English at Cal?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
21

<p>BedHead,</p>

<p>why do a few lines and curves on a screen upset you so? if you think im an idiot and you don't want to deal with me, just don't read what i write. but you can't stop me from expressing my view, as long as i don't violate the site rules and i don't think i have.</p>

<p>and why do you think i dislike being a berkeley student? i don't. in fact, i like it A LOT. </p>

<p>but so what? </p>

<p>the germans liked hitler a lot too. he was good for them - for a time. after a while they figured out some of the stuff he did was not too pleasant. i am of the opinion that while berkeley is doing many good things (like giving thousands of students good educations) and is consequently liked by many of its "citizens," it is also doing very bad things (like expelling students for failing classes in majors they are unable to get out of) and thus building up a bad name for itself in many sectors. why does berkeley choose to shine in some areas and suck in others? i thought berkeley was supposed to stand for equality; if the school is sending hundreds of kids to top grad schools and flunking hundreds of others, i say there is inequality. </p>

<p>we don't even have to resort to comparing berkeley to harvard and yale. let's evaluate berkeley on its own merits. is it providing the best education it can to every single undergrad? i say its not and sure, you say so what, if people want the "best" education they'll look for it. but why should students have to try SO MUCH? even you admit that not all students at berkeley are very academically inclined; so then why not devote the resources freed up from academic support for normative students to helping the students doing badly? or encouraging "promising" students into being "excellent" or "superior" students? it is precisely because berkeley has a lot of "sup-par" students that the school should do more to help them out. after all, down south UCLA takes pretty good care of their undergrads. if you flunk out there, you can come back just as long as you get a B or better some classes. if another UC can make it that easy, why can't Berkeley? if UCLA is able to provide openly advertised research positions for undergrads, why can't Berkeley? as has already been mentioned by someone else in this thread, research at berkeley is for some reason hard to find - why is that? the school is research powerhouse, shouldn't it have more undergrads publishing papers? also, why not have some kind of better grad student-undergrad mentorship program? why do l and s students not have assigned faculty advisors? the engineering students have such advisors....why the unberkeley's inequality? </p>

<p>you'll probably dismiss this all as "whining" and thats what it is and what i want it to be. if i perceive a system is in some way rotten im going to speak out against that particularity in the system. why should injustice and bad resource management go unnoticed? berkeley is a public university, meaning much of its money comes from the public - a public that INCLUDES badly performing berkeley undergrads. why should the public be forced to pay for punishment? </p>

<p>overall the point is that yes, if you're this and that kind of student, you can do well at berkeley. if you're not that kind of student (and statistically speaking you shouldn't be) then berkeley probably isn't a good place for you. proceed with caution.</p>

22

<p>Dobby,</p>

<p>I think you make some valid points and I will take them into consideration. I appreciate your warnings and your concerns. I also think Bedhead makes some great points too, and ultimately what I need to do is decide if Berkeley will be right for me. I must admit that I do feel lucky to even be able to consider Berkeley given my academic record in high school, but the prestige issue is not as important to me and it seems to be based much more on graduate programs anyway. I just want to get the best education in those two years, regardless of who gives it to me.</p>

<p>On an aside, I should tell you that you may want to be more wary of Godwin's Law. The Hitler references are really not necessary.</p>

23

<p>Undecided:</p>

<p>The Shakespeare class with over 150 students was a lower division class, no? Its one of the prereqs for the major, or so I thought.</p>

<p>If not, what the hell are 150 students doing in a upper division class? That sounds like a nightmare.</p>

24

<p>
[quote]
the germans liked hitler a lot too. he was good for them - for a time. after a while they figured out some of the stuff he did was not too pleasant.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You are comparing the management of a public institution of higher learning and how its students and others react to it with the Hitler regime and the collective psychosis, or denial, of the German people at that time? Are you serious? Can you understand how some people would find this analogy completely misspecified and how others might be extremely offended that you are likening a system that exterminated 6 million people to an imputed failure of higher education public policy?</p>

<p>
[quote]
and why do you think i dislike being a berkeley student? i don't. in fact, i like it A LOT.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is the statement, combined with the Hitler analogy, that makes me think you need some counseling. I think you feel you're being persecuted or something or possibly it's just run-of-the-mill depression. It worries me. Go back and read your posts. Do you think you are giving people the impression that you like Berkeley a lot? Do you think I crazily misconstrued your feelings?</p>

