been graduating from college, which should not be surprising as the population of the country continues to grow and also as education has become more important to the economy, thereby causing more Americans to want to go to college. Yet even if the number of engineering degrees has remained constant, that must mean that the percentage of engineers has declined.</p>

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As stated before, I'm still looking for that decreasing size trend at an engineering school!

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<p>I'll put it to you this way. I think we all know that from a common sense standpoint, Agriculture Schools have declined. Yet, I rarely if ever run across a school bragging about how it's going to shut down or reduce the size of its agriculture program.</p>

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<p>"And there it is again - the presumption is that every engineer can just decide to become a doctor."</p>

<p>Well, every good engineer CAN become a doctor!!! Engineering is the harshest major...if you're good at the toughest major, becoming a doctor is not that difficult.</p>

<p>Only thing is, you've got to apply! ...without applying, you'll never become a doctor.</p>

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<p>Do professional schools such as medicine and law actually discriminate against engineering undergrads because of some stereotype about engineers (for instance, are they seen as being inflexible, etc?) Or are they underrepresented in the professions because of lower undergrad GPAs? Or maybe something else?</p>

<p>Or, is this just my incorrect perception?.....Thanks!</p>

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<p>Sakky, "engineering" is pretty broad. Do you have different opinions on chem/eecs/biomed/mech? Also, is physics a viable undergraduate major? And if I'd like to leave the door to medical school open, would biomed be better than the others (which are still perfectly fine options)?</p>

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<p>lkf725, it's a GPA thing - a good number of high-gpa'd engineers get into law and med school.</p>

<p>:)</p>

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Only thing is, you've got to apply! ...without applying, you'll never become a doctor.

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<p>To be a doctor, not only you need to have a prolonged, extensive education, you also need to have a devoted time of your life. Being engineers gives you the versality to look at other opportunities, i.e. investing, banking, management, etc. which is generally not an option for doctors. What are you talking about?</p>

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<p>sakky, I don't know about your "macho job" idea. Also, film studies is a lot of work. Have you ever tried to read a movie? Sure, you aren't doing a sheet of problem sets for 30 hours, but it is not so easy as you paint it. The grading tends to be much easier, but you and other engineering people tend to discount aspects of difficulty other than mathematical or scientific exactitude.</p>

<p>rtkysg, the doctor can, after receiving his or her BA/BS degree, look into those fields, too.</p>

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Well, every good engineer CAN become a doctor!!! Engineering is the harshest major...if you're good at the toughest major, becoming a doctor is not that difficult.

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<p>Well first off, like I said, not every engineer is a good one. There are thousands of mediocre engineers out there.</p>

<p>Furthermore, like I said, just look at the numbers. They don't match. There are 70,000 new BS engineers graduating in the US every year. Yet there are only 17,000 med-school openings in the US every year. So even if all these engineers were to apply to med-school and med-schools were to stop admitting bio majors, chem majors, and every other major, and only admitted engineers, that would still leave 53,000 engineers out in the cold, or 75% of them. Should these 53,000 people just go and commit suicide?</p>

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Only thing is, you've got to apply! ...without applying, you'll never become a doctor.

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<p>So basically you're castigating all those people (not just engineers, but all people) who don't apply, is that what you're saying? Again, look at the numbers. 1.3 million new bachelor's degrees are conferred in the US. Yet only about 35,000 applications are sent to US med-schools every year. Hence, that means that 97% of all new graduates don't apply to med-school. Are you saying that all these people are foolish? </p>

<p>That's what I've been saying throughout this entire thread. Aehmo, why are you picking on just the engineers? You should be picking on ALL the people who aren't trying to become doctors.</p>

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<p>I think this subject has been beaten to death several times over. A few reminders:
- please comment on issues and facts, not other members
- if you find yourself quoting someone else in many of your posts, you are probably being overly argumentative. We disabled automatic quoting to avoid this kind of discussion.</p>

<p>Thanks for cooperating.</p>