<p>
[quote]
if you think im an idiot and you don't want to deal with me, just don't read what i write.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You aren't making your statements in a vacuum. You are giving what could be incredibly wrong-headed advice to someone who doesn't have perspective and who is relying on the opinions of others to help him form his perspective. What you say could have a real impact in the life of another person in this forum. And you are so all over the map, saying for instance that you like Berkeley after you've spent a lot of time bellyaching about it. No, I don't have to read what you wrote, but you are feeding your personal angst and hell to someone who may not be able to see it for what it is, your personal situation. It is out of a sense of responsibility to such posters that I am being provocative against you.</p>

<p>Frankly you sound like someone who lives in a fantasy world. You sound like a spoiled brat. I am really not saying that primarily to insult you. I am suggesting you grow up. Maybe it would help if you took a part-time manual labor job and worked with people who don't think a lot about higher education and who wouldn't dream of going to Berkeley. Doing so might ground you. Why don't you try doing it for a semester or two and see if it provides any insights? I am completely serrious.</p>

<p>I am not saying there aren't things to criticize about at Berkeley. I have regularly advised people not to attend Berkeley if I perceived them not to be the right fit; it is after all a challenging place. But what I am saying is your posts are more about you than objective realities at Berkeley, and you hurt yourself.</p>

<p>Now this is my last post on this particular forum. Really.</p>

25

<p>eddyx77: The class was actually upper division, 117. Shakespeare, however, is a required class; you can take it one of several ways (117 which is offered in several flavors, or 17) but there are still only so many sections. It was rather disappointing -- 2 small papers, 1 assignment, and 1 massive final. I definitely wasn't feeling the love then, but it was to be expected with a requirement.</p>

<p>Which is also, by the way, why Chaucer was so big at 70 students. Pre-1800 is also a requirement, and there aren't too many courses offered that cover it.</p>

26

<p>
[quote]
You are comparing the management of a public institution of higher learning and how its students and others react to it with the Hitler regime and the collective psychosis, or denial, of the German people at that time? Are you serious? Can you understand how some people would find this analogy completely misspecified and how others might be extremely offended that you are likening a system that exterminated 6 million people to an imputed failure of higher education public policy?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The point is that no matter how good some things may seem, once we either analyze them in some novel way or have our views changed simply as a function of time or god knows what else, we'll start seeing deficiencies. even mighty harvard and yale, which you seem to think i equate with heaven, have skeletons in their closets. i don't think they are perfect, but i do think they are closer to perfection in more ways than berkeley currently is. personally, i used to think cal was great in every way. now i see that theres tons of room for improvement. whats so wrong about pointing out the bad things? my hope is that someone will read this, get outraged, and strive to improve the system. </p>

<p>
[quote]
This is the statement, combined with the Hitler analogy, that makes me think you need some counseling. I think you feel you're being persecuted or something or possibly it's just run-of-the-mill depression. It worries me. Go back and read your posts. Do you think you are giving people the impression that you like Berkeley a lot? Do you think I crazily misconstrued your feelings?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>im pretty sure im fine, but thanks. my concern is, whos going to take care of the hundreds of cal students who DO need counseling and arent getting it? ive heard that tang center counseling is only good for 4 times and after that you get kicked out and sent to a private practice. who came up with THAT genius idea?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Go back and read your posts. Do you think you are giving people the impression that you like Berkeley a lot? Do you think I crazily misconstrued your feelings?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I just don't understand why if i give a negative evaluation of something, it necessarily means i dislike its relation to me. all im trying to say is that some undergrads at berkeley do extraordinarily well, but the school makes it pretty easy for some undergrads to do extraordinarily bad. in my view, the school should at least do something to drastically reduce the large number of students who do badly. as far as i can tell, this is not happening and hasn't been happening for decades.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You aren't making your statements in a vacuum. You are giving what could be incredibly wrong-headed advice to someone who doesn't have perspective and who is relying on the opinions of others to help him form his perspective. What you say could have a real impact in the life of another person in this forum. And you are so all over the map, saying for instance that you like Berkeley after you've spent a lot of time bellyaching about it. No, I don't have to read what you wrote, but you are feeding your personal angst and hell to someone who may not be able to see it for what it is, your personal situation. It is out of a sense of responsibility to such posters that I am being provocative against you.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>alright then, you are free to provide an alternative point of view. i support that. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Frankly you sound like someone who lives in a fantasy world. You sound like a spoiled brat. I am really not saying that primarily to insult you. I am suggesting you grow up. Maybe it would help if you took a part-time manual labor job and worked with people who don't think a lot about higher education and who wouldn't dream of going to Berkeley. Doing so might ground you. Why don't you try doing it for a semester or two and see if it provides any insights? I am completely serrious.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>earlier in this thread im pretty sure i said that pretty much all of my babbling is really only applicable to those interested in going onto academic fields. so, if some people are not able to go to berkeley and yet want to do so, im sorry; i certainly didn't create capitalism. im giving very specific advise for those who want to go to grad school in this country. the OP seems to have realzie that so you should be happy s/he has enough intellectual maturity to evaluate my posts in ways that are beneficial to her.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I am not saying there aren't things to criticize about at Berkeley. I have regularly advised people not to attend Berkeley if I perceived them not to be the right fit; it is after all a challenging place. But what I am saying is your posts are more about you than objective realities at Berkeley, and you hurt yourself.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What evidence do you have that the unfortunate events described in my posts have happened to me? im not about to publish my biography online but trust me, im doing quite well at berkeley. but unlike many other top performers who pat themselves in the back after hearing about others' failures, i oftentimes get pretty upset. why do some people support an unjust status quo? oftentimes because they know they can gain from it. students at the top of the math 1a curve KNOW that no matter what, a set percentage of their classmates are going to get Fs. thats like, 100 less people competing for the same med school slot. why must those poor kids get Fs? I say give everyone, especially freshmen, who demonstrates that they have tried their hardest at least a C so they can actually hope to graduate.</p>

<p>overall, you can get a great education at berkeley if you are proactive. if you are not, you will probably be like the majority and get an "average" education. but beware, since you probably don't want a bad education you cant keep mess up more than once or twice because berkeley's fangs will burst out from where you least expect them.</p>

27

<p>It kind of sucks that pre-1800 classes are big because I like pre-1800 lit the best.</p>

28

<p>why doesn't everyone who has complaints about berkeley just do something about it instead of *****ing about it on here? the school has the size and resources to change things, and, i would be willing to bet my dinner on the assumption that you probably wrote something about wanting to "make the world a better place" in the essay that got you in there. there are worse institutions than cal. if you don't like it so much that you are discouraging students from applying, transfer! by the way, two of my brother's roommates his frosh year turned down "better" institutions for cal: harvard and yale. not every school is perfect, so deal with it.</p>

29

<p>Ditto, karabear1, which is why you'll find that many of us medieval lit kids take a good chunk of our classes outside the department. :)</p>

30

<p>
[quote]
why doesn't everyone who has complaints about berkeley just do something about it instead of *****ing about it on here?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>what do you suggest? to the best of my knowledge, some people on this board have in fact tried to improve berkeley. they have mostly failed because hardly anybody in the administration or ASUC seems to care about these issues.</p>

<p>
[quote]
the school has the size and resources to change things

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Does it? Is there a forum where undergrad grievances can be voiced and policy can be changed? now of course there is at least one, but is it effective? </p>

<p>
[quote]
and, i would be willing to bet my dinner on the assumption that you probably wrote something about wanting to "make the world a better place" in the essay that got you in there.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>no, i did not. </p>

<p>
[quote]
there are worse institutions than cal.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>the mere existance of worse institutions than cal does not justify cal failing to live up to its potential.</p>

<p>
[quote]
if you don't like it so much that you are discouraging students from applying, transfer!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>i don't think anyone on this thread is discouraging students from applying, there is simply some advice on how to keep berkeley for ruining one's life.</p>

<p>
[quote]
by the way, two of my brother's roommates his frosh year turned down "better" institutions for cal: harvard and yale.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But the real question is, who wins the cross-admit battles as a whole? </p>

<p>
[quote]
not every school is perfect, so deal with it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>just because we know that "perfection" is pretty hard if not impossible to achieve, does not mean that we should not strive for it.</p>